Guest guest Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 Namah Shivaya Yesterday was Amma's birthstar. In india we celebrate the birthstar day as the birthday, so we had a puja here at M.A center. It saddened me to see any number of useless posts on the finances of Amma's ashram etc and not even one wishing her a happy birthday. Dear 'markasme'- when you say "Surely Amma must be getting a portion of all the donations'- i am tempted to say 'Surely you have no idea of Amma's selflessness'.. you probably have never met Amma before.. i dont know, but when you say something like that with a 'surely' please make sure that your allegation is founded in fact. Amma wears her body out giving darshan. She suffers a lot of physical pain by just giving darshan. You compared her to a grocery clerk who stands for 8 hours. No grocery clerk i know of, will wear his/her body away voluntarily. No grocery clerk i know of goes without sleep for up to a month or sleeps for 2 hours, hardly eats and does all this for 30 years . Grocery clerks, and others work hard because they HAVE TO- Amma works herself out in pure sacrifice. If she were after money or if she were attached to money, as you seem to suggest, she would have retired long ago and would be living luxuriously in some resort somewhere- but she continues to live in the same room built for her 20 years ago, continues to wear her body out night and day, continues to give solace to millions and continues to meet one and all unmindful of the physical strain. I know of nobody else who could have hugged a leper and licked his wounds and cured him. I know of no one who can cure dieseases with a touch, can grant visions, can coordinate the inner lives of thousands. I have personally come across cases of Amma's saving grace, protecting touch in many people's lives, including mine. while i understand that your concerns are probably more with the 'organization' than with Amma herself, nevertheless i cannot digest your statement 'surely she gets a proceed of the donations'- how do you know? how can you be so sure? this is because you are judging her with the same standards that you judge anyone else who is still in the grip of their ego and maya. I dont blame you for that , this is human nature. We cannot beleive that there can be anyone really selfless, really giving unconditional love. Also, we have seen many false masters in the past. There may be many false masters, but i assure you there are even a greater number of false disciples!! let us purify our hearts first, let us sincerely attempt to realize God and to put down our ego- the True master will automatically come to us. We dont have to search for him. We crucify the Greatest masters, vilify them with slander and abuse , and then complain that we get false masters. The buddha was poisoned, Krishna was slandered, Christ was crucified, Sri Ramakrishna was called 'mad'. Swami Vivekananda was called a 'heathen' .... The problem is we always see faults in everyone.. So much so that our eyes cannot recognise goodness. So even if the Greatest Beings walk in front of us, we probably will doubt and suspect them. i dont know what started the process.. did false masters cause us to lose faith in all masters, or was it our lack of faith that drives away the Genuine ones and leaves us only with the false teachers? Peter- please me from this net. I dont see posts that discuss experiences with Amma , or that come from seekers. All i see is constant debate if Amma is genuine or not - and i thought this was a list for Amma devotees to talk about Her and our spiritual growth. I dont see how 9/11, the funding of saudis, or grocery clerks or comparisions with the TM movement have anything to do with our spiritual growth as disciples. bala Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 Dear Shankar, It is obvious you love amma very much and I so am glad you do. My intention was not to ask is amma 'misusing' the money. Deep down even I FEEL she isn't. I have met her many, many times, so I too know. My question is in the nature of how much do you all KNOW of the organization you are funding? As you can see not one of you has answered that. Besides, Shankar you seem to be an Indian. It is okay in your culture to give up control to a superior being, that is not the case in the US. 9/11 happened on North American soil. In bad economic times, when so much American money is being funneled out of the US to a foreign agency and very few on this list even want to know how it is spent, it is of a VERY genuine concern for security agencies monitoring such groups in the US. The other concern of course is the demand to silence such questions with 'need to moderate" or else, " me". I didn't know yesterday was Ammachi's birthstar birthday. No one stopped you from wishing her that. Anyway happy birthday Ammachi. The discussion is getting very emotional. So I am going to say adieu at this point. You are welcome to go one discussing this or change the topic. Ammachi, balakrishnan Shankar <balakrishnan_sh> wrote: > Namah Shivaya > > > Yesterday was Amma's birthstar. In india we celebrate the birthstar day as the birthday, so we had a puja here at M.A center. It saddened me to see any number of useless posts on the finances of Amma's ashram etc and not even one wishing her a happy birthday. > > Dear 'markasme'- when you say "Surely Amma must be getting a portion of all the donations'- i am tempted to say 'Surely you have no idea of Amma's selflessness'.. you probably have never met Amma before.. i dont know, but when you say something like that with a 'surely' please make sure that your allegation is founded in fact. > > Amma wears her body out giving darshan. She suffers a lot of physical pain by just giving darshan. You compared her to a grocery clerk who stands for 8 hours. No grocery clerk i know of, will wear his/her body away voluntarily. No grocery clerk i know of goes without sleep for up to a month or sleeps for 2 hours, hardly eats and does all this for 30 years . Grocery clerks, and others work hard because they HAVE TO- Amma works herself out in pure sacrifice. If she were after money or if she were attached to money, as you seem to suggest, she would have retired long ago and would be living luxuriously in some resort somewhere- but she continues to live in the same room built for her 20 years ago, continues to wear her body out night and day, continues to give solace to millions and continues to meet one and all unmindful of the physical strain. > > I know of nobody else who could have hugged a leper and licked his wounds and cured him. I know of no one who can cure dieseases with a touch, can grant visions, can coordinate the inner lives of thousands. I have personally come across cases of Amma's saving grace, protecting touch in many people's lives, including mine. > > while i understand that your concerns are probably more with the 'organization' than