Guest guest Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 <<<In sadhana, it's important to continually remind ourselves that it's never about the Guru or anyone else, it's always about us >>> I have to disagree with comment. I agree with those who say it is perfectly acceptable to critique the use of money in Amma's org. But we need a real analysis based on long-term observations by qualified people. At one time in the 70s or 80s I bought a book called "Charity USA" which analyzed how effeciently various charities used their donations, including their overhead versus the amount that went to real tangible help. That's the kind of approach we need here. However, religious charities can operate tax free, with little or not oversight, so its very difficult to know what is happening. The fact that much of the money goes to India may doubly complicate this. If you are really concerned, you might do some web reseach on the charities run by the Indian-American community in the US, and see if they have any thoughts on which secular charities are doing the most to help people in India, and make your donations accordingly. This is a perfectly legitimate concern. Having said that, from what I've read about Amma's charities, she seems very astute on how to best use the money. The question remains, how much of the money is actually being used. Personally, I'm so happy to see Hindus taking on a role that Christians have dominated in India, I'm pretty tolerant of mistakes that are made in the process of learning how to run complex and expensive charities. --==-=- Jai Ma----= Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 In a message dated 9/15/2003 5:09:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time, djames writes: > <<I'm kind of the one who started this because of someone I read using > some anon's vicious attack against Amma's use of money. I've been > involved with other spiritual groups where money was abused and > there wasn't any knowledge going on because of the undemocratic > nature of those organizations. In other words, some people were > given the power and others were kept in the dark, as if we aren't > all equally intelligent. This pervasive attitude in spiritual groups > led me to throw up my hands around 1980>>> I agree with this comment. It's the top-down hierarchical model, the anti-democratic nature of spiritual groups that opens them up to potential abuse. They have no accountability. This is compounded in the Hindu traditions because the gurus are often viewed unrealistically, even divinized...so how are you going to critique a God-man or God-woman? In my opinion, this is when the potential for abuses are the greatest. Whether we are talking about the cover-ups for sexual abuse in the Catholic church, fund raising by televangelists, or whatever, we got to keep our eyes open and make our concerns be heard. Still, from what I've seen so far, Amma's group APPEARS to be doing good work. In America, where disposable incomes are high, charities are big business and they have developed boards of directors, fireable Executive Directors, and other oversight committees that analyze all aspect of the organizations. But also keep in mind that these are often well paid professionals who run these organizations. Indian gurus and their abstract-thinking disciples often have little or no experience in running a not-for-profit organiztion. Donate, but keep your eyes and ears open. ----=-= om==-=- Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 Hello, Dear Ones, In reading all the negative posts about Amma's "financial empire" and the posts coming to her defense, what I feel is the most important thing to remember is that the Guru is a mirror reflecting back to us those places within ourselves where we squirm in discomfort because we have an inner attachment to that about which we feel uncomfortable. If we cringe at the Guru's handling of money which has been freely donated to her as an act of love, we can USE our discomfort by examining within ourselves our own subconscious beliefs about our personal relationships with money. What would be more productive on a sadhana level than trying to defend Amma (who 'needs' no defense), is to use this experience as a opportunity to explore the meaning and power we ascribe to money, our beliefs about helping the poor and the inequities of mundane Life, our readiness to believe the worst about someone else (especially the Guru) and what it says about our levels of fear, our need to feel protected by having money, etc. This is the way we llearn to rest in the Self--by examining all those ways we create separation in our mind based on subconscious fear. Money is such a powerful ego attachment that having our attitudes towards it brought to light by the Guru to examine in such a profound way by her willingness to be the focal point for our inner exploration, is grace in action in my opinion. In sadhana, it's important to continually remind ourselves that it's never about the Guru or anyone else, it's always about us and how we respond to life in all its forms, and from what place within us. It's not easy, but it's always rewarding in the end! Love, Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 Ammachi, "pamkowal" <kowalsbuff@m...> wrote: > Hello, Dear Ones, > In reading all the negative posts about Amma's "financial > empire" and the posts coming to her defense, what I feel is the most > important thing to remember is that the Guru is a mirror reflecting > back to us those places within ourselves where we squirm in > discomfort because we have an inner attachment to that about which we > feel uncomfortable. I'm kind of the one who started this because of someone I read using some anon's vicious attack against Amma's use of money. I've been involved with other spiritual groups where money was abused and there wasn't any knowledge going on because of the undemocratic nature of those organizations. In other words, some people were given the power and others were kept in the dark, as if we aren't all equally intelligent. This pervasive attitude in spiritual groups led me to throw up my hands around 1980, pushed over the edge by images of Rajneesh and his 80 Rolls Royces. And it's been Amma that restored my faith in a guru that didn't have a dark side. So it's a bit of a personal issue with me. If we cringe at the Guru's handling of money > which has been freely donated to her as an act of love, we can USE > our discomfort by examining within ourselves our own subconscious > beliefs about our personal relationships with money. For me, honestly, the guru is higher consciousness, and I see us all as adults, not children, and we all DO need to have a sense of how money is being handled in Amma's organization, not to just trust that Amma and a handful of people are doing the right thing, not that they aren't but people should be aware of what is going on since we really are all equally intelligent beings. I'm pretty democratic in that regard. A spiritual communist, without any heirarchy at the top. What would be > more productive on a sadhana level than trying to defend Amma > (who 'needs' no defense), is to use this experience as a opportunity > to explore the meaning and power we ascribe to money, our beliefs > about helping the poor and the inequities of mundane Life, our > readiness to believe the worst about someone else (especially the > Guru) and what it says about our levels of fear, our