Guest guest Posted October 11, 2003 Report Share Posted October 11, 2003 Namah Sivaya doubt-belief-faith-trust When our dearest minnaminungu(faint-glow) had said something about faith and belief, i was reminded of a profound discourse which i had read from a book. Just felt like sharing it with u, so just keyed in these from the book. Who had said this is immaterial as long as we imbibe the nectar. Here it goes.... "I am also here to sing a song, but it can be given to u only when u r ready. And ur readiness means that doubt should simply dissapear from the mind. It should not be supressed, you should not try to defeat it, because defeated it will remain as a part of your consiousness and it will go on affecting u. Dont fight your doubting mind, dont supress it. Rather on the contrary, you simply be indifferent to your doubting mind, nothing else can be done. "Indifference is the key: you simply be indifferent.It is there - accept it. Bring your energies more and more towards trust and love- because it is the same energy which becomes doubt; it is the same enenrgy which becomes trust. Remain indifferent to doubt. The moment u are indifferent your cooperation is broken, you are not feeding it - because it is through attention that anything is fed. If you pay attention to your doubt, even if u are against it, paying attention to it is dangerous because, the very attention is the food; that is your cooperation. One has just to be indifferent, niether for nor against: dont be for doubt, dont be against doubt. "So now u will have to understand three words. One word is "doubt" anaother word is "belief", the third word of "trust" or "faith" - or known in east as "sraddha". Doubt is a negative attitude towards everything. Whatsoever is said, first u look at it negatively. You are against it, and you will find reasons, rationalising how to support your "agaianst". Then there is the mind of belief. It is just ike the mind of doubt only standing upside down; there is not much difference. This mind looks at things postively and tries to find reasons, rationalising how to support it, how to be for it.The mind who doubts supresses belief; the mind who beleives suppresses doubt - but they boht are of ther same stuff; the quality is not different. Then there is a third mind whose doubting has simply disappeared - and when doubt dissapears, belief also disappears. Faith is not belief, it is love. Faith is not beleif because it is not half, it is total.Faith is not belief becasue there is no doubt in it, so how can u beleive..? Faith is not rationalisation at all: niether for nor against, neither this nor that, Faith is a trusting, a deep trusting, a love. You dont find any rationalisations for it, it simply is so. So what to do..? Dont create belief against faith. Just be indifferent to your belief and doubt both, and bring your energies towards more and more love; love more; love unconditionally. Not only love me, because that is not possible: if u love, u simply love more. If u love, u simply exist in a more loving way - not only towards the master, but towards everything that exist around u: towards trees and the stones, and the sky and the earth. You, your being, your very quality of being, becomes a love phenomenon. Thus trust arises. And only in such a trust, can a gift like this song of mahamudra be given. When naropa was ready tilopa gave this gift. So remember, with a master you are not on a head-trip. Doubt and belief are all head-trips. With a master you are on a heart trip.And heart doesnt know what doubt is, heart doesnt know what beleif is - heart simply knows trust. Heart is like a small child.: the small child clings to the fathers hand, and whereever the father is going child is going, niether beleiving nor doubting; the child is undivided. Doubt is half, belief is half. A child is still total, whole, he simply goes with his father, wherever he is going. When a disciple becomes just like a child, then only these gifts of the highest peak of the conciousness can be given. When u become the deepest valley of reception, then the highest peaks of conciousness can be given to u. Only a valley can receive a peak. A disciple should be absolutely feminine, receptive, like a womb. Only then such a phenomenon happens as is going to happen in this song. Tilopa is the master, Naropa is the disciple, and Tilopa says "Mahamudra is beyond all words and symbols, but for you, earnest and loyal, must this be said... It is beyond words and symbols, all words and all symbols. Then how can it be said? If is is really beyond all words and symbols, then how can it be said?? IS there any way then? Yes, there is a way: If there is a Naropa, there is a way; if there is really a disciple there is a way. It depends on the disciple whether the way will be found or not. If the disciple is so receptive that he as no mind of his own- he does not judge whether it is right or wrong, he has no mind of his own, he has surrendered his mind to the master, he is simply a receptivity, an emptiness, ready to welcome whatsover is given unconditionally - then words and symbols are not needed, then something can be given. And u can listen to it between the words, you can read it between the lines - then words are just an excuse. The real thing happens just by the side of the words. A word is just a trick, a device. The real thing follows the words like shadow. ANd if u are too much of the mind, you will listen to the words, then it cannot be communicated. But if u are not a mind at all, then the subtle shadows that follows the words, very subtle, only the heart can see them, invisible shadows, invisible ripples of conciousness, "vibes"....then communion is immediately possible. Remember this, says Tilopa: "...but for u, Naropa earnest and loyal, must this be said...." That which cannot be said, must be said for a disciple. That which cannot be said, which is absolutely invisible, must be made visible for the disciple. It depends not only on the master - even more it depends on the disciple. Tilopa was fortunate