with Amma herself, nevertheless i cannot digest your statement 'surely she gets a proceed of the donations'- how do you know? how can you be so sure? this is because you are judging her with the same standards that you judge anyone else who is still in the grip of their ego and maya. I dont blame you for that , this is human nature. We cannot beleive that there can be anyone really selfless, really giving unconditional love. Also, we have seen many false masters in the past. > > There may be many false masters, but i assure you there are even a greater number of false disciples!! let us purify our hearts first, let us sincerely attempt to realize God and to put down our ego- the True master will automatically come to us. We dont have to search for him. > > We crucify the Greatest masters, vilify them with slander and abuse , and then complain that we get false masters. The buddha was poisoned, Krishna was slandered, Christ was crucified, Sri Ramakrishna was called 'mad'. Swami Vivekananda was called a 'heathen' .... > > The problem is we always see faults in everyone.. So much so that our eyes cannot recognise goodness. So even if the Greatest Beings walk in front of us, we probably will doubt and suspect them. > > i dont know what started the process.. did false masters cause us to lose faith in all masters, or was it our lack of faith that drives away the Genuine ones and leaves us only with the false teachers? > > Peter- please me from this net. I dont see posts that discuss experiences with Amma , or that come from seekers. All i see is constant debate if Amma is genuine or not - and i thought this was a list for Amma devotees to talk about Her and our spiritual growth. I dont see how 9/11, the funding of saudis, or grocery clerks or comparisions with the TM movement have anything to do with our spiritual growth as disciples. > > bala > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 Just because Mark has asked these questions, we don't need to get emotional and threaten to moderate his posts/or request the moderator to oneself. To me, his posts seem reasonable. Mark, I don't need to look at the accounting books to figure out if the money is being spent well, look at what happened at Enron and how our government turned a blind eye. Please don't bring politics here, the issues there are very complicated and not as straightforward as black and white. It's not the purpose of the list anyway. Existence has given me intelligence and so when I am around Amma, when I look at her and the devotees I can figure out the money is being spent well. Everyone should use their judgment and discern for themselves. If you don't feel Amma is it for you or the money is being spent properly there is no obligation for you to stick with Amma. No organization is perfect, because people running it are not perfect, however they are striving to be perfect, so that's the key. I hope you get my point. Mahatmas like Amma who are ever established in the truth don't care for money, but since they are the very embodiment of the truth Goddess Lakshmi is with them. Just because they are surrounded by money doesn't mean they are attached. People's obsessions with money is because of the conditioning of the priests of the religions like Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism who ask us to renounce money/material wealth rather than renouncing attachment to material pleasures. Anyway this is another topic of discussion. Please read any good spiritual books like Amma's Awaken Children - these issues are discussed in there. Ravi Chivukula - "markasme" <markasme <Ammachi> Wednesday, September 17, 2003 9:39 AM Re: My Golden Mother, finances and all of us. > Dear Shankar, > > It is obvious you love amma very much and I so am glad you do. My > intention was not to ask is amma 'misusing' the money. Deep down > even I FEEL she isn't. I have met her many, many times, so I too > know. My question is in the nature of how much do you all KNOW of > the organization you are funding? As you can see not one of you has > answered that. > > Besides, Shankar you seem to be an Indian. It is okay in your > culture to give up control to a superior being, that is not the case > in the US. 9/11 happened on North American soil. In bad economic > times, when so much American money is being funneled out of the US > to a foreign agency and very few on this list even want to know how > it is spent, it is of a VERY genuine concern for security agencies > monitoring such groups in the US. The other concern of course is > the demand to silence such questions with 'need to moderate" or > else, " me". > > I didn't know yesterday was Ammachi's birthstar birthday. No one > stopped you from wishing her that. Anyway happy birthday Ammachi. > > The discussion is getting very emotional. So I am going to say adieu > at this point. You are welcome to go one discussing this or change > the topic. > > > > Ammachi, balakrishnan Shankar > <balakrishnan_sh> wrote: > > Namah Shivaya > > > > > > Yesterday was Amma's birthstar. In india we celebrate the > birthstar day as the birthday, so we had a puja here at M.A center. > It saddened me to see any number of useless posts on the finances of > Amma's ashram etc and not even one wishing her a happy birthday. > > > > Dear 'markasme'- when you say "Surely Amma must be getting a > portion of all the donations'- i am tempted to say 'Surely you have > no idea of Amma's selflessness'.. you probably have never met Amma > before.. i dont know, but when you say something like that with > a 'surely' please make sure that your allegation is founded in fact. > > > > Amma wears her body out giving darshan. She suffers a lot of > physical pain by just giving darshan. You compared her to a grocery > clerk who stands for 8 hours. No grocery clerk i know of, will wear > his/her body away voluntarily. No grocery clerk i know of goes > without sleep for up to a month or sleeps for 2 hours, hardly eats > and does all this for 30 years . Grocery clerks, and others work > hard because they HAVE TO- Amma works herself out in pure > sacrifice. If she were after money or if she were attached to > money, as you seem to suggest, she would have retired long ago and > would be living luxuriously in some resort somewhere- but she > continues to live in the same room built for her 20 years ago, > continues to wear her body out night and day, continues to give > solace to millions and continues to meet one and all unmindful of > the physical strain. > > > > I know of nobody else who could have hugged a leper and licked > his wounds and cured him. I know of no one who can cure dieseases > with a touch, can grant visions, can coordinate the inner lives of > thousands. I have personally come across cases of Amma's saving > grace, protecting touch in many people's lives, including mine. > > > > while i understand that your concerns are probably more with > the 