need to feel > protected by having money, etc. This is the way we llearn to rest in > the Self--by examining all those ways we create separation in our > mind based on subconscious fear. Money is such a powerful ego > attachment that having our attitudes towards it brought to light by > the Guru to examine in such a profound way by her willingness to be > the focal point for our inner exploration, is grace in action in my > opinion. In sadhana, it's important to continually remind ourselves > that it's never about the Guru or anyone else, it's always about us > and how we respond to life in all its forms, and from what place > within us. It's not easy, but it's always rewarding in the end! I'm concerned that people don't know what's actually going on and then you can't make an intelligent rebuttal when someone says something. Oh, you're part of that group that does x, y, and z? And if you've completely delegated even being aware to others, then what can you say that will not make you look mindcopped? I love Amma, but sometimes I hear some things that make me question whether people are being responsible enough for their own lives, on a practical level of thinking. > Love, Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 Thank you Pam for your posting. It is right on target. After reading the posting questioning the organization around Amma, and how it handles money, my mind went nuts. First anger at the writer, then doubts about those around Amma, then even questioning my faith in Amma. Wow! Do I have money issues! So... I have been looking at all this (and the workings of my mind) for a few days. I believe that Amma gives us unlimited, and individually tailored opportunities to get our "stuff" out in the open, to examine it, and see it clearly. Here I got to look at my personal relationship with my Guru, my fears of being taken advantage of, my vulnerablity to criticism, and my sometimes weak faith in Amma, who I say I dearly love. "Om lila-vinodinyai namaha"...Salutations to She who delights in Her sport. Thanks again Amma for playing with my mind and ego, and for purifying and healing me in the process. Jai Ma! Omana Ammachi, "pamkowal" <kowalsbuff@m...> wrote: > Hello, Dear Ones, > In reading all the negative posts about Amma's "financial > empire" and the posts coming to her defense, what I feel is the most > important thing to remember is that the Guru is a mirror reflecting > back to us those places within ourselves where we squirm in > discomfort because we have an inner attachment to that about which we > feel uncomfortable. If we cringe at the Guru's handling of money > which has been freely donated to her as an act of love, we can USE > our discomfort by examining within ourselves our own subconscious > beliefs about our personal relationships with money. What would be > more productive on a sadhana level than trying to defend Amma > (who 'needs' no defense), is to use this experience as a opportunity > to explore the meaning and power we ascribe to money, our beliefs > about helping the poor and the inequities of mundane Life, our > readiness to believe the worst about someone else (especially the > Guru) and what it says about our levels of fear, our need to feel > protected by having money, etc. This is the way we llearn to rest in > the Self--by examining all those ways we create separation in our > mind based on subconscious fear. Money is such a powerful ego > attachment that having our attitudes towards it brought to light by > the Guru to examine in such a profound way by her willingness to be > the focal point for our inner exploration, is grace in action in my > opinion. In sadhana, it's important to continually remind ourselves > that it's never about the Guru or anyone else, it's always about us > and how we respond to life in all its forms, and from what place > within us. It's not easy, but it's always rewarding in the end! > Love, Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 Namaskar, Omana-ji. It happens that I've been engaged in almost identical discussions as Don, but on another list, and this same scandal sheet was posted there as well. It would be presumptuous to think that Amma's good name depends in any way on our feeble efforts at dispelling these aspersions. The Refuge is the refugee's defense, not vice-versa. I agree as regards the sadhak's view of these things, but from the perspective of vyavaharika, the empirical world, it is well to try and give some answer refuting slanders against one's guru. And there's also the merit of one begger telling another where to find food - and trying to remove a few obstacles on the way. I suppose it comes down to the character of one's relationship to Amma at any given time. I appreciate the level of the discussion that has developed around these concerns. It has really been quite helpful. Regards, Ramlal On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 18:27:12 +0000, Omana <eveningstar8 wrote: > Thank you Pam for your posting. It is right on target. > > After reading the posting questioning the organization around Amma, > and how it handles money, my mind went nuts. First anger at the > writer, then doubts about those around Amma, then even questioning my > faith in Amma. Wow! Do I have money issues! > > So... I have been looking at all this (and the workings of my mind) > for a few days. I believe that Amma gives us unlimited, and > individually tailored opportunities to get our "stuff" out in the > open, to examine it, and see it clearly. Here I got to look at my > personal relationship with my Guru, my fears of being taken advantage > of, my vulnerablity to criticism, and my sometimes weak faith in > Amma, who I say I dearly love. > > "Om lila-vinodinyai namaha"...Salutations to She who delights in Her > sport. Thanks again Amma for playing with my mind and ego, and for > purifying and healing me in the process. > > Jai Ma! > Omana > > Ammachi, "pamkowal" <kowalsbuff@m...> wrote: >> Hello, Dear Ones, >> In reading all the negative posts about Amma's "financial >> empire" and the posts coming to her defense, what I feel is the > most >> important thing to remember is that the Guru is a mirror reflecting >> back to us those places within ourselves where we squirm in >> discomfort because we have an inner attachment to that about which > we >> feel uncomfortable. If we cringe at the Guru's handling of money >> which has been freely donated to her as an act of love, we can USE >> our discomfort by examining within ourselves our own subconscious >> beliefs about our personal relationships with money. What would be >> more productive on a sadhana level than trying to defend Amma >> (who 'needs' no defense), is to use this experience as a > opportunity >> to explore the meaning and power we ascribe to money, our beliefs >> about helping the poor and the inequities of mundane Life, our >> readiness to believe the worst about someone else (especially the >> Guru) and what it says about our levels of fear, our need to feel >> protected by having money, etc. This is the way we llearn to rest > in >> the Self--by examining all those ways we create separation in our >> mind based on subconscious fear. Money is such a powerful ego >> attachment that having our attitudes towards it brought to light by >> the Guru to examine in such a profound way by her willingness to be >> the focal point for our inner exploration, is grace in action in my >> opinion. In sadhana, it's important to continually remind > ourselves >> that it's never about the Guru or anyone else, it's always about us >> and how we respond to life in all its forms, and from what place >> within us. It's not easy, but it's always rewarding in the end! >> Love, Pam > > > Sponsor > > > Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha! > > Ammachi > > > > > This message has been processed by Firetrust Benign. -- Aum Amriteshvaryai Namah! