Guest guest Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 ³Humans have the wrong notion that they can attain everything through effort. Effort, in fact, is the pride in us. In our journey to God, all efforts that stem from ego will crumble and result in failure. This, in fact, is a divine message, the message of the need for surrender and grace This eventually helps us to realize the limitations of our effort, of our ego. In short, effort teaches us that through effort alone we will not attain our goals. Ultimately, grace is the determining factor. Whether it is striving for God-realization or for achieving worldly desires, grace is the factor that fulfills the goal.² ~Amma~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Jaya Mata! Ki Jai! Ammachi, Kenna <kenna@m...> wrote: > > > ³Humans have the wrong notion that they can attain everything through > effort. Effort, in fact, is the pride in us. In our journey to God, all > efforts that stem from ego will crumble and result in failure. This, in > fact, is a divine message, the message of the need for surrender and grace > This eventually helps us to realize the limitations of our effort, of our > ego. In short, effort teaches us that through effort alone we will not > attain our goals. Ultimately, grace is the determining factor. > > Whether it is striving for God-realization or for achieving worldly desires, > grace is the factor that fulfills the goal.² > > > ~Amma~ > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 - Kenna Ammachi ; Ammachi list Wednesday, November 05, 2003 10:46 AM Grace and effort Namaha Shivaya, Kenna, thank you so much for posting this. My best friend is a Daoist and much more spiritually "advanced" than I, and we had a discussion along this same thread just a couple of evenings ago. I, like many on the list recently, have hit a period of feeling somewhat disconnected, and was lamenting to my friend that I seem to be making no "progress" whatsoever towards self-realization. (which follows another thread we've had that I had already been worrying about: where are our discussions of our paths towards enlightenment? Are we really seeing what Amma is hoping to make apparent to us?) Anyway, my Daoist friend continues to pound it into my head (metaphorically speaking!) that "efforting" is, indeed an act of ego and an effort to control outcomes-that, in fact, we only achieve awareness when we stop struggling and the monkey mind simply gives up its effort to convince us that more japas, more prayers, more chants, etc will bring us closer to our goals. Only when the brain gives up the crown can the atman follow the guiding light of the guru back to its holy and rightful throne (metaphorically speaking). I can be hard headed and continued to ask my friend why I couldn't work towards my own enlightenment...i.e., step willingly and willfully across that magical threshold between Mother's Truth and our all-too-human reality....and she answered that I can't do that because the threshold must come to me. She also pointed out that working towards self-realization was virtually impossible since we can't even define it until we've achieved it! And your post, along with a previous post, follows this up with an exclamation point from Mother herself: we cannot awaken by traipsing from holy place to holy place, by settling for pacifiers instead of sustenance, or by efforting - we achieve our awareness by surrender and grace. I, for one, have apparently not laid down my willfullness or my desire to achieve grace through my own efforts. And I would really like (and need) to hear how others are doing. My mind ties itself in knots trying to unravel some of these issues. An example of my mental mess: There are days when I am completely aware that we are, in fact, merely part of the leela - and I find myself standing in front of my students wondering why on earth I am there trying to teach them sentence structure when it has nothing to do with the Truth nor, ultimately, is it of any value whatsoever. But I certainly can't say "Hey kids, guess what? You're really just Life, coming and going like so many waves on the ocean - in fact, you ARE the ocean and you just don't know it yet." Or, more realistically, "Hey kids! You only think you're a human being but you're really just Consciousness that's temporarily being confined in a skin bag that's being supported by bone scaffolding." So, please, I need some serious input from the rest of you; do these kinds of issues cross your minds? If not, and it's apparent that I'm just nuts, remember that you're supposed to see Mother in everyone -demented or otherwise! Namaste, Snehalata ³Humans have the wrong notion that they can attain everything through effort. Effort, in fact, is the pride in us. In our journey to God, all efforts that stem from ego will crumble and result in failure. This, in fact, is a divine message, the message of the need for surrender and grace This eventually helps us to realize the limitations of our effort, of our ego. In short, effort teaches us that through effort alone we will not attain our goals. Ultimately, grace is the determining factor. Whether it is striving for God-realization or for achieving worldly desires, grace is the factor that fulfills the goal.² ~Amma~ Sponsor Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha! Ammachi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Snehalata-ji, I for one believe that you have to work very hard to be worthy of being graced. In other words, if you lie on your bed all day long hoping for grace to fall on you, that aint gonna happen- God nor any spiritual master rewards laziness. If you make a resolve to do japa at a certain time, then regardless of whatever(of course use some common sense), you stick to that resolve, irrespective of whether you did not sleep well the previous night or you missed the previous meal or you are having a sore throat... a broken resolve is nothing more than an admission of weak willpower. So does that mean I have kept all my resolutions?? far from it, I have probably kept 1% of my resolutions, but every time I do keep it, it impels me to keep a harder task. I recall a comment by Yogananda that we are embodiments of the divine and as such our willpower is limitless; while we cannot build our reservoir of willpower overnight, it can be build little by little by stretching ourselves to do more than we can in the little things in life. By the yard its hard, but inch by inch, everythings' a cinch!!! But sometimes when things do not go well inspite of our best efforts (keyword- best effort!!), then the master comes forward and bestows grace. I recall Amma herself saying that when you are beaten down, you get up and try to succeed again, and again and ... again, SHE never said ok take a break now and goto the Guru and have him/her get the task accomplised. Has anyone ever experienced what it is like when you accomplish something that is normally very hard to do- it is a rush of joy, a feeling of fulfillment, a glorious revelation that we underperform most of the time. My humble and maybe ignorant 2c :-) yogaman Ammachi, "Dixie Thacker" <dixielou@s...> wrote: > > - > Kenna > Ammachi ; Ammachi list > Wednesday, November 05, 2003 10:46 AM > Grace and effort > > Namaha Shivaya, > > Kenna, thank you so much for posting this. My best friend is a Daoist and much more spiritually "advanced" than I, and we had a discussion along this same thread just a couple of evenings ago. I, like many on the list recently, have hit a period of feeling somewhat disconnected, and was lamenting to my friend that I seem to be making no "progress" whatsoever towards self-realization. (which follows another thread we've had that I had already been worrying about: where are our discussions of our paths towards enlightenment? Are we really seeing what Amma is hoping to make apparent to us?) > > Anyway, my Daoist friend continues to pound it into my head (metaphorically speaking!) that "efforting" is, indeed an act of ego and an effort to control outcomes-that, in fact, we only achieve awareness when we stop struggling and the monkey mind simply gives up its effort to convince us that more japas, more prayers, more chants, etc will bring us closer to our goals. Only when the brain gives up the crown can the atman follow the guiding light of the guru back to its holy and rightful throne (metaphorically speaking). > > I can be hard headed and continued to ask my friend why I couldn't work towards my own enlightenment...i.e., step willingly and willfully across that magical threshold between Mother's Truth and our all-too-human reality....and she answered that I can't do that because the threshold must come to me. She also pointed out that working towards self-realization was virtually impossible since we can't even define it until we've achieved it! > > And your post, along with a previous post, follows this up with an exclamation point from Mother herself: we cannot awaken by traipsing from holy place to holy place, by settling for pacifiers instead of sustenance, or by efforting - we achieve our awareness by surrender and grace. > > I, for one, have apparently not laid down my willfullness or my desire to achieve grace through my own efforts. And I would really like (and need) to hear how others are doing. My mind ties itself in knots trying to unravel some of these issues. An example of my mental mess: There are days when I am completely aware that we are, in fact, merely part of the leela - and I find myself standing in front of my students wondering why on earth I am there trying to teach them sentence structure when it has nothing to do with the Truth nor, ultimately, is it of any value whatsoever. But I certainly can't say "Hey kids, guess what? You're really just Life, coming and going like so many waves on the ocean - in fact, you ARE the ocean and you just don't know it yet." Or, more realistically, "Hey kids! You only think you're a human being but you're really just Consciousness that's temporarily being confined in a skin bag that's being supported by bone scaffolding." > > So, please, I need some serious input from the rest of you; do these kinds of issues cross your minds? If not, and it's apparent that I'm just nuts, remember that you're supposed to see Mother in everyone -demented or otherwise! > Namaste, > Snehalata > > > > > ³Humans have the wrong notion that they can attain everything through > effort. Effort, in fact, is the pride in us. In our journey to God, all > efforts that stem from ego will crumble and result in failure. This, in > fact, is a divine message, the message of the need for surrender and grace > This eventually helps us to realize the limitations of our effort, of our > ego. In short, effort teaches us that through effort alone we will not > attain our goals. Ultimately, grace is the determining factor. > > Whether it is striving for God-realization or for achieving worldly desires, > grace is the factor that fulfills the goal.