'organization' than with Amma herself, nevertheless i cannot > digest your statement 'surely she gets a proceed of the donations'- > how do you know? how can you be so sure? this is because you are > judging her with the same standards that you judge anyone else who > is still in the grip of their ego and maya. I dont blame you for > that , this is human nature. We cannot beleive that there can be > anyone really selfless, really giving unconditional love. Also, we > have seen many false masters in the past. > > > > There may be many false masters, but i assure you there are even > a greater number of false disciples!! let us purify our hearts > first, let us sincerely attempt to realize God and to put down our > ego- the True master will automatically come to us. We dont have to > search for him. > > > > We crucify the Greatest masters, vilify them with slander and > abuse , and then complain that we get false masters. The buddha was > poisoned, Krishna was slandered, Christ was crucified, Sri > Ramakrishna was called 'mad'. Swami Vivekananda was called > a 'heathen' .... > > > > The problem is we always see faults in everyone.. So much so that > our eyes cannot recognise goodness. So even if the Greatest Beings > walk in front of us, we probably will doubt and suspect them. > > > > i dont know what started the process.. did false masters cause us > to lose faith in all masters, or was it our lack of faith that > drives away the Genuine ones and leaves us only with the false > teachers? > > > > Peter- please me from this net. I dont see posts that > discuss experiences with Amma , or that come from seekers. All i see > is constant debate if Amma is genuine or not - and i thought this > was a list for Amma devotees to talk about Her and our spiritual > growth. I dont see how 9/11, the funding of saudis, or grocery > clerks or comparisions with the TM movement have anything to do with > our spiritual growth as disciples. > > > > bala > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha! > > Ammachi > > > Your use of is subject to > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 Namah Shivaya OK OK ... Sorry if that sounded like an emotional outburst :-) but Mark.. i didnt object to your questions regd the organization.. i only objected to your statement 'Surely Amma must be getting proceeds etc...".. in any case, i am going to drop the discussion here .. and i didnt want to because i dont want you to discus your concerns, but i think beyond a point the discussion is not very relevant to the main purpose of the list .. i may be wrong . I apologise if i have offended anyone.. in Amma's love bala Ravi Chivukula <ravichivukula wrote: Just because Mark has asked these questions, we don't need to get emotional and threaten to moderate his posts/or request the moderator to oneself. To me, his posts seem reasonable. Mark, I don't need to look at the accounting books to figure out if the money is being spent well, look at what happened at Enron and how our government turned a blind eye. Please don't bring politics here, the issues there are very complicated and not as straightforward as black and white. It's not the purpose of the list anyway. Existence has given me intelligence and so when I am around Amma, when I look at her and the devotees I can figure out the money is being spent well. Everyone should use their judgment and discern for themselves. If you don't feel Amma is it for you or the money is being spent properly there is no obligation for you to stick with Amma. No organization is perfect, because people running it are not perfect, however they are striving to be perfect, so that's the key. I hope you get my point. Mahatmas like Amma who are ever established in the truth don't care for money, but since they are the very embodiment of the truth Goddess Lakshmi is with them. Just because they are surrounded by money doesn't mean they are attached. People's obsessions with money is because of the conditioning of the priests of the religions like Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism who ask us to renounce money/material wealth rather than renouncing attachment to material pleasures. Anyway this is another topic of discussion. Please read any good spiritual books like Amma's Awaken Children - these issues are discussed in there. Ravi Chivukula - "markasme" <markasme <Ammachi> Wednesday, September 17, 2003 9:39 AM Re: My Golden Mother, finances and all of us. > Dear Shankar, > > It is obvious you love amma very much and I so am glad you do. My > intention was not to ask is amma 'misusing' the money. Deep down > even I FEEL she isn't. I have met her many, many times, so I too > know. My question is in the nature of how much do you all KNOW of > the organization you are funding? As you can see not one of you has > answered that. > > Besides, Shankar you seem to be an Indian. It is okay in your > culture to give up control to a superior being, that is not the case > in the US. 9/11 happened on North American soil. In bad economic > times, when so much American money is being funneled out of the US > to a foreign agency and very few on this list even want to know how > it is spent, it is of a VERY genuine concern for security agencies > monitoring such groups in the US. The other concern of course is > the demand to silence such questions with 'need to moderate" or > else, " me". > > I didn't know yesterday was Ammachi's birthstar birthday. No one > stopped you from wishing her that. Anyway happy birthday Ammachi. > > The discussion is getting very emotional. So I am going to say adieu > at this point. You are welcome to go one discussing this or change > the topic. > > > > Ammachi, balakrishnan Shankar > <balakrishnan_sh> wrote: > > Namah Shivaya > > > > > > Yesterday was Amma's birthstar. In india we celebrate the > birthstar day as the birthday, so we had a puja here at M.A center. > It saddened me to see any number of useless posts on the finances of > Amma's ashram etc and not even one wishing her a happy birthday. > > > > Dear 'markasme'- when you say "Surely Amma must be getting a > portion of all the donations'- i am tempted to say 'Surely you have > no idea of Amma's selflessness'.. you probably have never met Amma > before.. i dont know, but when you say something like that with > a 'surely' please make sure that your allegation is founded in fact. > > > > Amma wears her body out giving darshan. She suffers a lot of > physical pain by just giving darshan. You compared her to a grocery > clerk who stands for 8 hours. No grocery clerk i know of, will wear > his/her body away voluntarily. No grocery clerk i know of goes > without sleep for up to a month or sleeps for 2 hours, hardly eats > and does all this for 30 years . Grocery clerks, and others work > hard because they HAVE TO- Amma works herself out in pure > sacrifice. If she were after money or if she were attached to > money, as you