to find a Naropa. There have been a few masters, so unfortunate , who never could find a disciple like Naropa, So whatsoever they have gained dissapeared with them, because there was nobody to receive it. Sometimes masters have travelled thousands of miles to find a disciple. Tilopa himself went from India to tibet to find Naropa, to find a disciple. Tilopa wandered all over India and couldnt find a man of that quality , who could receive such a gift, who could appreciate such a gift, who could be able to absorb it, to be reborn through it. And once the gift was received by Naropa, he became totally transformed.Then Tilopa is reported to have said to Naropa "Now you go and find your own Naropa" Naropa was also fortunate in that way: he was able to find a disciple whose name was Marpa. Marpa was also very fortunate; he was able to find a disciple whose name was Milarepa. But then the tradition disappeared, then no more disciples of that great caliber. Many times religion has come to the earth and dissapeared; many times it will come and dissappear. A religion cannot become a church; a religion cannot become a sect. A religion depends on personal communication, on peresonal communion. The religion of Tilopa existed only for 4 generations: from Naropa to Milarepa; then it dissapeared. Religion is just like an Oasis: The desert is vast, and sometimes in tiny parts of the desert an Oasis appears. And while it lasts, seek it; and while it is there, drink of it - and it is very very rare. Jesus says many times to his disciples,"A little while more I am here. And while I am here, you eat me, you drink me. Dont miss this opertunity" - becuase then thousands of years ... and a man like jesus may not be there. The desert is vast. The Oasis sometimes appears and disappears; because the oasis comes from the unknown, it needs an anchor on this earth. If the anchor is not there it cannot remain here. And Naropa is an anchor. The same I would like to say to u: While I am here, a little while more, dont miss this opertunity. ANd you can miss it in trivial things; u can remain occupied with nonsense, with mental garbage. You can go on thinking for and gaianst - and the Oasis will disappear soon. You can think for and against later on. right now, drink of it, because then there will be many lives for you to think for and agaisnt, there is no hurry for it. But while it lasts, drink of it. Once you are drunk with a Jesus or a Naropa, you are totally transformed. The transformation is very very easy and simple, it is a natural process. ALL THAT IS NEEDED IS TO BECOME A SOIL AND RECIEVE THE SEED; TO BECOME A WOMB AND RECEIVE THE SEED. ........and thus the disclosure continues... Om amriteswarayi Namah -manesh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2003 Report Share Posted October 14, 2003 - Manesh V Mohan Ammachi Saturday, October 11, 2003 12:22 PM doubt-belief-faith-trust Namaha Sivaya Thank you so much for this; it is simply lovely and exactly what I needed. I had just lit an "Amma's Rose" incense and had told her that I truly needed an evening with her. My soul is tired, my body is dragging, and my heart seems to be somewhere around my knees - this was a true, and badly needed, gift. Love, Dixie Namah Sivaya doubt-belief-faith-trust When our dearest minnaminungu(faint-glow) had said something about faith and belief, i was reminded of a profound discourse which i had read from a book. Just felt like sharing it with u, so just keyed in these from the book. Who had said this is immaterial as long as we imbibe the nectar. Here it goes.... "I am also here to sing a song, but it can be given to u only when u r ready. And ur readiness means that doubt should simply dissapear from the mind. It should not be supressed, you should not try to defeat it, because defeated it will remain as a part of your consiousness and it will go on affecting u. Dont fight your doubting mind, dont supress it. Rather on the contrary, you simply be indifferent to your doubting mind, nothing else can be done. "Indifference is the key: you simply be indifferent.It is there - accept it. Bring your energies more and more towards trust and love- because it is the same energy which becomes doubt; it is the same enenrgy which becomes trust. Remain indifferent to doubt. The moment u are indifferent your cooperation is broken, you are not feeding it - because it is through attention that anything is fed. If you pay attention to your doubt, even if u are against it, paying attention to it is dangerous because, the very attention is the food; that is your cooperation. One has just to be indifferent, niether for nor against: dont be for doubt, dont be against doubt. "So now u will have to understand three words. One word is "doubt" anaother word is "belief", the third word of "trust" or "faith" - or known in east as "sraddha". Doubt is a negative attitude towards everything. Whatsoever is said, first u look at it negatively. You are against it, and you will find reasons, rationalising how to support your "agaianst". Then there is the mind of belief. It is just ike the mind of doubt only standing upside down; there is not much difference. This mind looks at things postively and tries to find reasons, rationalising how to support it, how to be for it.The mind who doubts supresses belief; the mind who beleives suppresses doubt - but they boht are of ther same stuff; the quality is not different. Then there is a third mind whose doubting has simply disappeared - and when doubt dissapears, belief also disappears. Faith is not belief, it is love. Faith is not beleif because it is not half, it is total.Faith is not belief becasue there is no doubt in it, so how can u beleive..? Faith is not rationalisation at all: niether for nor against, neither this nor that, Faith is a trusting, a deep trusting, a love. You dont find any rationalisations for it, it simply is so. So what to do..? Dont create belief against faith. Just be indifferent to your belief and doubt both, and bring your energies towards more and more love; love