² > > > ~Amma~ > > > > > > > > Sponsor > > > > > > Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha! > > Ammachi > > > Terms of Service. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Dear Snehalata, You're such an expressive writer! I always struggle with a "voice" over email (seems easier when I'm writing an essay), but I can "hear" yours! Anyway, a few things... > I, for one, have apparently not laid down my > willfullness or my desire to achieve grace through > my own efforts. I can confidently say that I am no where NEAR surrender! I have desires, wants, complaints, etc., and am such a baby on this path! About the only thing I feel I have surrendered is my attachment to enlightenment in this lifetime (since I know I'm so far away from total surrender). But I fall so far from grace so often, and each time I pick myself up and keep trudging along. > and I find myself standing in front > of my students wondering why on earth I am there > trying to teach them sentence structure when it has > nothing to do with the Truth nor, ultimately, is it > of any value whatsoever. I feel that, too. Especially since I decided to go to college at 32yrs old. I find myself thinking, "Am I wasting my time? What does it really matter?" And I guess it doesn't, but I feel driven to continue learning and growing. Anyway, I'm with you in a lot of ways. Gabriela --- Dixie Thacker <dixielou wrote: > > - > Kenna > Ammachi ; Ammachi list > Wednesday, November 05, 2003 10:46 AM > Grace and effort > > Namaha Shivaya, > > Kenna, thank you so much for posting this. My > best friend is a Daoist and much more spiritually > "advanced" than I, and we had a discussion along > this same thread just a couple of evenings ago. I, > like many on the list recently, have hit a period of > feeling somewhat disconnected, and was lamenting to > my friend that I seem to be making no "progress" > whatsoever towards self-realization. (which follows > another thread we've had that I had already been > worrying about: where are our discussions of our > paths towards enlightenment? Are we really seeing > what Amma is hoping to make apparent to us?) > > Anyway, my Daoist friend continues to pound it > into my head (metaphorically speaking!) that > "efforting" is, indeed an act of ego and an effort > to control outcomes-that, in fact, we only achieve > awareness when we stop struggling and the monkey > mind simply gives up its effort to convince us that > more japas, more prayers, more chants, etc will > bring us closer to our goals. Only when the brain > gives up the crown can the atman follow the guiding > light of the guru back to its holy and rightful > throne (metaphorically speaking). > > I can be hard headed and continued to ask my > friend why I couldn't work towards my own > enlightenment...i.e., step willingly and willfully > across that magical threshold between Mother's Truth > and our all-too-human reality....and she answered > that I can't do that because the threshold must come > to me. She also pointed out that working towards > self-realization was virtually impossible since we > can't even define it until we've achieved it! > > And your post, along with a previous post, follows > this up with an exclamation point from Mother > herself: we cannot awaken by traipsing from holy > place to holy place, by settling for pacifiers > instead of sustenance, or by efforting - we achieve > our awareness by surrender and grace. > > I, for one, have apparently not laid down my > willfullness or my desire to achieve grace through > my own efforts. And I would really like (and need) > to hear how others are doing. My mind ties itself > in knots trying to unravel some of these issues. An > example of my mental mess: There are days when I am > completely aware that we are, in fact, merely part > of the leela - and I find myself standing in front > of my students wondering why on earth I am there > trying to teach them sentence structure when it has > nothing to do with the Truth nor, ultimately, is it > of any value whatsoever. But I certainly can't say > "Hey kids, guess what? You're really just Life, > coming and going like so many waves on the ocean - > in fact, you ARE the ocean and you just don't know > it yet." Or, more realistically, "Hey kids! You > only think you're a human being but you're really > just Consciousness that's temporarily being confined > in a skin bag that's being supported by bone > scaffolding." > > So, please, I need some serious input from the > rest of you; do these kinds of issues cross your > minds? If not, and it's apparent that I'm just > nuts, remember that you're supposed to see Mother in > everyone -demented or otherwise! > Namaste, > Snehalata > > > > > ³Humans have the wrong notion that they can attain > everything through > effort. Effort, in fact, is the pride in us. In > our journey to God, all > efforts that stem from ego will crumble and result > in failure. This, in > fact, is a divine message, the message of the need > for surrender and grace > This eventually helps us to realize the > limitations of our effort, of our > ego. In short, effort teaches us that through > effort alone we will not > attain our goals. Ultimately, grace is the > determining factor. > > Whether it is striving for God-realization or for > achieving worldly desires, > grace is the factor that fulfills the goal.² > > > ~Amma~ > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > Sponsor > > > > > > Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha! > > Ammachi > > > > Terms of Service. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > Protect your identity with Mail AddressGuard http://antispam./whatsnewfree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 And yet some are enlightened by the touch of their guru, suddenly awakened to the Truth of who they are.... like Swami Vivekenanda (is that right?)... So, we have to have faith that our guru knows what we need when we need it. If I need Amma to answer a question, I look it up in one of the Awaken Children books, or one of her official websites. Unless she tells me something directly, I will take what she has told us all as my advice. Does anyone have other methods? Gabriela --- childofdevi <childofdevi wrote: > Snehalata-ji, > > I for one believe that you have to work very hard to > be worthy of > being graced. In other words, if you lie on your bed > all day long > hoping for grace to fall on you, that aint gonna > happen- God nor any > spiritual master rewards laziness. > > If you make a resolve to do japa at a certain time, > then regardless > of whatever(of course use some common sense), you > stick to that > resolve, irrespective of whether you did not sleep > well the previous > night or you missed the previous meal or you are > having a sore > throat... a broken resolve is nothing more than an > admission of weak > willpower. So does that mean I have kept all my > resolutions?? far > from it, I have probably kept 1% of my resolutions, > but every time I > do keep it, it impels me to keep a harder task. > > I recall a comment by Yogananda that we are > embodiments of the divine > and as such our willpower is limitless; while we > cannot build our > reservoir of willpower overnight, it can be build > little by little by > stretching ourselves to do more than we can in the > little things in > life. By the yard its hard, but inch by inch, > everythings' a cinch!!! > > But sometimes when things do not go well inspite of > our best efforts > (keyword- best effort!!), then the master comes > forward and bestows > grace. > > I recall Amma herself saying that when you are > beaten down, you get > up and try to succeed again, and again and ... > again, SHE never said > ok take a break now and goto the Guru and have > him/her get the task > accomplised. > > Has anyone ever experienced what it is like when you > accomplish > something that is normally very hard to do- it is a > rush of joy, a > feeling of fulfillment, a glorious revelation that > we underperform > most of the time. > > My humble and maybe ignorant 2c :-) > yogaman > > > Ammachi, "Dixie Thacker" > <dixielou@s...