seem to suggest, she would have retired long ago and > would be living luxuriously in some resort somewhere- but she > continues to live in the same room built for her 20 years ago, > continues to wear her body out night and day, continues to give > solace to millions and continues to meet one and all unmindful of > the physical strain. > > > > I know of nobody else who could have hugged a leper and licked > his wounds and cured him. I know of no one who can cure dieseases > with a touch, can grant visions, can coordinate the inner lives of > thousands. I have personally come across cases of Amma's saving > grace, protecting touch in many people's lives, including mine. > > > > while i understand that your concerns are probably more with > the 'organization' than with Amma herself, nevertheless i cannot > digest your statement 'surely she gets a proceed of the donations'- > how do you know? how can you be so sure? this is because you are > judging her with the same standards that you judge anyone else who > is still in the grip of their ego and maya. I dont blame you for > that , this is human nature. We cannot beleive that there can be > anyone really selfless, really giving unconditional love. Also, we > have seen many false masters in the past. > > > > There may be many false masters, but i assure you there are even > a greater number of false disciples!! let us purify our hearts > first, let us sincerely attempt to realize God and to put down our > ego- the True master will automatically come to us. We dont have to > search for him. > > > > We crucify the Greatest masters, vilify them with slander and > abuse , and then complain that we get false masters. The buddha was > poisoned, Krishna was slandered, Christ was crucified, Sri > Ramakrishna was called 'mad'. Swami Vivekananda was called > a 'heathen' .... > > > > The problem is we always see faults in everyone.. So much so that > our eyes cannot recognise goodness. So even if the Greatest Beings > walk in front of us, we probably will doubt and suspect them. > > > > i dont know what started the process.. did false masters cause us > to lose faith in all masters, or was it our lack of faith that > drives away the Genuine ones and leaves us only with the false > teachers? > > > > Peter- please me from this net. I dont see posts that > discuss experiences with Amma , or that come from seekers. All i see > is constant debate if Amma is genuine or not - and i thought this > was a list for Amma devotees to talk about Her and our spiritual > growth. I dont see how 9/11, the funding of saudis, or grocery > clerks or comparisions with the TM movement have anything to do with > our spiritual growth as disciples. > > > > bala > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha! > > Ammachi > > > Your use of is subject to > > > Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha! Ammachi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 - markasme Ammachi Wednesday, September 17, 2003 12:39 PM Re: My Golden Mother, finances and all of us. Dear Bala, Please don't drop the list; your posts have been wonderful and you would surely be missed. I am relatively new to the list and I, too, would like to see us discuss our spiritual growth more frequently than we do and be much more supportive of each other. While I have found great support here personally, I feel somewhat unsettled when we seem to be jumping at each other and arguing issues that have nothing to with our growth (I was BRAND new when the discussion about dealing with flower petals hit and kept hoping that more serious issues were the norm!). I enjoy hearing from each of you and think we should have room for all discussions that genuinely reflect an effort to grow spiritually and become the realized people we claim we are striving to become. There are too many good hearts here for us to lose each other. Love to you all, Snehalata Dear Shankar, It is obvious you love amma very much and I so am glad you do. My intention was not to ask is amma 'misusing' the money. Deep down even I FEEL she isn't. I have met her many, many times, so I too know. My question is in the nature of how much do you all KNOW of the organization you are funding? As you can see not one of you has answered that. Besides, Shankar you seem to be an Indian. It is okay in your culture to give up control to a superior being, that is not the case in the US. 9/11 happened on North American soil. In bad economic times, when so much American money is being funneled out of the US to a foreign agency and very few on this list even want to know how it is spent, it is of a VERY genuine concern for security agencies monitoring such groups in the US. The other concern of course is the demand to silence such questions with 'need to moderate" or else, " me". I didn't know yesterday was Ammachi's birthstar birthday. No one stopped you from wishing her that. Anyway happy birthday Ammachi. The discussion is getting very emotional. So I am going to say adieu at this point. You are welcome to go one discussing this or change the topic. Ammachi, balakrishnan Shankar <balakrishnan_sh> wrote: > Namah Shivaya > > > Yesterday was Amma's birthstar. In india we celebrate the birthstar day as the birthday, so we had a puja here at M.A center. It saddened me to see any number of useless posts on the finances of Amma's ashram etc and not even one wishing her a happy birthday. > > Dear 'markasme'- when you say "Surely Amma must be getting a portion of all the donations'- i am tempted to say 'Surely you have no idea of Amma's selflessness'.. you probably have never met Amma before.. i dont know, but when you say something like that with a 'surely' please make sure that your allegation is founded in fact. > > Amma wears her body out giving darshan. She suffers a lot of physical pain by just giving darshan. You compared her to a grocery clerk who stands for 8 hours. No grocery clerk i know of, will wear his/her body away voluntarily. No grocery clerk i know of goes without sleep for up to a month or sleeps for 2 hours, hardly eats and does all this for 30 years . Grocery clerks, and others work hard because they HAVE TO- Amma works herself out in pure sacrifice. If she were after money or if she were attached to money, as you seem to suggest, she would have retired long ago and would be living luxuriously in some resort somewhere- but she continues to live in the same room built for her 20 years ago, continues to wear her body out night and day, continues to give solace to millions and continues to meet one and all unmindful of the physical strain. > > I know of nobody else who could have hugged a leper and licked his wounds and cured him. I know of no one who can cure dieseases with a touch, can grant visions, can coordinate the inner lives of thousands. I have personally come across cases of Amma's saving grace, protecting touch in many people's lives, including