more; love unconditionally. Not only love me, because that is not possible: if u love, u simply love more. If u love, u simply exist in a more loving way - not only towards the master, but towards everything that exist around u: towards trees and the stones, and the sky and the earth. You, your being, your very quality of being, becomes a love phenomenon. Thus trust arises. And only in such a trust, can a gift like this song of mahamudra be given. When naropa was ready tilopa gave this gift. So remember, with a master you are not on a head-trip. Doubt and belief are all head-trips. With a master you are on a heart trip.And heart doesnt know what doubt is, heart doesnt know what beleif is - heart simply knows trust. Heart is like a small child.: the small child clings to the fathers hand, and whereever the father is going child is going, niether beleiving nor doubting; the child is undivided. Doubt is half, belief is half. A child is still total, whole, he simply goes with his father, wherever he is going. When a disciple becomes just like a child, then only these gifts of the highest peak of the conciousness can be given. When u become the deepest valley of reception, then the highest peaks of conciousness can be given to u. Only a valley can receive a peak. A disciple should be absolutely feminine, receptive, like a womb. Only then such a phenomenon happens as is going to happen in this song. Tilopa is the master, Naropa is the disciple, and Tilopa says "Mahamudra is beyond all words and symbols, but for you, earnest and loyal, must this be said... It is beyond words and symbols, all words and all symbols. Then how can it be said? If is is really beyond all words and symbols, then how can it be said?? IS there any way then? Yes, there is a way: If there is a Naropa, there is a way; if there is really a disciple there is a way. It depends on the disciple whether the way will be found or not. If the disciple is so receptive that he as no mind of his own- he does not judge whether it is right or wrong, he has no mind of his own, he has surrendered his mind to the master, he is simply a receptivity, an emptiness, ready to welcome whatsover is given unconditionally - then words and symbols are not needed, then something can be given. And u can listen to it between the words, you can read it between the lines - then words are just an excuse. The real thing happens just by the side of the words. A word is just a trick, a device. The real thing follows the words like shadow. ANd if u are too much of the mind, you will listen to the words, then it cannot be communicated. But if u are not a mind at all, then the subtle shadows that follows the words, very subtle, only the heart can see them, invisible shadows, invisible ripples of conciousness, "vibes"....then communion is immediately possible. Remember this, says Tilopa: "...but for u, Naropa earnest and loyal, must this be said...." That which cannot be said, must be said for a disciple. That which cannot be said, which is absolutely invisible, must be made visible for the disciple. It depends not only on the master - even more it depends on the disciple. Tilopa was fortunate to find a Naropa. There have been a few masters, so unfortunate , who never could find a disciple like Naropa, So whatsoever they have gained dissapeared with them, because there was nobody to receive it. Sometimes masters have travelled thousands of miles to find a disciple. Tilopa himself went from India to tibet to find Naropa, to find a disciple. Tilopa wandered all over India and couldnt find a man of that quality , who could receive such a gift, who could appreciate such a gift, who could be able to absorb it, to be reborn through it. And once the gift was received by Naropa, he became totally transformed.Then Tilopa is reported to have said to Naropa "Now you go and find your own Naropa" Naropa was also fortunate in that way: he was able to find a disciple whose name was Marpa. Marpa was also very fortunate; he was able to find a disciple whose name was Milarepa. But then the tradition disappeared, then no more disciples of that great caliber. Many times religion has come to the earth and dissapeared; many times it will come and dissappear. A religion cannot become a church; a religion cannot become a sect. A religion depends on personal communication, on peresonal communion. The religion of Tilopa existed only for 4 generations: from Naropa to Milarepa; then it dissapeared. Religion is just like an Oasis: The desert is vast, and sometimes in tiny parts of the desert an Oasis appears. And while it lasts, seek it; and while it is there, drink of it - and it is very very rare. Jesus says many times to his disciples,"A little while more I am here. And while I am here, you eat me, you drink me. Dont miss this opertunity" - becuase then thousands of years ... and a man like jesus may not be there. The desert is vast. The Oasis sometimes appears and disappears; because the oasis comes from the unknown, it needs an anchor on this earth. If the anchor is not there it cannot remain here. And Naropa is an anchor. The same I would like to say to u: While I am here, a little while more, dont miss this opertunity. ANd you can miss it in trivial things; u can remain occupied with nonsense, with mental garbage. You can go on thinking for and gaianst - and the Oasis will disappear soon. You can think for and against later on. right now, drink of it, because then there will be many lives for you to think for and agaisnt, there is no hurry for it. But while it lasts, drink of it. Once you are drunk with a Jesus or a Naropa, you are totally transformed. The transformation is very very easy and simple, it is a natural process. ALL THAT IS NEEDED IS TO BECOME A SOIL AND RECIEVE THE SEED; TO BECOME A WOMB AND RECEIVE THE SEED. .......and thus the disclosure continues... Om amriteswarayi Namah -manesh Sponsor Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha! Ammachi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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