> wrote: > > > > - > > Kenna > > Ammachi ; Ammachi list > > Wednesday, November 05, 2003 10:46 AM > > Grace and effort > > > > Namaha Shivaya, > > > > Kenna, thank you so much for posting this. My > best friend is a > Daoist and much more spiritually "advanced" than I, > and we had a > discussion along this same thread just a couple of > evenings ago. I, > like many on the list recently, have hit a period of > feeling somewhat > disconnected, and was lamenting to my friend that I > seem to be making > no "progress" whatsoever towards self-realization. > (which follows > another thread we've had that I had already been > worrying about: > where are our discussions of our paths towards > enlightenment? Are we > really seeing what Amma is hoping to make apparent > to us?) > > > > Anyway, my Daoist friend continues to pound it > into my head > (metaphorically speaking!) that "efforting" is, > indeed an act of ego > and an effort to control outcomes-that, in fact, we > only achieve > awareness when we stop struggling and the monkey > mind simply gives up > its effort to convince us that more japas, more > prayers, more chants, > etc will bring us closer to our goals. Only when > the brain gives up > the crown can the atman follow the guiding light of > the guru back to > its holy and rightful throne (metaphorically > speaking). > > > > I can be hard headed and continued to ask my > friend why I > couldn't work towards my own enlightenment...i.e., > step willingly and > willfully across that magical threshold between > Mother's Truth and > our all-too-human reality....and she answered that I > can't do that > because the threshold must come to me. She also > pointed out that > working towards self-realization was virtually > impossible since we > can't even define it until we've achieved it! > > > > And your post, along with a previous post, > follows this up with > an exclamation point from Mother herself: we cannot > awaken by > traipsing from holy place to holy place, by settling > for pacifiers > instead of sustenance, or by efforting - we achieve > our awareness by > surrender and grace. > > > > I, for one, have apparently not laid down my > willfullness or my > desire to achieve grace through my own efforts. And > I would really > like (and need) to hear how others are doing. My > mind ties itself in > knots trying to unravel some of these issues. An > example of my > mental mess: There are days when I am completely > aware that we are, > in fact, merely part of the leela - and I find > myself standing in > front of my students wondering why on earth I am > there trying to > teach them sentence structure when it has nothing to > do with the > Truth nor, ultimately, is it of any value > whatsoever. But I > certainly can't say "Hey kids, guess what? You're > really just Life, > coming and going like so many waves on the ocean - > in fact, you ARE > the ocean and you just don't know it yet." Or, more > > realistically, "Hey kids! You only think you're a > human being but > you're really just Consciousness that's temporarily > being confined in > a skin bag that's being supported by bone > scaffolding." > > > > So, please, I need some serious input from the > rest of you; do > these kinds of issues cross your minds? If not, and > it's apparent > that I'm just nuts, remember that you're supposed to > see Mother in > everyone -demented or otherwise! > > Namaste, > > Snehalata > > > > > > > > > > ³Humans have the wrong notion that they can > attain everything > through > > effort. Effort, in fact, is the pride in us. In > our journey to > God, all > > efforts that stem from ego will crumble and > result in failure. > This, in > > fact, is a divine message, the message of the > need for surrender > and grace > > This eventually helps us to realize the > limitations of our > effort, of our > > ego. In short, effort teaches us that through > effort alone we > will not > > attain our goals. Ultimately, grace is the > determining factor. > > > > Whether it is striving for God-realization or > for achieving > === message truncated === Protect your identity with Mail AddressGuard http://antispam./whatsnewfree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Dear Snehalata, Thanks for posting this. I guess we all struggle with these issues. When all is said and done I think it's important to do sadhana, yet, as Krishna advises in the Bhagavad Gita, don't be attached to the fruits of our actions. Easier said than done! Another way to think about it is Joseph Campbell's "follow your bliss." If meditation and sadhana give you bliss, go for it. If seva or bhajans do that, then follow that. Once an SRF monk told a group of devotees that when he was in India he went to see Anandamayi Ma. He was able to ask her one question. He asked how he might achieve liberation. Her answer was, "Take any one sentence of your guru's and make it your own!" This appealed to me greatly and still does. Perhaps it's natural that one of my all time favorite quotes is this from the Sufi tradition: "Purity of the heart is to will one thing." Jai Ma, Jyotsna --- Dixie Thacker <dixielou wrote: > > - > Kenna > Ammachi ; Ammachi list > Wednesday, November 05, 2003 10:46 AM > Grace and effort > > Namaha Shivaya, > > Kenna, thank you so much for posting this. My > best friend is a Daoist and much more spiritually > "advanced" than I, and we had a discussion along > this same thread just a couple of evenings ago. I, > like many on the list recently, have hit a period of > feeling somewhat disconnected, and was lamenting to > my friend that I seem to be making no "progress" > whatsoever towards self-realization. (which follows > another thread we've had that I had already been > worrying about: where are our discussions of our > paths towards enlightenment? Are we really seeing > what Amma is hoping to make apparent to us?) > > Anyway, my Daoist friend continues to pound it > into my head (metaphorically speaking!) that > "efforting" is, indeed an act of ego and an effort > to control outcomes-that, in fact, we only achieve > awareness when we stop struggling and the monkey > mind simply gives up its effort to convince us that > more japas, more prayers, more chants, etc will > bring us closer to our goals. Only when the brain > gives up the crown can the atman follow the guiding > light of the guru back to its holy and rightful > throne (metaphorically speaking). > > I can be hard headed and continued to ask my > friend why I couldn't work towards my own > enlightenment...i.e., step willingly and willfully > across that magical threshold between Mother's Truth > and our all-too-human reality....and she answered > that I can't do that because the threshold must come > to me. She also pointed out that working towards > self-realization was virtually impossible since we > can't even define it until we've achieved it! > > And your post, along with a previous post, follows > this up with an exclamation point from Mother > herself: we cannot awaken by traipsing from holy > place to holy place, by settling for pacifiers > instead of sustenance, or by efforting - we achieve > our awareness by surrender and grace. > > I, for one, have apparently not laid down my > willfullness or my desire to achieve grace through > my own efforts. And I would really like (and need) > to hear how others are doing. My mind ties itself > in knots trying to unravel some of these issues. An > example of my mental mess: There are days when I am > completely aware that we are, in fact, merely part > of the leela - and I find myself standing in front > of my students wondering why on earth I am there > trying to teach them sentence structure when it has > nothing to do with the Truth nor, ultimately, is it > of any value whatsoever. But I certainly can't say > "Hey kids, guess what? You're really just Life, > coming and going like so many waves on the ocean - > in fact, you ARE the ocean and you just don't know > it yet." Or, more realistically, "Hey kids! You > only think you're a human being but you're really > just Consciousness that's temporarily being confined > in a skin bag that's being supported by bone > scaffolding." > > So, please, I need some serious input from the > rest of you; do these kinds of issues cross your > minds? If not, and it's apparent that I'm just > nuts, remember that you're supposed to see Mother in > everyone -demented or otherwise! > Namaste, > Snehalata > > > > > ³Humans have the wrong notion that they can attain > everything through > effort. Effort, in fact, is the pride in us. In > our journey to God, all > efforts that stem from ego will crumble and result > in failure. This, in > fact, is a divine message, the message of the need > for surrender and grace > This eventually helps us to realize the > limitations of our effort, of our > ego. In short, effort teaches us that through > effort alone we will not > attain our goals. Ultimately, grace is the > determining factor. > > Whether it is striving for God-realization or for > achieving worldly desires, > grace is the factor that fulfills the goal.² > > > ~Amma~ > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > Sponsor > > > > > > Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha! > > Ammachi > > > > Terms of Service. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > Protect your identity with Mail AddressGuard http://antispam./whatsnewfree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Ammachi, "E. Lamb" <jyotsna2> wrote: > Dear Snehalata, > > Thanks for posting this. I guess we all struggle > with these issues. When all is said and done I > think it's important to do sadhana, yet, as Krishna > advises in the Bhagavad Gita, don't be attached to > the fruits of our actions. Easier said than done! > One technique (if it can be called that) I use to be as close to a perfect karma yogin as possible is this: When I am doing a project (or any work), I keep the attitude of "leaving no stone unturned". I tell myself that it does not matter if I am successful or not, but at the end of the day, when I assess my performance, I must be able to tell myself that I have given my all into the work. The inspiring keywords for me are "I must be able to tell myself..." This has helped me a whole lot more than anything else, but I am nowhere near perfect! Jai Ma! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Namah Shivaya Gabriela, Here's my method: "Amma, both you and I are stuck with each other. I won't leave you and I know you can't leave me either. Ok, I dont do my sadhana at the exact same time every day. Ok, I forget to chant mantra sometimes. Ok, I am enslaved by the senses. But, do you think I should be that way, forever? No? Then, lets just work together and you show me how to handle this. If you dont show me the way, nobody will." More often than not, the answer comes either as a distinct thought from within, or as words from someone else's mouth, during the next few days. In cases where there are no 'answers', I take it that no action is required at this time. I take a lot of liberty in my conversations with Amma. Some here would rather have a more 'Guru' oriented approach and might find this offensive. To them, I offer my apologies. Jai Ma! Ravi --- Miranda Soliz <msoliz2000 wrote: > And yet some are enlightened by the touch of their > guru, suddenly awakened to the Truth of who they > are.... like Swami Vivekenanda (is that right?)... > So, we have to have faith that our guru knows what > we > need when we need it. > > If I need Amma to answer a question, I look it up in > one of the Awaken Children books, or one of her > official websites. Unless she tells me something > directly, I will take what she has told us all as my > advice. Does anyone have other methods? > > Gabriela > > > --- childofdevi <childofdevi wrote: > > Snehalata-ji, > > > > I for one believe that you have to work very hard > to > > be worthy of > > being graced. In other words, if you lie on your > bed > > all day long > > hoping for grace to fall on you, that aint gonna > > happen- God nor any > > spiritual master rewards laziness. > > > > If you make a resolve to do japa at a certain > time, > > then regardless > > of whatever(of course use some common sense), you > > stick to that > > resolve, irrespective of whether you did not sleep > > well the previous > > night or you missed the previous meal or you are > > having a sore > > throat... a broken resolve is nothing more than an > > admission of weak > > willpower. So does that mean I have kept all my > > resolutions?? far > > from it, I have probably kept 1% of my > resolutions, > > but every time I > > do keep it, it impels me to keep a harder task. > > > > I recall a comment by Yogananda that we are > > embodiments of the divine > > and as such our willpower is limitless; while we > > cannot build our > > reservoir of willpower overnight, it can be build > > little by little by > > stretching ourselves to do more than we can in the > > little things in > > life. By the yard its hard, but inch by inch, > > everythings' a cinch!!! > > > > But sometimes when things do not go well inspite > of > > our best efforts > > (keyword- best effort!!), then the master comes > > forward and bestows > > grace. > > > > I recall Amma herself saying that when you are > > beaten down, you get > > up and try to succeed again, and again and ... > > again, SHE never said > > ok take a break now and goto the Guru and have > > him/her get the task > > accomplised. > > > > Has anyone ever experienced what it is like when > you > > accomplish > > something that is normally very hard to do- it is > a > > rush of joy, a > > feeling of fulfillment, a glorious revelation that > > we underperform > > most of the time. > > > > My humble and maybe ignorant 2c :-) > > yogaman > > > > > > Ammachi, "Dixie Thacker" > > <dixielou@s...> wrote: > > > > > > - > > > Kenna > > > Ammachi ; Ammachi list > > > Wednesday, November 05, 2003 10:46 AM > > > Grace and effort > > > > > > Namaha Shivaya, > > > > > > Kenna, thank you so much for posting this. My > > best friend is a > > Daoist and much more spiritually "advanced" than > I, > > and we had a > > discussion along this same thread just a couple of > > evenings ago. I, > > like many on the list recently, have hit a period > of > > feeling somewhat > > disconnected, and was lamenting to my friend that > I > > seem to be making > > no "progress" whatsoever towards self-realization. > > > (which follows > > another thread we've had that I had already been > > worrying about: > > where are our discussions of our paths towards > > enlightenment? Are we > > really seeing what Amma is hoping to make apparent > > to us?) > > > > > > Anyway, my Daoist friend continues to pound it > > into my head > > (metaphorically speaking!) that "efforting" is, > > indeed an act of ego > > and an effort to control outcomes-that, in fact, > we > > only achieve > > awareness when we stop struggling and the monkey > > mind simply gives up > > its effort to convince us that more japas, more > > prayers, more chants, > > etc will bring us closer to our goals. Only when > > the brain gives up > > the crown can the atman follow the guiding light > of > > the guru back to > > its holy and rightful throne (metaphorically > > speaking). > > > > > > I can be hard headed and continued to ask my > > friend why I > > couldn't work towards my own enlightenment...i.e., > > step willingly and > > willfully across that magical threshold between > > Mother's Truth and > > our all-too-human reality....and she answered that > I > > can't do that > > because the threshold must come to me. She also > > pointed out that > > working towards self-realization was virtually > > impossible since we > > can't even define it until we've achieved it! > > > > > > And your post, along with a previous post, > > follows this up with > > an exclamation point from Mother herself: we > cannot > > awaken by > > traipsing from holy place to holy place, by > settling > > for pacifiers > > instead of sustenance, or by efforting - we > achieve > > our awareness by > > surrender and grace. > > > > > > I, for one, have apparently not laid down my > > willfullness or my > > desire to achieve grace through my own efforts. > And > > I would really > > like (and need) to hear how others are doing. My > > mind ties itself in > > knots trying to unravel some of these issues. An > > example of my > > mental mess: There are days when I am completely > > aware that we are, > > in fact, merely part of the leela - and I find > > myself standing in > > front of my students wondering why on earth I am > > there trying to > > teach them sentence structure when it has nothing > to > > do with the > > Truth nor, ultimately, is it of any value > > whatsoever. But I > > certainly can't say "Hey kids, guess what? You're > > really just Life, > > coming and going like so many waves on the ocean - > > in fact, you ARE > > the ocean and you just don't know it yet." Or, > more > > > > realistically, "Hey kids! You only think you're a > > human being but > > you're really just Consciousness that's > temporarily > > being confined in > > a skin bag that's being supported by bone > === message truncated === Protect your identity with Mail AddressGuard http://antispam./whatsnewfree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 - childofdevi Ammachi Wednesday, November 05, 2003 8:46 PM Re: Grace and effort Yogaman, Thank you for responding! I think I didn't clarify well enough - by surrender I mean admitting that we can't "think" our way down this path nor can we will it - surrender, in the sense I meant it, means admitting that this cannot be accomplished alone. As Yogananda also says- if we could do this alone, we could put food and water in the mouth of a corpse, cast sunlight on it, and reantimate it. This issue has been a bone of contention between my friend and I and one I struggle with alone. Like you said about yourself, I have excellent intentions and work unbelievable hard doing what I think I am "supposed" to do (and do with great pleasure) but also snag quite badly that, if I ever have the blessing to pass beyond the dualities, I will, indeed, find that "I" could not do any of work alone. And, oddly, Ammachi often confuses this in my mind herself - she accomplished more than anyone I can think of, and does so absolutely beyond the capacity of her diabetic human body. Is this by willpower or because She is totally surrendered to the That and is nothing less than pure "spirit" (bad word choice, but have no other to fit) inside? Yogananda also comments that he must be quite careful of what he asks for, or has in mind to do, because as soon as it occurs to him, it becomes accomplished- he ddid not even need to read a book to know its contents. There is indeed a train of thought that puts all efforting into the category of ego-will and I really don't know what is right-even Yogananda admits that yes, he worked hard, but all was accomplished by grace - even japa is to be done with complete surrender. Delighted with the discourse! Snehalata Snehalata-ji, I for one believe that you have to work very hard to be worthy of being graced. In other words, if you lie on your bed all day long hoping for grace to fall on you, that aint gonna happen- God nor any spiritual master rewards laziness. If you make a resolve to do japa at a certain time, then regardless of whatever(of course use some common sense), you stick to that resolve, irrespective of whether you did not sleep well the previous night or you missed the previous meal or you are having a sore throat... a broken resolve is nothing more than an admission of weak willpower. So does that mean I have kept all my resolutions?? far from it, I have probably kept 1% of my resolutions, but every time I do keep it, it impels me to keep a harder task. I recall a comment by Yogananda that we are embodiments of the divine and as such our willpower is limitless; while we cannot build our reservoir of willpower overnight, it can be build little by little by stretching ourselves to do more than we can in the little things in life. By the yard its hard, but inch by inch, everythings' a cinch!!! But sometimes when things do not go well inspite of our best efforts (keyword- best effort!!), then the master comes forward and bestows grace. I recall Amma herself saying that when you are beaten down, you get up and try to succeed again, and again and ... again, SHE never said ok take a break now and goto the Guru and have him/her get the task accomplised. Has anyone ever experienced what it is like when you accomplish something that is normally very hard to do- it is a rush of joy, a feeling of fulfillment, a glorious revelation that we underperform most of the time. My humble and maybe ignorant 2c :-) yogaman Ammachi, "Dixie Thacker" <dixielou@s...