mine. > > while i understand that your concerns are probably more with the 'organization' than with Amma herself, nevertheless i cannot digest your statement 'surely she gets a proceed of the donations'- how do you know? how can you be so sure? this is because you are judging her with the same standards that you judge anyone else who is still in the grip of their ego and maya. I dont blame you for that , this is human nature. We cannot beleive that there can be anyone really selfless, really giving unconditional love. Also, we have seen many false masters in the past. > > There may be many false masters, but i assure you there are even a greater number of false disciples!! let us purify our hearts first, let us sincerely attempt to realize God and to put down our ego- the True master will automatically come to us. We dont have to search for him. > > We crucify the Greatest masters, vilify them with slander and abuse , and then complain that we get false masters. The buddha was poisoned, Krishna was slandered, Christ was crucified, Sri Ramakrishna was called 'mad'. Swami Vivekananda was called a 'heathen' .... > > The problem is we always see faults in everyone.. So much so that our eyes cannot recognise goodness. So even if the Greatest Beings walk in front of us, we probably will doubt and suspect them. > > i dont know what started the process.. did false masters cause us to lose faith in all masters, or was it our lack of faith that drives away the Genuine ones and leaves us only with the false teachers? > > Peter- please me from this net. I dont see posts that discuss experiences with Amma , or that come from seekers. All i see is constant debate if Amma is genuine or not - and i thought this was a list for Amma devotees to talk about Her and our spiritual growth. I dont see how 9/11, the funding of saudis, or grocery clerks or comparisions with the TM movement have anything to do with our spiritual growth as disciples. > > bala > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sponsor Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha! Ammachi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 no no I am sorry .. i wont drop out .. i was just behaving badly :-) and venting and ranting... partly because i am sad that i dont get to go to AV50... once again .. sorry Mark if i sounded harsh- didnt mean to- but i simply feel that Amma's greatness is beyond question .. and i didnt like the assumption that she may be getting 'money' for herself out of the donations. I remember Amma's comments on the money that comes to the ashram.. while i was doing lap seva once, a brahmacharini who had made a mistake in accounting for some money was talking to Amma- Amma was telling Her :" Daughter, many devotees have given this money with the faith that we will use it carefully for the poor .. They have sacrificed so much for this- that is why we have to be very careful in dealing with the money ". what struck me was that Amma was not angry with the brahmacharini but very loving and patient .. i also immiediately thought that if I had lost some of my company's money, my boss would not be so loving!- or for that matter if I were the boss and someone working for me lost some of the compay's money, I too would not be patient at all.. i was struck at Amma's loveing gentle correction and also struck by her firmness and sincerity when she talked of the money that the devotees sacrificed. Also a couple of years ago , a friend of mine who is a resident of Amma's ashram told me that Amma was one day talking about how some of her organizations were actually running at a loss. She said that she even allowed the auctioning of items that she used only because of this. bala. Dixie Thacker <dixielou wrote: - markasme Ammachi Wednesday, September 17, 2003 12:39 PM Re: My Golden Mother, finances and all of us. Dear Bala, Please don't drop the list; your posts have been wonderful and you would surely be missed. I am relatively new to the list and I, too, would like to see us discuss our spiritual growth more frequently than we do and be much more supportive of each other. While I have found great support here personally, I feel somewhat unsettled when we seem to be jumping at each other and arguing issues that have nothing to with our growth (I was BRAND new when the discussion about dealing with flower petals hit and kept hoping that more serious issues were the norm!). I enjoy hearing from each of you and think we should have room for all discussions that genuinely reflect an effort to grow spiritually and become the realized people we claim we are striving to become. There are too many good hearts here for us to lose each other. Love to you all, Snehalata Dear Shankar, It is obvious you love amma very much and I so am glad you do. My intention was not to ask is amma 'misusing' the money. Deep down even I FEEL she isn't. I have met her many, many times, so I too know. My question is in the nature of how much do you all KNOW of the organization you are funding? As you can see not one of you has answered that. Besides, Shankar you seem to be an Indian. It is okay in your culture to give up control to a superior being, that is not the case in the US. 9/11 happened on North American soil. In bad economic times, when so much American money is being funneled out of the US to a foreign agency and very few on this list even want to know how it is spent, it is of a VERY genuine concern for security agencies monitoring such groups in the US. The other concern of course is the demand to silence such questions with 'need to moderate" or else, " me". I didn't know yesterday was Ammachi's birthstar birthday. No one stopped you from wishing her that. Anyway happy birthday Ammachi. The discussion is getting very emotional. So I am going to say adieu at this point. You are welcome to go one discussing this or change the topic. Ammachi, balakrishnan Shankar <balakrishnan_sh> wrote: > Namah Shivaya > > > Yesterday was Amma's birthstar. In india we celebrate the birthstar day as the birthday, so we had a puja here at M.A center. It saddened me to see any number of useless posts on the finances of Amma's ashram etc and not even one wishing her a happy birthday. > > Dear 'markasme'- when you say "Surely Amma must be getting a portion of all the donations'- i am tempted to say 'Surely you have no idea of Amma's selflessness'.. you probably have never met Amma before.. i dont know, but when you say something like that with a 'surely' please make sure that your allegation is founded in fact. > > Amma wears her body out giving darshan. She suffers a lot of physical pain by just giving darshan. You compared her to a grocery clerk who stands for 8 hours. No grocery clerk i know of, will wear his/her body away voluntarily. No grocery clerk i know of goes without sleep for up to a month or sleeps for 2 hours, hardly eats and does all this for 30 years . Grocery clerks, and