Tour update- conversation with Amma 06/20/03

July 1, 2003

Namah Shivaya all,

It has been a divine time with Amma so far on the tour . I managed by Her grace

to attend Her programs starting with the Seattle retreat and the evening

programs at San Ramon . Amma is as usual ever fresh and beautiful . I guess most

of you would have kept up with the updates at Amma.org .

I want to repeat here a wonderful conversation some of my friends and I had

with Amma on the night of June 20th here in San Ramon. I had just been telling

some friends about how nice it would be if I could just walk up to Amma and talk

to Her from the side ... well that night She answered my prayer- I went up to

Her on the side to ask a personal question- then sat there and with a few

friends next to me had a conversation with Her for the next couple of hours that

has filled me up with all the answers that I perhaps ever need.

Here is what happened.

As i was sitting next to Amma, the conversation somehow went to the topic of

householder devotees. As many of you know, Amma usually jokes about married life

being like a bullock cart- one of the spouses is the bull that draws the cart,

the other spouse is the cart and the children are the luggage the cart carries.

Amma sometimes jokingly asks people to get married and says ' Mattu vandi

ottura'-"Go drive the bullock cart".

She had just joked like that with someone- and someone asked Her "Amma, if the

spouses are the bull and the cart respectively, WHO IS THE DRIVER?"

Amma replied " LIFE!"

Amma then said "Life is the driver. Life will give you blows and teach you

how to pull the cart!"

At which point I asked : "Amma if YOU drive the cart then there is no problem

isnt it?"

Amma replied " YES. BUT NO ONE WANTS TO GIVE ME THE ROPE TO CONTROL THE CART.

THEY RUN AWAY BEFORE I CAN TIE THE ROPE ON THEM".

She was referring to the rope that the bull is tied with- in India you will see

the bullock carts with the rope tied through the bull's nose.

Amma said "They run away before I can tie the rope"- meaning very few

surrender to Her and allow Her to drive the cart .

So I asked Her " Amma how does surrender( saranagati) happen?".

Amma replied "When you are hungry You will eat"-( I took it to mean that when

you are hungry for God, surrender will happen).

Amma then added "When you are hungry you will eat.... Saranagati- ..... that is

very difficult".

My friend Ullas asked Her "Amma if husband and wife are both spiritual

minded, then isnt spiritual life possible after marriage?"

Amma replied " Valara nalladu- thats very nice. if both of them are spiritual

minded then thats a very happy circumstance- very good . But they shouldn't

increase their attachments. - If they start having children and distract

themselves with attachments, then that may lead to problems". Amma probably

referred to the fact that there are many householder disciples of Hers who

practice celibacy and lead spiritual lives or practice celibacy after having

their first child .

At this point in the conversation, Nandu walked in and the topic changed to

Vedanta.

Amma saw Nandu and said "Oh the vedantin has walked in" - and then asked him

"What is vedanta?"

" Amma doesn't know any vedanta.. People merely read books and preach vedanta

without practicing ".

I said "Amma- you see the Yourself in all beings and hug them all- isnt this

vedanta?- what you do is vedanta in practice".

Amma ignored that comment and spoke again :

"Some people read books and they dont practice anything- they mere

mouth'vedanta'. They say 'I am not the body' but their mouth waters if they see

a delicious dish - they merely read books, dont do sadhana, lose their tempers

all the time, dont cultivate virtues, ... and call themselves vedantins'.

( I was wondering if She was referring to me! )

Amma continued" Even Ramana Maharishi , who is accepted as a great vedantin

talked about puja and japa- in his work the Upadesa Saram , Ramana says first

the aspirant starts with puja, then japa, then tapas- then only when the mind is

in 'leenasthithi'- in an absorbed state does the time come for Self enquiry'.

'People read vedanta, and decry bhakti- but they walk around Arunacahala like

Sri Ramana did- isnt that bhakti- seeing God in a stone?"

" In the olden days the Guru used to make the students study the shastras for

20 years. Only after 20 years of study, to a few selected worthy disciples the

Guru used to give the Brahma Sutras- ( vedantic text on brahman). But nowadays

people just buy a copy of the brahma Sutras and read them and dont practice

anything".

Amma then gave a few startling comments on Her own role- " In Ramana

Maharishi's case a few advanced disciples came to Him and asked him spiritual

questions. So he talked vedanta to them. In Amma's case thousands come- and they

ask Me all sorts of questions-what job to take, should i buy a house, can i get

a girlfriend etc etc- how can I talk vedanta to them?- all kinds of people come

to Amma- doctors, lawyers, engineers, clerks-prostitutes, thieves ...... Can

Amma start talking vedanta to all of them? Amma has to come to their level and

talk to them".