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 Your POV is one valid way of looking at it, but not the only one! You are talking IMO about the impact these concerns and allegations might have on one with a solid spiritual practice relative to Amma. However, the approach you describe of considering everything a spiritual lesson is also commonly seen used and exploited by problematic cults, whose followers also "freely donate money as an act of love" which is then used for ignoble purposes. Don's reply about responsibility is on target, IMO! There are other aspects to consider in relation to serving Amma besides just if they are true or not, and that is how these issues might appear for those who are becoming acquainted with Amma who are rightly concerned about problematic cults. Quoting from 'Amma': "A true Spiritual Master is beyond the mind and the ego. In such a master, all the sexual energy has been coverted into pure vital energy, whuch he or she uses for the ultimate good of the world...All desires exist in the mind. Once the mind is dissolved, there can be no question of having any desires. In that state no desire remains. The so-called gurus who exploit their disciples--sexually or otherwise, or who try to force their ideas on people are not true masters--far from it! They are still strongly identified with their minds and desires..." "A true master, even though he or she is byond all laws and limitations, must strictly adhere to moral and ethical codes." "...A number of the Westerners she hed healed had suffered from betrayal by spiritual leaders who abused them financially, sexually or emotionally. Spiritual betrayal is one of the deepest wounds that one can inflict on another, and one of the hardest to heal. Amma says that many have lost their faith in spiritual masters and spirituality because of these incidents. But she has counseled those so wounded not to lose faith or give up hope--that the energy they devoted to their spiritual practice, even under a false master, was not wasted. She says: "The power you have acquired through your spiritual practices is stll there, because...what you have gained through your own efforts cannot be lost. Only being in the presence of a Self- Realized master can heal the deep wounds of the heart, which have been caused by a false guru or spiritual teacher." "A person so healed of spiritual betrayal will receive the necessary strength to prevent them from ever being hurt again, because they will no longer be vulnerable to those psychological wounds. Sincere seekers who have the mental strength, courage and spiritual understanding to overcome their initial shock and disappointment, realize that they made an unfortunate mistake in trusting a false teacher. The genuine seeker will immediately leave the false teacher and search for a perfect master who can lead him or her to the goal of God-Realization. Such a seeker will certainly find a real master. The master will appear in his or her life, without them having to wander about looking for a teacher. This will happen because of the disciple's sincerity amd intense longing..." Here, without naming names, Amma has clearly described the false teacher and what they do, and the effects of what they do, and her healing function in these cases, in recognizable terms. Most seekers, at least in the West, have either been betrayed by one or more of the many such false spiritual teachers, with cults of enthusiastic followers, who exhibit certain siddhis along with binding spiritual experiences, or are otherwise aware of those who have experienced such betrayal, and who are therefore rightly sensitive to any hint of scandal by so-called enlightened gurus. Most experienced people by now are aware that spiritual experiences are not proof of enlightenment; that enthusiastic devotees talking about how great the experiences are, describing unverifiable "proofs", and with elaborate rationalizations, can be found in many cults; that sometime gurus have "secrets"; and that organizational problems can exist even around 'real' Gurus. To not discuss the information needed to address concerns promptly and directly, or to not recognize possible cultic tendencies of avoidance simply because Amma is 'real', is insufficient, IMO. Many outside this group value Amma while remaining vigilant about cultic aspects in the organization. And, I know of an extreme case, discussed on another forum, where someone became disillusioned during Devi Bhava because of the crowd control practices despite a sense of the benign presence. Others may come, take a look at all the goods being sold, and at Amma driving up in an expensive vehicle, have no knowledge of the finances and if they are used as advertised, and have reasonable concerns because there are classic cultic appearances in public gatherings. If charges are made and the correct information is not rapidly available to respond, many people will draw inferrences from their own past experiences, valid or not. "Only being in the presence of a Self-Realized master can heal the deep wounds of the heart, which have been caused by a false guru or spiritual teacher." I believe doing what serves facilitating those so previously harmed to be in Amma's presence to be healed by recognizing when to simply tell the truth about Amma in response to these allegations s appropriate service. But to do this, the full truth must be discussed and known, and any problems resolved to the best of the collective ability. Ammachi, "pamkowal" <kowalsbuff@m...> wrote: > Hello, Dear Ones, > In reading all the negative posts about Amma's "financial > empire" and the posts coming to her defense, what I feel is the most > important thing to remember is that the Guru is a mirror reflecting > back to us those places within ourselves where we squirm in > discomfort because we have an inner attachment to that about which we > feel uncomfortable. If we cringe at the Guru's handling of money > which has been freely donated to her as an act of love, we can USE > our discomfort by examining within ourselves our own subconscious > beliefs about our personal relationships with money. What would be > more productive on a sadhana level than trying to defend Amma > (who 'needs' no defense), is to use this experience as a opportunity > to explore the meaning and power we ascribe to money, our beliefs > about helping the poor and the inequities of mundane Life, our > readiness to believe the worst about someone else (especially the > Guru) and what it says about our levels of fear, our need to feel > protected by having money, etc. This is the way we llearn to rest in > the Self--by examining all those ways we create separation in our > mind based on subconscious fear. Money is such a powerful ego > attachment that having our attitudes towards it brought to light by > the Guru to examine in such a profound way by her willingness to be > the focal point for our inner exploration, is grace in action in my > opinion. In sadhana, it's