others work hard because they HAVE TO- Amma works herself out in pure sacrifice. If she were after money or if she were attached to money, as you seem to suggest, she would have retired long ago and would be living luxuriously in some resort somewhere- but she continues to live in the same room built for her 20 years ago, continues to wear her body out night and day, continues to give solace to millions and continues to meet one and all unmindful of the physical strain. > > I know of nobody else who could have hugged a leper and licked his wounds and cured him. I know of no one who can cure dieseases with a touch, can grant visions, can coordinate the inner lives of thousands. I have personally come across cases of Amma's saving grace, protecting touch in many people's lives, including mine. > > while i understand that your concerns are probably more with the 'organization' than with Amma herself, nevertheless i cannot digest your statement 'surely she gets a proceed of the donations'- how do you know? how can you be so sure? this is because you are judging her with the same standards that you judge anyone else who is still in the grip of their ego and maya. I dont blame you for that , this is human nature. We cannot beleive that there can be anyone really selfless, really giving unconditional love. Also, we have seen many false masters in the past. > > There may be many false masters, but i assure you there are even a greater number of false disciples!! let us purify our hearts first, let us sincerely attempt to realize God and to put down our ego- the True master will automatically come to us. We dont have to search for him. > > We crucify the Greatest masters, vilify them with slander and abuse , and then complain that we get false masters. The buddha was poisoned, Krishna was slandered, Christ was crucified, Sri Ramakrishna was called 'mad'. Swami Vivekananda was called a 'heathen' .... > > The problem is we always see faults in everyone.. So much so that our eyes cannot recognise goodness. So even if the Greatest Beings walk in front of us, we probably will doubt and suspect them. > > i dont know what started the process.. did false masters cause us to lose faith in all masters, or was it our lack of faith that drives away the Genuine ones and leaves us only with the false teachers? > > Peter- please me from this net. I dont see posts that discuss experiences with Amma , or that come from seekers. All i see is constant debate if Amma is genuine or not - and i thought this was a list for Amma devotees to talk about Her and our spiritual growth. I dont see how 9/11, the funding of saudis, or grocery clerks or comparisions with the TM movement have anything to do with our spiritual growth as disciples. > > bala > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sponsor Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha! Ammachi Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha! Ammachi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 Bala, Please don't !!! I have loved and really appreciated many of the things you've shared, and for what it's worth, feel so uplifted by this list, even when topics like this come up. For me, this topic inspired me to look deeper into my faith in Guruji, and now I know more than ever what a gift She is to us all. Even this topic is part of Her leela, so let's keep our minds and hearts open, and keep up the search for Truth, wherever She may lead us. Love and light, Bala Brianna --- balakrishnan Shankar <balakrishnan_sh wrote: > Namah Shivaya > > OK OK ... Sorry if that sounded like an emotional > outburst :-) > > but Mark.. i didnt object to your questions regd > the organization.. i only objected to your statement > 'Surely Amma must be getting proceeds etc...".. > > in any case, i am going to drop the discussion here > .. > > and i didnt want to because i dont want > you to discus your concerns, but i think beyond a > point the discussion is not very relevant to the > main purpose of the list .. i may be wrong . > I apologise if i have offended anyone.. > > in Amma's love > > bala > > > > Ravi Chivukula <ravichivukula wrote: > Just because Mark has asked these questions, we > don't need to get emotional > and threaten to moderate his posts/or request the > moderator to > oneself. To me, his posts seem reasonable. > > Mark, I don't need to look at the accounting books > to figure out if the > money is being spent well, look at what happened at > Enron and how our > government turned a blind eye. Please don't bring > politics here, the issues > there are very complicated and not as > straightforward as black and white. > It's not the purpose of the list anyway. Existence > has given me intelligence > and so when I am around Amma, when I look at her and > the devotees I can > figure out the money is being spent well. Everyone > should use their judgment > and discern for themselves. If you don't feel Amma > is it for you or the > money is being spent properly there is no obligation > for you to stick with > Amma. No organization is perfect, because people > running it are not perfect, > however they are striving to be perfect, so that's > the key. I hope you get > my point. > > Mahatmas like Amma who are ever established in the > truth don't care for > money, but since they are the very embodiment of the > truth Goddess Lakshmi > is with them. Just because they are surrounded by > money doesn't mean they > are attached. People's obsessions with money is > because of the conditioning > of the priests of the religions like Christianity, > Hinduism, Buddhism who > ask us to renounce money/material wealth rather than > renouncing attachment > to material pleasures. Anyway this is another topic > of discussion. Please > read any good spiritual books like Amma's Awaken > Children - these issues are > discussed in there. > > Ravi Chivukula > > > - > "markasme" <markasme > <Ammachi> > Wednesday, September 17, 2003 9:39 AM > Re: My Golden Mother, finances > and all of us. > > > > Dear Shankar, > > > > It is obvious you love amma very much and I so am > glad you do. My > > intention was not to ask is amma 'misusing' the > money. Deep down > > even I FEEL she isn't. I have met her many, many > times, so I too > > know. My question is in the nature of how much do > you all KNOW of > > the organization you are funding? As you can see > not one of you has > > answered that. > > > > Besides, Shankar you seem to be an Indian. It is > okay in your > > culture to give up control to a superior being, > that is not the case > > in the US. 9/11 happened on North American soil. > In bad economic > > times, when so much American money is being > funneled out of the US > > to a foreign agency and very few on this list even > want to know how > > it is spent, it is of a VERY genuine concern for > security agencies > > monitoring such groups in the US. The other > concern of course is > > the demand