> wrote: > > - > Kenna > Ammachi ; Ammachi list > Wednesday, November 05, 2003 10:46 AM > Grace and effort > > Namaha Shivaya, > > Kenna, thank you so much for posting this. My best friend is a Daoist and much more spiritually "advanced" than I, and we had a discussion along this same thread just a couple of evenings ago. I, like many on the list recently, have hit a period of feeling somewhat disconnected, and was lamenting to my friend that I seem to be making no "progress" whatsoever towards self-realization. (which follows another thread we've had that I had already been worrying about: where are our discussions of our paths towards enlightenment? Are we really seeing what Amma is hoping to make apparent to us?) > > Anyway, my Daoist friend continues to pound it into my head (metaphorically speaking!) that "efforting" is, indeed an act of ego and an effort to control outcomes-that, in fact, we only achieve awareness when we stop struggling and the monkey mind simply gives up its effort to convince us that more japas, more prayers, more chants, etc will bring us closer to our goals. Only when the brain gives up the crown can the atman follow the guiding light of the guru back to its holy and rightful throne (metaphorically speaking). > > I can be hard headed and continued to ask my friend why I couldn't work towards my own enlightenment...i.e., step willingly and willfully across that magical threshold between Mother's Truth and our all-too-human reality....and she answered that I can't do that because the threshold must come to me. She also pointed out that working towards self-realization was virtually impossible since we can't even define it until we've achieved it! > > And your post, along with a previous post, follows this up with an exclamation point from Mother herself: we cannot awaken by traipsing from holy place to holy place, by settling for pacifiers instead of sustenance, or by efforting - we achieve our awareness by surrender and grace. > > I, for one, have apparently not laid down my willfullness or my desire to achieve grace through my own efforts. And I would really like (and need) to hear how others are doing. My mind ties itself in knots trying to unravel some of these issues. An example of my mental mess: There are days when I am completely aware that we are, in fact, merely part of the leela - and I find myself standing in front of my students wondering why on earth I am there trying to teach them sentence structure when it has nothing to do with the Truth nor, ultimately, is it of any value whatsoever. But I certainly can't say "Hey kids, guess what? You're really just Life, coming and going like so many waves on the ocean - in fact, you ARE the ocean and you just don't know it yet." Or, more realistically, "Hey kids! You only think you're a human being but you're really just Consciousness that's temporarily being confined in a skin bag that's being supported by bone scaffolding." > > So, please, I need some serious input from the rest of you; do these kinds of issues cross your minds? If not, and it's apparent that I'm just nuts, remember that you're supposed to see Mother in everyone -demented or otherwise! > Namaste, > Snehalata > > > > > ³Humans have the wrong notion that they can attain everything through > effort. Effort, in fact, is the pride in us. In our journey to God, all > efforts that stem from ego will crumble and result in failure. This, in > fact, is a divine message, the message of the need for surrender and grace > This eventually helps us to realize the limitations of our effort, of our > ego. In short, effort teaches us that through effort alone we will not > attain our goals. Ultimately, grace is the determining factor. > > Whether it is striving for God-realization or for achieving worldly desires, > grace is the factor that fulfills the goal.² > > > ~Amma~ > > > > > > > > Sponsor > > > > > > Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha! > > Ammachi > > > Terms of Service. > > > Sponsor Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha! 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Guest guest Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 Namaste to all... _/\_ My grandmother used to tell me that the "road to hell is paved with good intentions". Meaning, we can intend or mean to do just about anything, but unless we act on it, it's as good as doing nothing. I, for one, do not think that it is willpower that keeps us from straying on our spiritual path. Rather, I believe it is the direct opposite! If we surrender to Her, then we will have no problem sticking to our path because "spiritual being" is our original state. Our souls are like dusty mirrors; the beauty and simplicity lies underneath what is on the surface. It is not that we are trying to enhance the beauty of our simple, human selves. No. It is that we are trying to get through the dust and dirt of our human form and realize our true selves. When we revert to our essence, we will be truly spirit and nothing more. I *know* this in my head, but living it from moment to moment is the challenge. I get caught up in money problems and headaches and employment situations and in-law situations. Am I any more or less realized than someone who "walks the talk" as best they know how without realizing the essence of the teachings? Someone once told me a story about a woman who was of a lower caste and therefore was not allowed into temples in India. However, she found a stone that reminded her of Ganesh. The woman kept the stone very clean, prayed to it daily, and treated it with the utmost respect. The woman could not afford to adorn it with ornaments or sarees or scented oils, but she attained liberation at her death. Why? Because she treated even the stone as if it was Divine. I try to remember this story and live by it, as much as I can. It's not how grand our efforts are, but rather how grand they are to *us*. My last point is this: trying to hold onto the steering wheel of our lives is useless. It is on autopilot, and no matter how much effort we put into turning the car to the left, if it wants to turn to the right...it WILL. We can only be successful in making ourselves miserable by struggling against it. With love, Forever at Amma's feet, Erica Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 Ammachi, "Dixie Thacker" <dixielou@s...> wrote: Om Namah Shivaya > > Anyway, my Daoist friend continues to pound it into my head (metaphorically speaking!) that "efforting" is, indeed an act of ego and an effort to control outcomes-that, in fact, we only achieve awareness when we stop struggling and the monkey mind simply gives up its effort to convince us that more japas, more prayers, more chants, etc will bring us closer to our goals. Only when the brain gives up the crown can the atman follow the guiding light of the guru back to its holy and rightful throne (metaphorically speaking). Effort may very well be a form of ego, and yet the paradox is, we still must strive with all our being until we reach the goal. You will find this with all the great beings. Even Ramakrishna Paramahamsa put forth tremendous effort...calling his Divine Mother Kali with his every breath. He practised all the sadhanas. So we must never stop trying. But I think there is a certain balance we can achieve. One must give up doership...then the struggle and effort eases and grace follows. We must stop feeling that we are doing it all. This is ego. And by the way, "more japas, more prayers, more chants, etc." are all sincere "efforts", as well. This, too, is truly an effort...a true undertaking. The struggle is in the "I am doing it all" approach...letting go of this is letting grace flow. Lisa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 Ammachi, Miranda Soliz <msoliz2000> wrote: > And yet some are enlightened by the touch of their > guru, suddenly awakened to the Truth of who they > are.... like Swami Vivekenanda (is that right?)... > So, we have to have faith that our guru knows what we > need when we need it. If you read Sw. Vivekananda's biography (by Sw. Nikhilananda) and the scores of collected writings and talks by Sw. V., himself (and I recommend doing this highly), you will see how much he had to struggle. But he was surrendered to his guru and to the Divine. This surrender, of course, is the key...it relieves any burden of doership. But Vivekananda was not an ordinary man. He was a divine messenger who was awakened from his divine splendor in the highest planes of consciousness and was called (I'm not sure if I'm remembering this correctly...I'll have to go back and reread some of my old texts), I believe by Ramakrishna, to join him and take an earthly incarnation in order to serve as this divine messenger to mankind. No wonder it only took a touch from his guru...his destiny was already sealed, his mission already assigned...he really didn't come down to this earthly plane to do sadhana. That is the difference. And yet, he suffered immensely...perhaps more than anyone. His heart was so enormous...he felt the pain and burden of humanity on his shoulders. But because great beings don't identify with this pain as we do...they witness it...they live in a continued state of grace. Lisa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 Ammachi, "manoj_menon" <manoj_menon> wrote: > One technique (if it can be called that) I use to be as close to a > perfect karma yogin as possible is this: > > When I am doing a project (or any work), I keep the attitude > of "leaving no stone unturned". I tell myself that it does not matter > if I am successful or not, but at the end of the day, when I assess > my performance, I must be able to tell myself that I have given my > all into the work. > > The inspiring keywords for me are "I