important to continually remind ourselves > that it's never about the Guru or anyone else, it's always about us > and how we respond to life in all its forms, and from what place > within us. It's not easy, but it's always rewarding in the end! > Love, Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 Which newsgroup are you all talking about: http://www.globalserve.net/~sarlo/RatingsD.htm#amma - Sarlo's Guru Ratings. or eXSY/ or both or something else? Ammachi, "medshanti" <medshanti> wrote: > Your POV is one valid way of looking at it, but not the only one! You > are talking IMO about the impact these concerns and allegations might > have on one with a solid spiritual practice relative to Amma. > However, the approach you describe of considering everything a > spiritual lesson is also commonly seen used and exploited by > problematic cults, whose followers also "freely donate money as an > act of love" which is then used for ignoble purposes. Don's reply > about responsibility is on target, IMO! There are other aspects to > consider in relation to serving Amma besides just if they are true or > not, and that is how these issues might appear for those who are > becoming acquainted with Amma who are rightly concerned about > problematic cults. Quoting from 'Amma': > > "A true Spiritual Master is beyond the mind and the ego. In such a > master, all the sexual energy has been coverted into pure vital > energy, whuch he or she uses for the ultimate good of the world...All > desires exist in the mind. Once the mind is dissolved, there can be > no question of having any desires. In that state no desire remains. > The so-called gurus who exploit their disciples--sexually or > otherwise, or who try to force their ideas on people are not true > masters--far from it! They are still strongly identified with their > minds and desires..." > > "A true master, even though he or she is byond all laws and > limitations, must strictly adhere to moral and ethical codes." > > "...A number of the Westerners she hed healed had suffered from > betrayal by spiritual leaders who abused them financially, sexually > or emotionally. Spiritual betrayal is one of the deepest wounds that > one can inflict on another, and one of the hardest to heal. Amma says > that many have lost their faith in spiritual masters and spirituality > because of these incidents. But she has counseled those so wounded > not to lose faith or give up hope--that the energy they devoted to > their spiritual practice, even under a false master, was not wasted. > She says: "The power you have acquired through your spiritual > practices is stll there, because...what you have gained through your > own efforts cannot be lost. Only being in the presence of a Self- > Realized master can heal the deep wounds of the heart, which have > been caused by a false guru or spiritual teacher." > > "A person so healed of spiritual betrayal will receive the necessary > strength to prevent them from ever being hurt again, because they > will no longer be vulnerable to those psychological wounds. Sincere > seekers who have the mental strength, courage and spiritual > understanding to overcome their initial shock and disappointment, > realize that they made an unfortunate mistake in trusting a false > teacher. The genuine seeker will immediately leave the false teacher > and search for a perfect master who can lead him or her to the goal > of God-Realization. Such a seeker will certainly find a real master. > The master will appear in his or her life, without them having to > wander about looking for a teacher. This will happen because of the > disciple's sincerity amd intense longing..." > > Here, without naming names, Amma has clearly described the false > teacher and what they do, and the effects of what they do, and her > healing function in these cases, in recognizable terms. Most seekers, > at least in the West, have either been betrayed by one or more of the > many such false spiritual teachers, with cults of enthusiastic > followers, who exhibit certain siddhis along with binding spiritual > experiences, or are otherwise aware of those who have experienced > such betrayal, and who are therefore rightly sensitive to any hint of > scandal by so-called enlightened gurus. Most experienced people by > now are aware that spiritual experiences are not proof of > enlightenment; that enthusiastic devotees talking about how great the > experiences are, describing unverifiable "proofs", and with elaborate > rationalizations, can be found in many cults; that sometime gurus > have "secrets"; and that organizational problems can exist even > around 'real' Gurus. To not discuss the information needed to address > concerns promptly and directly, or to not recognize possible cultic > tendencies of avoidance simply because Amma is 'real', is > insufficient, IMO. > > Many outside this group value Amma while remaining vigilant about > cultic aspects in the organization. And, I know of an extreme case, > discussed on another forum, where someone became disillusioned during > Devi Bhava because of the crowd control practices despite a sense of > the benign presence. Others may come, take a look at all the goods > being sold, and at Amma driving up in an expensive vehicle, have no > knowledge of the finances and if they are used as advertised, and > have reasonable concerns because there are classic cultic appearances > in public gatherings. If charges are made and the correct information > is not rapidly available to respond, many people will draw > inferrences from their own past experiences, valid or not. > > "Only being in the presence of a Self-Realized master can heal the > deep wounds of the heart, which have been caused by a false guru or > spiritual teacher." I believe doing what serves facilitating those so > previously harmed to be in Amma's presence to be healed by > recognizing when to simply tell the truth about Amma in response to > these allegations s appropriate service. But to do this, the full > truth must be discussed and known, and any problems resolved to the > best of the collective ability. > > > Ammachi, "pamkowal" <kowalsbuff@m...> wrote: > > Hello, Dear Ones, > > In reading all the negative posts about Amma's "financial > > empire" and the posts coming to her defense, what I feel is the > most > > important thing to remember is that the Guru is a mirror reflecting > > back to us those places within ourselves where we squirm in > > discomfort because we have an inner attachment to that about which > we > > feel uncomfortable. If we cringe at the Guru's handling of money > > which has been freely donated to her as an act of love, we can USE > > our discomfort by examining within ourselves our own subconscious > > beliefs about our personal relationships with money. What would be > > more productive on a sadhana level than trying to defend Amma > > (who 'needs' no defense), is to use this experience as a > opportunity > > to explore the meaning and power we ascribe to money, our beliefs > > about helping the poor and the inequities of mundane Life, our > > readiness to believe the worst about someone else (especially the > > Guru) and what it says about our levels of fear, our need to feel > > protected by having money, etc. This is the way we llearn to rest > in > > the Self--by examining all those ways we create separation in our > > mind based on subconscious fear. Money is such a powerful ego > > attachment that having our attitudes towards it brought to light by > > the Guru to examine in such a profound way by her willingness to be > > the focal point for our inner exploration, is grace in action in my > > opinion. In sadhana, it's important to continually remind > ourselves > > that it's never about the Guru or anyone else, it's always about us > > and how we respond to life in all its forms, and from what place > > within us. It's not easy, but it's always rewarding in the end! > > Love, Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 Ammachi, "Don James" <djames@t...