to silence such questions with 'need to > moderate" or > > else, " me". > > > > I didn't know yesterday was Ammachi's birthstar > birthday. No one > > stopped you from wishing her that. Anyway happy > birthday Ammachi. > > > > The discussion is getting very emotional. So I am > going to say adieu > > at this point. You are welcome to go one > discussing this or change > > the topic. > > > > > > > > Ammachi, balakrishnan > Shankar > > <balakrishnan_sh> wrote: > > > Namah Shivaya > > > > > > > > > Yesterday was Amma's birthstar. In india we > celebrate the > > birthstar day as the birthday, so we had a puja > here at M.A center. > > It saddened me to see any number of useless posts > on the finances of > > Amma's ashram etc and not even one wishing her a > happy birthday. > > > > > > Dear 'markasme'- when you say "Surely Amma must > be getting a > > portion of all the donations'- i am tempted to say > 'Surely you have > > no idea of Amma's selflessness'.. you probably > have never met Amma > > before.. i dont know, but when you say something > like that with > > a 'surely' please make sure that your allegation > is founded in fact. > > > > > > Amma wears her body out giving darshan. She > suffers a lot of > > physical pain by just giving darshan. You compared > her to a grocery > > clerk who stands for 8 hours. No grocery clerk i > know of, will wear > > his/her body away voluntarily. No grocery clerk i > know of goes > > without sleep for up to a month or sleeps for 2 > hours, hardly eats > > and does all this for 30 years . Grocery clerks, > and others work > > hard because they HAVE TO- Amma works herself out > in pure > > sacrifice. If she were after money or if she > were attached to > > money, as you seem to suggest, she would have > retired long ago and > > would be living luxuriously in some resort > somewhere- but she > > continues to live in the same room built for her > 20 years ago, > > continues to wear her body out night and day, > continues to give > > solace to millions and continues to meet one and > all unmindful of > > the physical strain. > > > > > > I know of nobody else who could have hugged a > leper and licked > > his wounds and cured him. I know of no one who can > cure dieseases > > with a touch, can grant visions, can coordinate > the inner lives of > > thousands. I have personally come across cases of > Amma's saving > > grace, protecting touch in many people's lives, > including mine. > > > > > > while i understand that your concerns are > probably more with > > the 'organization' than with Amma herself, > nevertheless i cannot > > digest your statement 'surely she gets a proceed > of the donations'- > > how do you know? how can you be so sure? this is > because === message truncated === Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2003 Report Share Posted September 18, 2003 I find Amma's love so apparent as to be surprised that there are people who see her who do not think so. But I think tolerance for those whose questions are sincere is important and serves Amma too. I mentioned the case from another forum of a westerner who attended Devi Bhava based on glowing testimonials who wrote back to the forum and said they were first enjoying the loving energy but then said they became so surprised upset by what they saw as aggressive crowd control methods that they left and wanted nothing more to do with Amma's organization. Obviously a person used to these settings would not think so, so they would never think to consider that some people might react in such a way. I also agree with the point about the importance of responsibility and the importance of asking and answering questions. While this may not be meaningful to some, others find it important. We all love Amma and so tolerance for differing perspectives should be encouraged. Which brings me to another current example of how people see things differently and why what some feel no need to question others may, the highly radioactive black beach sands in Kerala, an issue of no apparent concern to Amma's Indian devotees, but one being discussed currently on other sites, and one of concern to some of Amma's more scientifically aware western devotees, especially pregant women and those with young children who would be more at risk than adults. No one seems to know if Amma has been asked about this, and everyone assumes Amma is protecting everyone there from such things, yet it appears Amma herself does not consider her spiritual energy to be miraculously protective to others under all circumstances, since in the book Amma, it says: "...Amma knew her spiritual energy would not allow her to get leprosy from Dattan...[but Amma warned]...devotees not to sleep on the same mat that Dattan was using, as there was a very real danger of contracting leprosy. She was deeply concerned that anyuone looking at her touching him might think there was no risk of contagion..." >From a western POV, there are known risks from the radioactive sands. This site [http://www.vanderbilt.edu/radsafe/0211/msg00167.ht] has an interview that describes the evidence of signficant genetic changes seen in those who live on the beach area where the radioactive sands are found, the most important part is copied below: ==================================================== MCDONALD: First of all, can you tell me about this area in Kerala? What's... what's it like? FORSTER: Well, I actually don't know much from it, but my wife does because she was born there, and this is how we started off with the idea to do this study. So it's a tropical part of India, and the people who live there are all indigenous. And in coastal Kerala you have a river which washes down radioactive minerals from the mountains and these get accumulated on the beaches. And on these beaches you have a population of fishing folk, several thousand families who have lived there since the beginning of time. And immediately next to this radioactive strip of coastline you have adjacent non-radioactive coastline which is completely normal, as in other parts of the world. MCDONALD: Now, what is the source of the radiation? FORSTER: The radiation is caused by a mineral called monazite which contains about ten percent of thorium phosphate. It's so highly concentrated that it's even exploited commercially there. MCDONALD: Wow. Now, when we're talking about radiation levels, are we talking about normal or... or higher? What... what are we talking about? Can you give me a context there of what kind of levels we're speaking about? FORSTER: Well, if we take normal radiation levels, we mean about one millisievert. Now, in India we have ten times that amount, about 10 millisieverts. MCDONALD: So... so what is a millisievert? How... how does that compare to other forms of radiation I might be exposed to? FORSTER: One millisevert is the dose we get in most areas of the world from natural radiation. If we compare that to