must be able to tell myself..." > > This has helped me a whole lot more than anything else, but I am > nowhere near perfect! > > Jai Ma! Sound a little like something Sri Aurobindo said. He says to give your work everything you've got, without the sense of success or failure. Just do it as your supreme duty. And if failure should follow, don't even flinch. And then just pick yourself up and start over. I feel this is true karma yoga. And here, the ego isn't involved with all of it's winey emotions of failure, etc. Just to be detached. And Amma has also said that our failures only bring us to God, because then we finally surrender and say and offer ourselves to God. L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 > > Yogaman, > > Thank you for responding! I think I didn't clarify well enough - by surrender I mean admitting that we can't "think" our way down this path nor can we will it - surrender, in the sense I meant it, means Snehalata-ji, I agree that we cannot "think" way down the path but we can certainly will it(my opinion OK)- whether willing is beneficial to us or not is another question; that is what a guru is for guidance. Will is to the mind what muscle is to the body, it is only a fluid source of energy- there is an excellant source discussion of what willpower is in the book "Success in life and God realisation" by Swami Sivananda. >admitting that this cannot be accomplished alone. As Yogananda also >says- if we could do this alone, we could put food and water in the >mouth of a corpse, cast sunlight on it, and reantimate it. Of we could animate a corpse, i mean the power is latent. Did not Jesus do that and did not Jesus all say that "All that I have done, ye can do much more"(a oft repeated quote of Yogananda) >all efforting into the category of ego-will and I really don't know >what is right-even Yogananda admits that yes, he worked hard, but >all was accomplished by grace - even japa is to be done with >complete surrender. Yes but we need some degree of efforting; dont we go eat when we are hungry, or do we wait for someone to come and feed us; perhaps when at the level of great saints, they can feel that everything is divine will and that we are only puppets in the hands of a master puppeteer. Ask anyone who goes to Amma's ashram- does not Amma make work hard as hell to build up a sufficient reservoir of willpower. In my opinion, egoistic willing is still better than unegoistic unwilling. I am sure that Amma will agree that had Bill Gates decided to go into spirituality, he probably would have soured high coz success in worldy life or spiritual life needs a considerable degree of willpower. Snehalata-ji, this is an interesting discussion, I will come back a little later on. Right now my manager is beating on my back to get some things done. -warm regards yogaman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 - lbrachlin Ammachi Thursday, November 06, 2003 1:09 PM Re: Grace and effort Ammachi, "Dixie Thacker" <dixielou@s...> wrote: Namah Shivaya, Lisa I am not sure I can agree that japa, etc are always "true undertakings." I am still struggling with this, tho, so bear with me. I've recently realized that I frequently "do" my mantra, japa, whatever, with the subconscious goal of "advancing" myself spiritually. This is by no means the same as doing these as tributes to the guru/God/Mother or whomever is supposedly being honored by my practice. Nor does it seem to me to be the same thing as invoking these Beings thru chanting or crying out to them because of the pain of separation from them. Does this make any sense? Namaste, Snehalata PS I am so glad we're discussing some of these issues. Thanks, all. Om Namah Shivaya > > Anyway, my Daoist friend continues to pound it into my head (metaphorically speaking!) that "efforting" is, indeed an act of ego and an effort to control outcomes-that, in fact, we only achieve awareness when we stop struggling and the monkey mind simply gives up its effort to convince us that more japas, more prayers, more chants, etc will bring us closer to our goals. Only when the brain gives up the crown can the atman follow the guiding light of the guru back to its holy and rightful throne (metaphorically speaking). Effort may very well be a form of ego, and yet the paradox is, we still must strive with all our being until we reach the goal. You will find this with all the great beings. Even Ramakrishna Paramahamsa put forth tremendous effort...calling his Divine Mother Kali with his every breath. He practised all the sadhanas. So we must never stop trying. But I think there is a certain balance we can achieve. One must give up doership...then the struggle and effort eases and grace follows. We must stop feeling that we are doing it all. This is ego. And by the way, "more japas, more prayers, more chants, etc." are all sincere "efforts", as well. This, too, is truly an effort...a true undertaking. The struggle is in the "I am doing it all" approach...letting go of this is letting grace flow. Lisa Sponsor Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha! Ammachi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 - childofdevi Ammachi Thursday, November 06, 2003 1:34 PM Re: Grace and effort Namaste, I am SO delighted to be able to discuss some of this!!!!! Yes, we DO eat when we're hungry -but I guess my end-of-the-road question is: Why do we eat when we're hungry? Please don't misunderstand - I am NOT advocating a shiftless do-nothing attitude nor do I feel I'm suggesting that there is no need for personal accountability. But - and this is a big one for me - is it lack of faith and/or pride on our part to believe we have to feed ourselves? (Yikes, how to do this without sounding like a dead beat, which I'm not. I worked full time, raised kids, and went back to college in my late forties -graduated high enough to have been asked to speak at my graduation!). My thinking runs like this - Mother hit a period in Her life when She did not eat of her own free will and was fed by an eagle dropping fish in Her lap. Yogananda once either met a woman who had not physically eaten for years or hetaught a young woman how to live without taking in human nourishment - this was accomplished by a particular breathing technique that somehow involved the medula obligata (sp). And, of course Himalayan yogis are known for surviving quite well without eating for long periods of time. Christ tells us that we could move the mountains to the sea with the smallest amount of faith; obviously, we cannot train hard enough to do this, nor can we build our willpower up to accomplish such a task unless...... When we talk about "surrender" of the ego/will, are we perhaps actually talking about having to apply our greatest willpower to do so? Think of how easy it is to keep our bad habits and how hard it is to develop the will needed to overcome them; total surrender must, by definition, include the relenquishing of outcomes, attachments, etc- perhaps even giving up the notion that incessant prayer will bring us closer to That? Do we, in fact, need our utmost will to admit that we cannot bring the Divine Mother to us - even if we pray til our heads fall off - and accept, humbly, that She will come to us when She does? Thank you again for helping me muddle thru this. THis is what I needed when I joined the list -or so says my monkey mind!!! Namaste, Snehalata > > Yogaman, > > Thank you for responding! I think I didn't clarify well enough - by surrender I mean admitting that we can't "think" our way down this path nor can we will it - surrender, in the sense I meant it, means Snehalata-ji, I agree that we cannot "think" way down the path but we can certainly will it(my opinion OK)- whether willing is beneficial to us or not is another question; that is what a guru is for guidance. Will is to the mind what muscle is to the body, it is only a fluid source of energy- there is an excellant source discussion of what willpower is in the book "Success in life and God realisation" by Swami Sivananda. >admitting that this cannot be accomplished alone. As Yogananda also >says- if we could do this alone, we could put food and water in the >mouth of a corpse, cast sunlight on it, and reantimate it. Of we could animate a corpse, i mean the power is latent. Did not Jesus do that and did not Jesus all say that "All that I have done, ye can do much more"(a oft repeated quote of Yogananda) >all efforting into the category of ego-will and I really don't know >what is right-even Yogananda admits that yes, he worked hard, but >all was accomplished by grace - even japa is to be done with >complete surrender. Yes but we need some degree of efforting; dont we go eat when we are hungry, or do we wait for someone to come and feed us; perhaps when at the level of great saints, they can feel that everything is divine will and that we are only puppets in the hands of a master puppeteer. Ask anyone who goes to Amma's ashram- does not Amma make work hard as hell to build up a sufficient reservoir of willpower. In my opinion, egoistic willing is still better than unegoistic unwilling. I am sure that Amma will agree that had Bill Gates decided to go into spirituality, he probably would have soured high coz success in worldy life or spiritual life needs a considerable degree of willpower. Snehalata-ji, this is an interesting discussion, I will come back a little later on. Right now my manager is beating on my back to get some things done. -warm regards yogaman Sponsor Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha! Ammachi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 - lbrachlin Ammachi Thursday, November 06, 2003 1:29 PM Re: Grace and effort Ammachi, "manoj_menon" <manoj_menon> wrote: Namaste, I apply a very similar philosophy to my work days and dedicate the efforts of the day ahead to Mother each day as I drive to school. Still, I cannot help wondering, at times, why I spend my days as I do when guru after