> wrote: For me, honestly, the guru is higher consciousness, and I see us all > as adults, not children, and we all DO need to have a sense of how > money is being handled in Amma's organization, not to just trust > that Amma and a handful of people are doing the right thing, not > that they aren't but people should be aware of what is going on > since we really are all equally intelligent beings. I'm pretty > democratic in that regard. A spiritual communist, without any > heirarchy at the top. > > I'm concerned that people don't know what's actually going on and > then you can't make an intelligent rebuttal when someone says >something. Oh, you're part of that group that does x, y, and z? And if you've completely delegated even being aware to others, then what can you say that will not make you look mindcopped? I love Amma, but > sometimes I hear some things that make me question whether people > are being responsible enough for their own lives, on a practical > level of thinking. > Don Dear Don and others: Yours is such a responsible stance to take especially post 9/11 when the Saudi Royal family was questioned about providing funds for a 'student' for medicine and food, when really the money ended up helping one of the hijackers who brought down the WTC. Also, post 9/11, law enforcement is keeping a tab on newsroom chatter to identify the leader-can-do-no-wrong groups where blind faith is encouraged and enforced and any doubts raised about the leader is squashed with a sledge hammer. In the light of this, Don, I think your post is very responsible. Thank you for posting it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 23:39:08 +0000, markasme <markasme wrote: > Which newsgroup are you all talking about: > http://www.globalserve.net/~sarlo/RatingsD.htm#amma - Sarlo's Guru > Ratings. > or > eXSY/ > or both or something else? The discussions I'm involved in are at eXSY. The major threads are "Over moderation and censorship = Space Odysessey 2001" and "Financial irregularities in Ammachi's charities". Not sure where Don's are. The scandal sheet originated at http://pub78.ezboard.com/fsrfwalrusfrm33.showMessage? and is also referenced on Sarlo's page. Regards, Ramlal -- Aum Amriteshvaryai Namah! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Ramlal, Thank you for the site info. There are some beautiful testimonials to Amma on eXSY - stuff you wouldn't read about here. I am so proud that ammachi has touched SO many lives. Must caution you, though, there are a few posts that are critical (but critical is good) about amma's organization and maybe we can learn from them. The ex-SYers got burnt on the spiritual path and maybe we can avoid the mistakes they made and make ammachi's the best organization there is i.e. if we all try. Here are the posts: 408; 1688; 1724; 1754; 1783; 1796; 1799; 1806; 1808; 1815; 1821; 1826; 1847; 1860; 1861; 1868; 1884; 2018; 2019; 2199; 2286; 2287; 2288; 2289; 2290; 2294; 2297; 2326; 2336; 2361; 2369; 2373; 2382; 2383; 2384; 2387; 2388; 2389; 2392; 2393; 2404; 2456; 2471; 2473; 2571; 2578; 2580; 2615; 2618; 2723 2855; 2861; 2908; 2969; 2970; 2971; 2972; 2978; 2990; 2991 3009; 3106; then follow the major threads "Over moderation and censorship = Space Odysessey 2001" and "Financial irregularities in Ammachi's charities". Ammachi, Ramlal <conte@i...> wrote: > On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 23:39:08 +0000, markasme <markasme> wrote: The discussions I'm involved in are at eXSY. The major threads are "Over moderation and censorship = Space Odysessey 2001" and "Financial irregularities in Ammachi's charities". > > Not sure where Don's are. > > The scandal sheet originated at > http://pub78.ezboard.com/fsrfwalrusfrm33.showMessage? and is also > referenced on Sarlo's page. > > Regards, > Ramlal > -- > Aum Amriteshvaryai Namah! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Medshanti, To those who have questions about Amma, Her organization, and how donations are managed I say, "Go for it"! Look where you need to look, and doubt what you need to doubt. At the end of your search may all your questions be answered, your doubts be resolved, and may you be at peace. As for me, and me only, I will remember the innumberable spiritual gifts that Amma has given me free of charge, without asking, and definately without earning. And every day of my life may I express my gratitude to Her for finding me and bringing me into Her arms. Jai Ma! Omana Ammachi, "medshanti" <medshanti> wrote: > Your POV is one valid way of looking at it, but not the only one! You > are talking IMO about the impact these concerns and allegations might > have on one with a solid spiritual practice relative to Amma. > However, the approach you describe of considering everything a > spiritual lesson is also commonly seen used and exploited by > problematic cults, whose followers also "freely donate money as an > act of love" which is then used for ignoble purposes. Don's reply > about responsibility is on target, IMO! There are other aspects to > consider in relation to serving Amma besides just if they are true or > not, and that is how these issues might appear for those who are > becoming acquainted with Amma who are rightly concerned about > problematic cults. Quoting from 'Amma': > > "A true Spiritual Master is beyond the mind and the ego. In such a > master, all the sexual energy has been coverted into pure vital > energy, whuch he or she uses for the ultimate good of the world...All > desires exist in the mind. Once the mind is dissolved, there can be > no question of having any desires. In that state no desire remains. > The so-called gurus who exploit their disciples--sexually or > otherwise, or who try to force their ideas on people are not true > masters--far from it! They are still strongly identified with their > minds and desires..." > > "A true master, even though he or she is byond all laws and > limitations, must strictly adhere to moral and ethical codes." > > "...A number of the Westerners she hed healed had suffered from > betrayal by spiritual leaders who abused them financially, sexually > or emotionally. Spiritual betrayal is one of the deepest wounds that > one can inflict on another, and one of the hardest to heal. Amma says > that many have lost their faith in spiritual masters and spirituality > because of these incidents. But she has counseled those so wounded > not to lose faith or give up hope--that the energy they devoted to > their spiritual practice, even under a false master, was not wasted. > She says: "The power you have acquired through your spiritual > practices is stll there, because...what you have gained through your > own efforts cannot be lost. Only being in the presence of a Self- > Realized master can heal the deep wounds of the heart, which have > been caused by a false guru or spiritual teacher." > > "A