artificial radiation we receive, about 0.3 milliseverts would come from, say, X- rays which we receive on average per year. MCDONALD: Well, how did you go about looking at the impact this radiation might have genetically on this population? FORSTER: Well, what we look at for different purposes... we actually do evolutionary research. We look at a part of our DNA which is handed down entirely through the maternal lineage, through the mothers. And this is called mitochondrial DNA, or MT DNA for short. And we looked at this DNA because it's very easy to trace within families. You always know yours comes from your mother, your mother's from her mother, and so on. There's no difficulty in finding out where a type comes from. So if we see a mutation happen we simply have to trace the maternal lineage to find out its effects. For example, my wife would have sampled, say, a grandmother then her daughters and then the granddaughters. And all we'd have to do in the laboratory is to determine the grandmother's sequence and one of the granddaughters', and if we see a difference between the two we can then go and take a look at the inter... intervening generation to see where that mutation happened and how it was passed down to other daughters or whether it was passed down at all. So this is a very simple genetic system which is very powerful for... for finding mutations in families. MCDONALD: So you're looking for mutations that have happened over time, in other words, that have been passed down through the generations. FORSTER: Exactly. MCDONALD: So what did you see when you looked at the mitochondrial DNA of these families that have been living in this high-radiation area? FORSTER: When we compared the radioactive area with the non- radioactive area next door... we were comparing about 750 individuals from the radioactive area and 250 from the non-radioactive control area... we saw they had significantly more mutations in the radioactive area, so 22 mutations in the radioactive area and only one mutation in the non-radioactive area. MCDONALD: So how meaningful is that? What does that mean that they have these mutations? FORSTER: Well, it is... first of all, you might be interested in the health effects. Now, because we looked at a region of our genome which does not code for a gene, so it does not create any visible effects, whether beneficial or adverse, but there's no reason to suppose that mutations here of course are restricted to such non- coding regions. We have to assume that other genes, like for example, cancer genes, will be equally affected by these mutations. Now, the other interesting finding we had was that the mutations which have occurred in these families within the last two or three generations we looked at are the same mutations at the same DNA positions as have mutated in the past 60,000 years of human evolution. And this means radioactivity is triggering or accelerating a general mutation mechanism which is also causing our DNA to evolve. MCDONALD: Are you saying that the... this higher level of natural radiation is actually accelerating human evolution? FORSTER: In a sense, yes, because the mutations which occur are at the same positions that have mutated in the past 60,000 years. We can tell which positions have mutated if we look at all humans and then reconstruct their evolutionary tree for this particular molecule. And then we see that some positions have mutated very frequently and others haven't mutated at all. And when we now look in the radioactive families we see exactly the same pattern. The ones that are known to be so-called mutational hot spots are also hot spots which mutate frequently in our radioactive families. MCDONALD: But did we know that these mutations that have been happening to us throughout our evolution were caused by natural radiation? FORSTER: That is a hot potato. I... I know that there are some geneticists who believe that most of the changes that have happened during evolution are due to defects in our repair mechanism. And another idea is that there might be chemical forces at work actively modifying DNA through chemical contaminants or ultraviolet radiation and the like. I certainly think that radioactivity has something to do with the mechanism, and it might explain a lot of what we see during evolution. MCDONALD: Were you surprised that you saw these mutations at... at such low levels? FORSTER: In fact, I was. If we look at the level of radiation in normal areas it's about one millisievert. This is what most humans across the world receive. In Kerala it's ten millisieverts. It's ten times as much. If we look at the level allowed for people working with radiation professionally, they are allowed a maximum of 50 milliseverts. And if we see effects at ten milliseverts, then I think we should be careful with a level of 50 milliseverts as a legal maximum. MCDONALD: What are you suggesting the legal maximum should be? FORSTER: Well, that'll depend on more research, but I think if even a tenfold increase does cause such observable changes, we should be considering a level which is perhaps at most that. MCDONALD: Dr. Forster, thank you very much for your time. FORSTER: My pleasure. Thanks. MCDONALD: Dr. Peter Forster is a research fellow in the Molecular Genetics Laboratory at the McDonald Institute at the University of Cambridge. ===================================================== It would be good to know if anyone has asked Amma about this and whether any precautions should be taken. Ammachi, "markasme" <markasme> wrote: > Ammachi, balakrishnan Shankar > <balakrishnan_sh> wrote: > > no no I am sorry .. i wont drop out .. i was just behaving badly :- > ) and venting and ranting... partly because i am sad that i dont > get to go to AV50... > > > > once again .. sorry Mark if i sounded harsh- didnt mean to- but > i simply feel that Amma's greatness is beyond question .. and i > > didnt like the assumption that she may be getting 'money' for > > herself out of the donations. > > > > what struck me was that Amma was not angry with the brahmacharini > > but very loving and patient .. > > bala. > > > > Dear Bala, > > I had to go for a meeting immediately after I posted this > afternoon. So I am only now reading your two posts. Your apologies > accepted. :-)))) Really there is no need to apologize. The best of > us get carried away. Atleast you realized....THAT says so much about > you. > > My only intention was to see and to get people to be more > responsible about matters such as this. May be I should have > presented it more gently. So, here is my apology to everyone. > > Bala, please, please do not and please continue to post. > Yes, I too have noticed how loving amma is. It is amazing. But of > that later. To those on the east coast weathering the hurricane, my > prayers are with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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