Amma again said " I have descended into the market place".( the crowd laughed

). "I am not selling diamonds now- i have to start selling trivial things, then

give people the diamonds when they are ready for it".

Then Amma drew a great comparison - "Krishna was also like this- He had to talk

to everyone about their dharma- to the student, to the teacher, to the soldier

etc.. He too had to deal with the masses".

I felt this was a great comparision and just then the conversation literally

took off :

Nandu asked Amma:" Amma, some people say that realizing God is greater than

Realizing Brahman. Is this true?"

Amma said" No they are the same- but one can have a vision of God- Iswara

Darsan but still not give up the ego and be fully realized- like Namdev".

( Amma was referring to the saint Namdev who used to visions of Sri Krishna but

still did not give up his ego- he became fully realized only after that).

At this point, by sheer grace , I was inspired to ask what i think is THE

question of my life:

" AMMA, YOU TALK ABOUT PEOPLE WHO GET A VISION OF GOD- ISWARA DARSHAN- AMMA,

WE ARE SEEING YOU NOW IN FRONT OF US- WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SEEING YOU

AND HAVING A VISION OF GOD?"

AMMA looked at me and very simply and spontaneously replied :

"That depends upon your Manobhava- attitude . ..... Arjuna saw Krishna only

as a friend- but later on when he realized the truth, he saw Krishna as God".

We were all stunned by the answer. I was blown away by the utter simplicity of

the reply- The comparision again between Krishna and Herself- and the

reference to Arjuna's point of view.

Pressing the point, I asked another question:

"Amma, then how how does one develop the attitude to see you as God?".

Amma replied " GET LOST!" ( in tamil She said 'Nee Poda ".) "Amma doesnt

want

anyone to see Her as God. On the contrary Amma wants to see all of you as God

and worship you as such. Today people will call me God- tomorow they will call

me something else. Amma knows who has real faith and who is giving mere lip

service-when Amma tests them, then the truth will come out -if they really feel

what they say. Amma is not interested in anyone calling Her God".

The conversation ended there - frankly i was too stunned by that reply of

Hers. Basically She was saying that like Arjuna saw Krishna as a friend first

we are seeing Her as a normal person. But when he realized the truth He saw who

Krishna really was. Similarly , depending upon our manobhava, Amma is either a

simple lady from India- or if we realize the truth- we will see who She really

is - a manifestation of God.

Jai Ma

bala

SBC DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!

July 4, 2003

> Amma again said " I have descended into the market place".( the

crowd laughed ). "I am not selling diamonds now- i have to start

selling trivial things, then give people the diamonds when they are

ready for it".

>

Bala, I was sitting around Amma when the first part of the

conversation happened. I could not hear anything after "Nandu" showed

up; BTW is this "nandu" the same as Vallath Nandakumar on this list?

And you Bala, must be person with strong, baritone voice, walking

around with a radio handset(i think you also did the arati one day)-

anyhow nice to meet you all, though could not introduce myself then.

In that hymn to the Mother of incomparable beauty, Saundarya Lahiri,

Adi Shankara says that in various paths such as Saiva, Vaishnava,..

etc bhoga(wordly enjoyment) and moksha go in opposite directions and

only in the path of the Mother one can have both bhoga and moksha.

So the above statement that Amma made clearly proves her identity and

as the universal Mother, all her children can demand of Her both

worldly enjoyment and moksha:-)

Aum Namasivaya

yogaman

July 7, 2003

Dear Yogaman

Yes Amma can give both Bhukti and Mukti- material and spiritual fulfilment-

but in either case, we have to make some initial effort and call upon Her

sincerely. Amma recently told my friends ( during Santa Fe Devi bhava) that we

have to put forth effort and then She willl help. But the initial effort should

come from us.

I am sorry for the delay in replying, i just got back from a weekend in dallas

..

Yes I do have a strong baritone voice( my friends joke that i must have

swallowed a mike when i was young) - but i did not walk around with a radio or

handset , and i did not get a chance to Arati this time. So you must be

mistaking me for someone else. However, I hope to be in chicago next weekend by

Her grace, :-) and if you are there , we can probably meet. I hope i meet Kenna

too . And yes 'Nandu' is Vallath Nandakumar- a good friend of mine , reputed

for his honest innocent questions that he regales Amma with .

In Amma,