person so healed of spiritual betrayal will receive the necessary > strength to prevent them from ever being hurt again, because they > will no longer be vulnerable to those psychological wounds. Sincere > seekers who have the mental strength, courage and spiritual > understanding to overcome their initial shock and disappointment, > realize that they made an unfortunate mistake in trusting a false > teacher. The genuine seeker will immediately leave the false teacher > and search for a perfect master who can lead him or her to the goal > of God-Realization. Such a seeker will certainly find a real master. > The master will appear in his or her life, without them having to > wander about looking for a teacher. This will happen because of the > disciple's sincerity amd intense longing..." > > Here, without naming names, Amma has clearly described the false > teacher and what they do, and the effects of what they do, and her > healing function in these cases, in recognizable terms. Most seekers, > at least in the West, have either been betrayed by one or more of the > many such false spiritual teachers, with cults of enthusiastic > followers, who exhibit certain siddhis along with binding spiritual > experiences, or are otherwise aware of those who have experienced > such betrayal, and who are therefore rightly sensitive to any hint of > scandal by so-called enlightened gurus. Most experienced people by > now are aware that spiritual experiences are not proof of > enlightenment; that enthusiastic devotees talking about how great the > experiences are, describing unverifiable "proofs", and with elaborate > rationalizations, can be found in many cults; that sometime gurus > have "secrets"; and that organizational problems can exist even > around 'real' Gurus. To not discuss the information needed to address > concerns promptly and directly, or to not recognize possible cultic > tendencies of avoidance simply because Amma is 'real', is > insufficient, IMO. > > Many outside this group value Amma while remaining vigilant about > cultic aspects in the organization. And, I know of an extreme case, > discussed on another forum, where someone became disillusioned during > Devi Bhava because of the crowd control practices despite a sense of > the benign presence. Others may come, take a look at all the goods > being sold, and at Amma driving up in an expensive vehicle, have no > knowledge of the finances and if they are used as advertised, and > have reasonable concerns because there are classic cultic appearances > in public gatherings. If charges are made and the correct information > is not rapidly available to respond, many people will draw > inferrences from their own past experiences, valid or not. > > "Only being in the presence of a Self-Realized master can heal the > deep wounds of the heart, which have been caused by a false guru or > spiritual teacher." I believe doing what serves facilitating those so > previously harmed to be in Amma's presence to be healed by > recognizing when to simply tell the truth about Amma in response to > these allegations s appropriate service. But to do this, the full > truth must be discussed and known, and any problems resolved to the > best of the collective ability. > > > Ammachi, "pamkowal" <kowalsbuff@m...> wrote: > > Hello, Dear Ones, > > In reading all the negative posts about Amma's "financial > > empire" and the posts coming to her defense, what I feel is the > most > > important thing to remember is that the Guru is a mirror reflecting > > back to us those places within ourselves where we squirm in > > discomfort because we have an inner attachment to that about which > we > > feel uncomfortable. If we cringe at the Guru's handling of money > > which has been freely donated to her as an act of love, we can USE > > our discomfort by examining within ourselves our own subconscious > > beliefs about our personal relationships with money. What would be > > more productive on a sadhana level than trying to defend Amma > > (who 'needs' no defense), is to use this experience as a > opportunity > > to explore the meaning and power we ascribe to money, our beliefs > > about helping the poor and the inequities of mundane Life, our > > readiness to believe the worst about someone else (especially the > > Guru) and what it says about our levels of fear, our need to feel > > protected by having money, etc. This is the way we llearn to rest > in > > the Self--by examining all those ways we create separation in our > > mind based on subconscious fear. Money is such a powerful ego > > attachment that having our attitudes towards it brought to light by > > the Guru to examine in such a profound way by her willingness to be > > the focal point for our inner exploration, is grace in action in my > > opinion. In sadhana, it's important to continually remind > ourselves > > that it's never about the Guru or anyone else, it's always about us > > and how we respond to life in all its forms, and from what place > > within us. It's not easy, but it's always rewarding in the end! > > Love, Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Omana, I am not claiming doubts about Amma herself have any basis in fact. What I am saying is that there are many false teachers out there with clever teachings, shakti powers and charisma whose walk does not match the talk. This is not so apparent from the outside because the followers of these types are perfectly willing to rationalize with myth rather than fact. Often the main evidence of this is a small number of accounts of the disillusioned. Similar testimonials as yours can be found from followers even in known problematic cults where the evidence is fairly clear. IMO, the claims against Amma get far more attention than they should because such claims are often valid in the cases of many gurus. However, in Ammas case the charges gain undeserved credibility to outsiders primarily because they are not promptly rebutted point by point as soon as they appear in the naive belief that it is obvious to all sincere people they are false. Case in point, the "he is the sun, I am the moon" claim about what Amma said that caused such controversy about Amma here earlier could have been easily resolved by someone posting some simple reasearch that shows that the "Amma" who actually said it is in fact another "Amma", not our Ammachi at all. Silence is not always golden when dealing with practical matters. Jai Ma! medshanti Ammachi, "Omana" <eveningstar8@h...