guru insists that our sole "purpose" is to discover the Truth of our own natures. I'm not always sure that spending my days teaching English to teenagers properly prioritizes on the time I have in this lifetime! i.e. If they pass their standardized testing, do I get to be enlightened? (-: Always at Amma's feet, Snehalata > One technique (if it can be called that) I use to be as close to a > perfect karma yogin as possible is this: > > When I am doing a project (or any work), I keep the attitude > of "leaving no stone unturned". I tell myself that it does not matter > if I am successful or not, but at the end of the day, when I assess > my performance, I must be able to tell myself that I have given my > all into the work. > > The inspiring keywords for me are "I must be able to tell myself..." > > This has helped me a whole lot more than anything else, but I am > nowhere near perfect! > > Jai Ma! Sound a little like something Sri Aurobindo said. He says to give your work everything you've got, without the sense of success or failure. Just do it as your supreme duty. And if failure should follow, don't even flinch. And then just pick yourself up and start over. I feel this is true karma yoga. And here, the ego isn't involved with all of it's winey emotions of failure, etc. Just to be detached. And Amma has also said that our failures only bring us to God, because then we finally surrender and say and offer ourselves to God. L Sponsor Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha! Ammachi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 > > Namaste, > I am SO delighted to be able to discuss some of this!!!!! Yes, we DO eat when we're hungry -but I guess my end-of-the-road question is: Why do we eat when we're hungry? Snehalata-ji, Why do you eat- because you believe that you have to eat when you are hungry LOL that simple. I fully believe that one can live without eating(as crazy as that sounds)-I once read a book about Breatharianism(they believe they dont need to eat) and it turned out that a few days after reading this book, I totally lost my appetite; I did not eat anything nor did I loose any body weight for many days and I was so full of energy. I was initially scared as hell and was scared as hell that my intestines would dry out or something if I did not eat. Eventually I did some intense visualization and started eating again.(Since then I came across many people who have no need to eat) Now I know for certain that I can if I want again get back to that state where I dont need to eat; but whats the point. When food tastes so good, why would you not want to eat :-) Now that brings us to another point- Belief- the power of belief in a parable by Ramakrishna- a saint gave an amulet to a fellow that had the power to enable the wearer to walk on water. So this fellow started walking on the Ganges with the amulet. Now in the middle of the Ganges he had a curious desire to open up the amulet; he did so and found the letters ra-ma written on the paper; and he thought to himself how can this simple thing make him walk on water; and LO instantly he sank into the Ganges LOL. > My thinking runs like this - Mother hit a period in Her life when >She did not eat of her own free will and was fed by an eagle > > Christ tells us that we could move the mountains to the sea with >the smallest amount of faith; obviously, we cannot train hard enough >to do this, nor can we build our willpower up to accomplish such a How do you know that you cannot do this?? You can and you can do much more(according to Christ himself), but in all things you have to make to start off with small things and then move onto bigger things. This is the Yogananda approach, develop your willpower so that you can easily do things that you could not do before, and then go onto more difficult things, and then onto more difficult things..... > > When we talk about "surrender" of the ego/will, are we perhaps Arent will and ego two separate things; surrender of the ego is what is recommended, the petty mind that has limitless desires and constantly hanker after this or that- but that does not mean that you have relinquish your willpower. In fact if you relinquish your willpower, you would not even be able to lift your hand(again according to Yogananda) for even small things need some degree of willpower. Only a corpse has truly given up all willpower. >actually talking about having to apply our greatest willpower to do >so? Think of how easy it is to keep our bad habits and how hard it >is to develop the will needed to overcome them; total surrender It is hard to develop the will but not impossible but this the point. By all accounts Self-Realisation is the hardest thing to attain- if we lack willpower to remove some bad habits(which is by far considerably easier), then how can we even hope to attain Self- realisation. Hey why dont you ask Amma herself what exactly true surrender is? Ignorant people like myself have only opinions:-) warm regards yogaman >must, by definition, include the relenquishing of outcomes, >attachments, etc- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2003 Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 - childofdevi Ammachi Thursday, November 06, 2003 8:45 PM Re: Grace and effort Yogaman, Thank you again; I agree straight down the line with your response. I ask Amma about this in my prayers and in what seem to be one-sided conversations all the time, but either I cannot listen well enough to hear, do not recognize her response, or am not ready! (or any other reason Mother might have for not letting this be clear to me.) Oddly, I don't necessarily even want to do the things we've discussed; I just get concerned that I, and we on the list collectively,rarely seem to focus on what Mother called, in her "warning" message, real food. We do play with the pacifiers - or I feel that I do when I take pride, pleasure, etc in a job well done, etc. And is it just my imagination or, in fact, did the "warning" get misconstrued? It is my understanding that Amma is beyond the dualities- therefore, her "warning" would have been neither good nor bad; it would have simply been a statement of what IS. I would love to have even one hour to ask Mother questions; I do feel at times that my mind is going to literally wear itself out on some of these questions. Smaller ones She answers so that I can "hear" the response inside me (spoken words in my chest, if that makes any sense) but on the big stuff, She's a mum mum! About to chew Her toes off with frustration, Snehalata > Namaste, > I am SO delighted to be able to discuss some of this!!!!! Yes, we DO eat when we're hungry -but I guess my end-of-the-road question is: Why do we eat when we're hungry? Snehalata-ji, Why do you eat- because you believe that you have to eat when you are hungry LOL that simple. I fully believe that one can live without eating(as crazy as that sounds)-I once read a book about Breatharianism(they believe they dont need to eat) and it turned out that a few days after reading this book, I totally lost my appetite; I did not eat anything nor did I loose any body weight for many days and I was so full of energy. I was initially scared as hell and was scared as hell that my intestines would dry out or something if I did not eat. Eventually I did some intense visualization and started eating again.(Since then I came across many people who have no need to eat) Now I know for certain that I can if I want again get back to that state where I dont need to eat; but whats the point. When food tastes so good, why would you not want to eat :-) Now that brings us to another point- Belief- the power of belief in a parable by Ramakrishna- a saint gave an amulet to a fellow that had the power to enable the wearer to walk on water. So this fellow started walking on the Ganges with the amulet. Now in the middle of the Ganges he had a curious desire to open up the amulet; he did so and found the letters ra-ma written on the paper; and he thought to himself how can this simple thing make him walk on water; and LO instantly he sank into the Ganges LOL. > My thinking runs like this - Mother hit a period in Her life when >She did not eat of her own free will and was fed by an eagle > > Christ tells us that we could move the mountains to the sea with >the smallest amount of faith; obviously, we cannot train hard enough >to do this, nor can we build our willpower up to accomplish such a How do you know that you cannot do this?? You can and you can do much more(according to Christ himself), but in all things you have to make to start off with small things and then move onto bigger things. This is the Yogananda approach, develop your willpower so that you can easily do things that you could not do before, and then go onto more difficult things, and then onto more difficult things..... > > When we talk about "surrender" of the ego/will, are we perhaps Arent will and ego two separate things; surrender of the ego is what is recommended, the petty mind that has limitless desires and constantly hanker after this or that- but that does not mean that you have relinquish your willpower. In fact if you relinquish your willpower, you would not even be able to lift your hand(again according to Yogananda) for even small things need some degree of willpower. Only a corpse has truly given up all willpower. >actually talking about having to apply our greatest willpower to do >so? Think of how easy it is to keep our bad habits and how hard it >is to develop the will needed to overcome them; total surrender It is hard to develop the will but not impossible but this the point. By all accounts Self-Realisation is the hardest thing to attain- if we lack willpower to remove some bad habits(which is by far considerably easier), then how can we even hope to attain Self- realisation. Hey why dont you ask Amma herself what exactly true surrender is? Ignorant people like myself have only opinions:-) warm regards yogaman >must, by definition, include the relenquishing of outcomes, >attachments, etc- Sponsor Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha! Ammachi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2003 Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 Ammachi, "Dixie Thacker" <dixielou@s...