> wrote: > Medshanti, > To those who have questions about Amma, Her organization, and how > donations are managed I say, "Go for it"! Look where you need to > look, and doubt what you need to doubt. At the end of your search may > all your questions be answered, your doubts be resolved, and may you > be at peace. > > As for me, and me only, I will remember the innumberable spiritual > gifts that Amma has given me free of charge, without asking, and > definately without earning. And every day of my life may I express my > gratitude to Her for finding me and bringing me into Her arms. > > Jai Ma! > Omana > > Ammachi, "medshanti" <medshanti> wrote: > > Your POV is one valid way of looking at it, but not the only one! > You > > are talking IMO about the impact these concerns and allegations > might > > have on one with a solid spiritual practice relative to Amma. > > However, the approach you describe of considering everything a > > spiritual lesson is also commonly seen used and exploited by > > problematic cults, whose followers also "freely donate money as an > > act of love" which is then used for ignoble purposes. Don's reply > > about responsibility is on target, IMO! There are other aspects to > > consider in relation to serving Amma besides just if they are true > or > > not, and that is how these issues might appear for those who are > > becoming acquainted with Amma who are rightly concerned about > > problematic cults. Quoting from 'Amma': > > > > "A true Spiritual Master is beyond the mind and the ego. In such a > > master, all the sexual energy has been coverted into pure vital > > energy, whuch he or she uses for the ultimate good of the > world...All > > desires exist in the mind. Once the mind is dissolved, there can be > > no question of having any desires. In that state no desire remains. > > The so-called gurus who exploit their disciples--sexually or > > otherwise, or who try to force their ideas on people are not true > > masters--far from it! They are still strongly identified with their > > minds and desires..." > > > > "A true master, even though he or she is byond all laws and > > limitations, must strictly adhere to moral and ethical codes." > > > > "...A number of the Westerners she hed healed had suffered from > > betrayal by spiritual leaders who abused them financially, sexually > > or emotionally. Spiritual betrayal is one of the deepest wounds > that > > one can inflict on another, and one of the hardest to heal. Amma > says > > that many have lost their faith in spiritual masters and > spirituality > > because of these incidents. But she has counseled those so wounded > > not to lose faith or give up hope--that the energy they devoted to > > their spiritual practice, even under a false master, was not > wasted. > > She says: "The power you have acquired through your spiritual > > practices is stll there, because...what you have gained through > your > > own efforts cannot be lost. Only being in the presence of a Self- > > Realized master can heal the deep wounds of the heart, which have > > been caused by a false guru or spiritual teacher." > > > > "A person so healed of spiritual betrayal will receive the > necessary > > strength to prevent them from ever being hurt again, because they > > will no longer be vulnerable to those psychological wounds. Sincere > > seekers who have the mental strength, courage and spiritual > > understanding to overcome their initial shock and disappointment, > > realize that they made an unfortunate mistake in trusting a false > > teacher. The genuine seeker will immediately leave the false > teacher > > and search for a perfect master who can lead him or her to the goal > > of God-Realization. Such a seeker will certainly find a real > master. > > The master will appear in his or her life, without them having to > > wander about looking for a teacher. This will happen because of the > > disciple's sincerity amd intense longing..." > > > > Here, without naming names, Amma has clearly described the false > > teacher and what they do, and the effects of what they do, and her > > healing function in these cases, in recognizable terms. Most > seekers, > > at least in the West, have either been betrayed by one or more of > the > > many such false spiritual teachers, with cults of enthusiastic > > followers, who exhibit certain siddhis along with binding spiritual > > experiences, or are otherwise aware of those who have experienced > > such betrayal, and who are therefore rightly sensitive to any hint > of > > scandal by so-called enlightened gurus. Most experienced people by > > now are aware that spiritual experiences are not proof of > > enlightenment; that enthusiastic devotees talking about how great > the > > experiences are, describing unverifiable "proofs", and with > elaborate > > rationalizations, can be found in many cults; that sometime gurus > > have "secrets"; and that organizational problems can exist even > > around 'real' Gurus. To not discuss the information needed to > address > > concerns promptly and directly, or to not recognize possible cultic > > tendencies of avoidance simply because Amma is 'real', is > > insufficient, IMO. > > > > Many outside this group value Amma while remaining vigilant about > > cultic aspects in the organization. And, I know of an extreme case, > > discussed on another forum, where someone became disillusioned > during > > Devi Bhava because of the crowd control practices despite a sense > of > > the benign presence. Others may come, take a look at all the goods > > being sold, and at Amma driving up in an expensive vehicle, have no > > knowledge of the finances and if they are used as advertised, and > > have reasonable concerns because there are classic cultic > appearances > > in public gatherings. If charges are made and the correct > information > > is not rapidly available to respond, many people will draw > > inferrences from their own past experiences, valid or not. > > > > "Only being in the presence of a Self-Realized master can heal the > > deep wounds of the heart, which have been caused by a false guru or > > spiritual teacher." I believe doing what serves facilitating those > so > > previously harmed to be in Amma's presence to be healed by > > recognizing when to simply tell the truth about Amma in response to > > these allegations s appropriate service. But to do this, the full > > truth must be discussed and known, and any problems resolved to the > > best of the collective ability. > > > > > > Ammachi, "pamkowal" <kowalsbuff@m...> wrote: > > > Hello, Dear Ones, > > > In reading all the negative posts about Amma's "financial > > > empire" and the posts coming to her defense, what I feel is the > > most > > > important thing to remember is that the Guru is a mirror > reflecting > > > back to us those places within ourselves where we squirm in > > > discomfort because we have an inner attachment to that about > which > > we > > > feel uncomfortable. If we cringe at the Guru's handling of money > > > which has been freely donated to her as an act of love, we can > USE > > > our discomfort by examining within ourselves our own subconscious > > > beliefs about our personal relationships with money. What would > be > > > more productive on a sadhana level than trying to defend Amma > > > (who 'needs' no defense), is to use this experience as a > > opportunity > > > to explore the meaning and power we ascribe to money, our beliefs > > > about helping the poor and the inequities of mundane Life, our > > > readiness to believe the worst about someone else (especially the > > > Guru) and what it says about our levels of fear, our need to feel > > > protected by having money, etc. This is the way we llearn to rest > > in > > > the Self--by examining all those ways we create separation in our > > > mind based on subconscious fear. Money is such a powerful ego > > > attachment that having our attitudes towards it brought to light > by > > > the Guru to examine in such a profound way by her willingness to > be > > > the focal point for our inner exploration, is grace in action in > my > > > opinion. In sadhana, it's important to continually remind > > ourselves > > > that it's never about the Guru or anyone else, it's always about > us > > > and how we respond to life in all its forms, and from what place > > > within us. It's not easy, but it's always rewarding in the end! > > > Love, Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Ammachi, "Omana" <eveningstar8@h...> wrote: > > > As for me, and me only, I will remember the innumberable spiritual > gifts that Amma has given me free of charge, without asking, and > definately without earning. And every day of my life may I express my > gratitude to Her for finding me and bringing me into Her arms. > > Jai Ma! > Omana > Hear, Hear! I concur completely! While I can understand a person's need to feel that their love is well-placed, I also believe that love is never ILL-placed. "What is not love is always fear, regardless of the form it takes." (A Course in Miracles). Love, Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Indeed, spiritual values like love, faith and trust are unconditional. They do not depend on the other, they are part of your very being. If you have conditions like I will donate only if Amma accounts for every penny it receives then it's not true charity, I will only love if the other person appreciates it or if other is not a sinner is not true love. Though all of us do this we should strive for the higher. When you feel like giving just give don't judge before giving then it's not pure and unconditional. If you have that attitude your giving will create a change in the person who receives it, the very act will bring a change for good - either you or the other. - "pamkowal" <kowalsbuff <Ammachi> Tuesday, September 16, 2003 3:10 PM Re: Money issues > > > Hear, Hear! I concur completely! While I can understand a person's > need to feel that their love is well-placed, I also believe that love > is never ILL-placed. "What is not love is always fear, regardless of > the form it takes." (A Course in Miracles). Love, Pam Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha! > > Ammachi > > > Your use of is subject to > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 JAI MA!! Message: 18 Tue, 16 Sep 2003 19:31:24 -0000 "Omana" <eveningstar8 Re: Money issues Medshanti, To those who have questions about Amma, Her organization, and how donations are managed I say, "Go for it"! Look where you need to look, and doubt what you need to doubt. At the end of your search may all your questions be answered, your doubts be resolved, and may you be at peace. As for me, and me only, I will remember the innumberable spiritual gifts that Amma has given me free of charge, without asking, and definately without earning. And every day of my life may I express my gratitude to Her for finding me and bringing me into Her arms. Jai Ma! Omana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Ammachi, "Ravi Chivukula" <ravichivukula@a...> wrote: > Indeed, spiritual values like love, faith and trust are unconditional. They > do not depend on the other, they are part of your very being. > > If you have conditions like I will donate only if Amma accounts for every > penny it receives then it's not true charity, I will only love if the other > person appreciates it or if other is not a sinner is not true love. Though > all of us do this we should strive for the higher. When you feel like giving > just give don't judge before giving then it's not pure and unconditional. If > you have that attitude your giving will create a change in the person who > receives it, the very act will bring a change for good - either you or the > other. > Ravi, That was very beautifully said. Thank you. Love, Pam > - > "pamkowal" <kowalsbuff@m...> > <Ammachi> > Tuesday, September 16, 2003 3:10 PM > Re: Money issues > > > > > > > Hear, Hear! I concur completely! While I can understand a person's > > need to feel that their love is well-placed, I also believe that love > > is never ILL-placed. "What is not love is always fear, regardless of > > the form it takes." (A Course in Miracles). Love, Pam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha! > > > > Ammachi > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Thank you Pam. It's not my personal experience but what I have inferred from being with Amma and reading spiritual books. - "pamkowal" <kowalsbuff <Ammachi> Tuesday, September 16, 2003 4:19 PM Re: Money issues > Ammachi, "Ravi Chivukula" <ravichivukula@a...> > wrote: > > Indeed, spiritual values like love, faith and trust are > unconditional. They > > do not depend on the other, they are part of your very being. > > > > If you have conditions like I will donate only if Amma accounts for > every > > penny it receives then it's not true charity, I will only love if > the other > > person appreciates it or if other is not a sinner is not true love. > Though > > all of us do this we should strive for the higher. When you feel > like giving > > just give don't judge before giving then it's not pure and > unconditional. If > > you have that attitude your giving will create a change in the > person who > > receives it, the very act will bring a change for good - either you > or the > > other. > > > > > Ravi, > That was very beautifully said. Thank you. Love, Pam > > > > > > - > > "pamkowal" <kowalsbuff@m...> > > <Ammachi> > > Tuesday, September 16, 2003 3:10 PM > > Re: Money issues > > > > > > > > > > > Hear, Hear! I concur completely! While I can understand a > person's > > > need to feel that their love is well-placed, I also believe that > love > > > is never ILL-placed. "What is not love is always fear, > regardless of > > > the form it takes." (A Course in Miracles). Love, Pam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha! > > > > > > Ammachi > > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha! > > Ammachi > > > Your use of is subject to > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 Ammachi, "Don James" <djames@t...> wrote: > > I'm kind of the one who started this ..... we all DO need to have >a sense of how money is being handled in Amma's organization, not >to just trust that Amma and a handful of people are doing the right >thing,..........I'm concerned that people don't know what's >actually going on and if you've completely delegated even being >aware to others... Hi Don, Here is something for you: Kerala Ranks High in Foreign Donations http://www.newindpress.com/Newsitems.asp? ID=IER20030725140931&Page=R&Title=Kerala&rLink=0 ALAPPUZHA, July 26, 2003: As many as 1,474 organizations in Kerala received foreign contributions totaling US$75 million during 2000- 2001. Almost 90 per cent of them belong to the Christian community. Gospel for Asia tops the list of organizations in Kerala to receive foreign contributions worth $12 million, followed by Mata Amritanandamayi Mission with $4.8 million. At the all-India level, 14,598 associations received foreign contributions amounting to $945 million during the year. Sri Sathya Sai Central Trust, Andhra Pradesh, received the highest amount of foreign contribution ($18.4 million) followed by World Vision India, Tamil Nadu ($17.8 million) and Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society India, Maharashtra ($15.6 million). The list of donor countries is headed by USA ($310 million), followed by UK ($141 million), Germany ($143 million), Italy ($56 million) and Netherlands ($47 million). The organizations include missionary agencies, social service organizations, convents, orphanages, hospitals, archdioceses, dioceses, ashrams, seminaries, educational institutions, bala bhavans and charitable trusts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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