> wrote: > It is my understanding that Amma is beyond the dualities- therefore, her "warning" would have been neither good nor bad; it would have simply been a statement of what IS. The way I look at it, it may have been a statement for Herself, but it WAS a WARNING for me, and a BAD warning! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2003 Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 Dear Snehalata, Yes! You absolutely "get to be enlightened" by teaching English to teenagers!! Krishna says in the Gita that we must do our duty. For you, your duty is to teach these kids how to communicate effectively in this world. It is a noble pursuit you have undertaken, dear sister. Do your duty with love and devotion. It is your karma that you are a householder now...a teacher...a person living where you do and a person with the body that you have. We must accept these strange things as all being part and parcel of living a spiritual life. Some of the most spiritual people I know are also the busiest, in terms of day-to-day activities. One man I know (a VERY advanced devi bhakta with siddhis to boot) asked me -- when I was surprised that he was just like any other man -- "What did you expect? I'd be sitting here in a loin cloth meditating all day?" He has grandchildren and a business to run and a wife that nags him, just like everyone else. Yes, this is all maya...all part of Mother's great play...but we still have to follow the rules here. There are traffic laws and laws of gravity and the laws of cause and effect. There are still bills to be paid, as you and I so deeply realize. The key to all of this is to do our duty with so much bhakti that it overflows onto others. Much love you sister Snehalata... At Amma's feet, Erica > Namaste, > > I apply a very similar philosophy to my work days and dedicate the efforts of the day ahead to Mother each day as I drive to school. Still, I cannot help wondering, at times, why I spend my days as I do when guru after guru insists that our sole "purpose" is to discover the Truth of our own natures. I'm not always sure that spending my days teaching English to teenagers properly prioritizes on the time I have in this lifetime! i.e. If they pass their standardized testing, do I get to be enlightened? (-: > Always at Amma's feet, > Snehalata Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2003 Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 - Erica Ammachi Friday, November 07, 2003 8:59 AM Re: Grace and effort Namaste, Sister Erica, Thank you so much! Particularly after a day like today - if 100 + thirteen year olds with rampant hormones, sassy mouths, "DO we HAVE to?" whines, and super grins don't give me enough pracitice at maintaining an even state of mind under all conditions, I don't know what will! We had a Veteran's Day celebration today and during the midst of the program, one of my darlings motioned for me to come to his seat, which I did. He whispered, loudly enough to wake the dead, "Will you keep this for me so I don't lose it?" Before I could ask "Keep what?" he grabbed my hand and dropped the bloody tooth he had just pulled into it. And, as you say, I did my duty with grace and love...I was the best darn tooth receptacle you've ever seen! Thank you for such a lovely and thoughtful response...there is great love in teaching and often, I suspect the lvoe I try to give is the sum total that a few of my kids see all day. Always, Snehalata Dear Snehalata, Yes! You absolutely "get to be enlightened" by teaching English to teenagers!! Krishna says in the Gita that we must do our duty. For you, your duty is to teach these kids how to communicate effectively in this world. It is a noble pursuit you have undertaken, dear sister. Do your duty with love and devotion. It is your karma that you are a householder now...a teacher...a person living where you do and a person with the body that you have. We must accept these strange things as all being part and parcel of living a spiritual life. Some of the most spiritual people I know are also the busiest, in terms of day-to-day activities. One man I know (a VERY advanced devi bhakta with siddhis to boot) asked me -- when I was surprised that he was just like any other man -- "What did you expect? I'd be sitting here in a loin cloth meditating all day?" He has grandchildren and a business to run and a wife that nags him, just like everyone else. Yes, this is all maya...all part of Mother's great play...but we still have to follow the rules here. There are traffic laws and laws of gravity and the laws of cause and effect. There are still bills to be paid, as you and I so deeply realize. The key to all of this is to do our duty with so much bhakti that it overflows onto others. Much love you sister Snehalata... At Amma's feet, Erica > Namaste, > > I apply a very similar philosophy to my work days and dedicate the efforts of the day ahead to Mother each day as I drive to school. Still, I cannot help wondering, at times, why I spend my days as I do when guru after guru insists that our sole "purpose" is to discover the Truth of our own natures. I'm not always sure that spending my days teaching English to teenagers properly prioritizes on the time I have in this lifetime! i.e. If they pass their standardized testing, do I get to be enlightened? (-: > Always at Amma's feet, > Snehalata Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha! Ammachi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2003 Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 --- lbrachlin <lalita120 wrote: > Ammachi, Miranda Soliz > <msoliz2000> wrote: > > And yet some are enlightened by the touch of their > > guru, suddenly awakened to the Truth of who they > > are.... like Swami Vivekenanda (is that right?)... > > > So, we have to have faith that our guru knows what > we > > need when we need it. > > If you read Sw. Vivekananda's biography (by Sw. > Nikhilananda) and the > scores of collected writings and talks by Sw. V., > himself (and I > recommend doing this highly), you will see how much > he had to > struggle. But he was surrendered to his guru and to > the Divine. This > surrender, of course, is the key...it relieves any > burden of > doership. But Vivekananda was not an ordinary man. > He was a divine > messenger who was awakened from his divine splendor > in the highest > planes of consciousness and was called (I'm not sure > if I'm > remembering this correctly...I'll have to go back > and reread some of > my old texts), I believe by Ramakrishna, to join him > and take an > earthly incarnation in order to serve as this divine > messenger to > mankind. No wonder it only took a touch from his > guru...his destiny > was already sealed, his mission already > assigned...he really didn't > come down to this earthly plane to do sadhana. That > is the > difference. And yet, he suffered immensely...perhaps > more than > anyone. His heart was so enormous...he felt the pain > and burden of > humanity on his shoulders. But because great beings > don't identify > with this pain as we do...they witness it...they > live in a continued > state of grace. > > Lisa > > I considerd and consider Sw.Vivekanada as my hero (besides Ramana Maharshi). Intrestingly I met a Japanese student from UCLA Berkley in NYC during Ammachi's 2001 summer tour. While doing the seva, I asked him if he had taken mantra from Ammachi, he replied he has no intention of taking mantra from Ammachi, since he was already initiated by Swami Buteshananda. I knew that Swami Buteshananda was the late president of Ramakrishna Mission who had maha samadhi in 1998, as for I knew he didn't travelled much in his later years, and I had one question in my mind, how does a Japanese student come into contact with this Swamiji? I explained my curiosty. Then the Japanesse explained that Sw.Vivekanada is his hero, infact he was so influenced by Vivekanada teachings that,he visited Belur Math, Dakshinehwar,Kalighat, Jayarambati (Birth place of Sri Sarada Devi), Baranagore Monastry etc, and when he was expaining tears where rolling in his eyes. I was deeply touched. It was said that his teachings will defenetly move and change people belonging to different cultures, different races from different time periods,and I have expereinced that. Regards Avinash Ramidi Protect your identity with Mail AddressGuard http://antispam./whatsnewfree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2003 Report Share Posted November 8, 2003 Snehalata-ji, you are definitely very patient. Now think about this- one of your students could end up being the president of the united states- i mean the possibility is in latency, this kid could be waiting for the right words of encouragement from the right person to shoot forth(I can think of at least a few world leaders, who attributed their success to something their high school teachers told them) in life. this means that the future of the united states is in your hands right now !! that directly implies that future of mother earth is in your hands. since as far as we know life exists only on planet earth, and so now you are responsible for the universe!! It is undoubtably a great responsibility and it is not for nothing that AMMA put you in charge:-) I want to end this with a quote from Zig Ziglar "Children run towards where there is excitement, they STAY where there is love" -yogaman > > Thank you so much! Particularly after a day like today - if 100 + thirteen year olds with rampant hormones, sassy mouths, "DO we HAVE to?" whines, and super grins been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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