Please solve my question

[Guest guest]

Dear brothers and sisters,

 

Hope everybody is fine. I would like to clarify

many doubts that arises outof my mind constantly.I

dont know wether its better idea to put forward this

thoughts or not but today i would like to open my mind

and share my thoughts with all.

As a Hindu I have been thaught to pray to an idol or

worship the same as god. I have been doing constantly

from my childhood.Manytimes I was posed by a question

that

 

1. The idol or statue is made by a person and that is

worshipped.I have asked many people but they say what

ever you do it sincerely wether you worship an idol or

statue.It should come from heart. some say these

prayers are recieved by god and it is a medium like

love between two hearts. But iam not satisfied with

the answer. I donot know . I am confused and

dumbfolded by those answers.

 

can you solve my problem.

 

jai sairam.

[Guest guest]

Sai Ram Arjun,

 

Here is a compilation of comments on idol-worship by Satya Sai Baba,

Ramakrishna and Swami Vivekananda.

 

Hope this helps,

Mangala

 

*********************************************************************

 

Sai Baba answers a devotee's question:

 

Many people feel that Hindus worship countless gods. How did this

happen?

 

Sri Sathya Sai Baba:

 

India has a wonderful religious tradition. It has something for

everyone, to suit everyone's needs. Many people do not understand

this excellent idea and make derisory comments on our having too many

gods. This tradition has evolved to suit the needs of different

people, just as we have shirts of varying types and sizes to fit

different people. With the ideal of One God, there is only one shirt

and, if it does not fit or if it is unsuitable, people turn away from

God. But, here, if someone likes Krishna, they can worship Krishna;

others can worship Rama, or Narayana, or Shiva, or even snakes and

lions! What more do you need to propagate the idea that God is in

everything everywhere? That is why I often say don't worship God as a

picture, but worship the picture as God. This will slowly lead to the

realization of God in you. That is where the Hindu spiritual path is

practical and good.

 

*********************************************************************

 

Excerpt from "Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna", the conversations of Sri

Ramakrishna with his disciples, devotees, and visitors, recorded by

Mahendranath Gupta, who wrote the book under the pseudonym of "M."

 

MASTER: "Well, do you believe in God with form or without form?"

 

M., rather surprised to himself: "How can one believe in God without

form when one believes in God with form? And if one believes in God

without form, how can one believe that God has a form? Can these two

contradictory ideas be true at the same time? Can a white liquid like

milk be black?"

 

M: "Sir, I like to think of God as formless."

 

MASTER: "Very good. It is enough to have faith in either aspect. You

believe in God without form; that is quite all right. But never for a

moment think that this alone is true and all else false. Remember

that God with form is just as true as God without form. But hold fast

to your own conviction."

 

The assertion that both are equally true amazed M.; he had never

learnt this from his books. Thus his ego received a third blow; but

since it was not yet completely crushed, he came forward to argue

with the Master a little more.

 

M: "Sir, suppose one believes in God with form. Certainly He is not

the clay image!"

 

MASTER (interrupting): "But why clay? It is an image of Spirit."

 

M. could not quite understand the significance of this "image of

Spirit". "But, sir," he said to the Master, "one should explain to

those who worship the clay image that it is not God, and that, while

worshipping it, they should have God in view and not the clay image.

One should not worship clay."

 

MASTER (sharply): "That's the one hobby of you Calcutta people -

giving lectures and bringing others to the light! Nobody ever stops

to consider how to get the light himself. Who are you to teach

others? He who is the Lord of the Universe will teach everyone. He

alone teaches us, who has created this universe; who has made the sun

and moon, men and beasts, and all other beings; who has provided

means for their sustenance; who has given children parents and

endowed them with love to bring them up. The Lord has done so many

things -- will He not show people the way to worship Him? If they

need teaching, then He will be the Teacher. He is our Inner Guide."

 

"Suppose there is an error in worshipping the clay image; doesn't God

know that through it He alone is being invoked? He will be pleased

with that very worship. Why should you get a headache over it? You

had better try for knowledge and devotion yourself."

 

This time M. felt that his ego was completely crushed. He now said to

himself: "Yes, he has spoken the truth. What need is there for me to

teach others? Have I known God? Do I really love Him? 'I haven't room

enough for myself in my bed, and I am inviting my friend to share it

with me!' I know nothing about God, yet I am trying to teach others.

What a shame! How foolish I am! This is not mathematics or history or

literature, that one can teach it to others. No, this is the deep

mystery of God. What he says appeals to me."

 

This was M.'s first argument with the Master, and happily his last.

 

MASTER: "You were talking of worshipping the clay image. Even if the

image is made of clay, there is need for that sort of worship. God

Himself has provided different forms of worship. He who is the Lord

of the Universe has arranged all these forms to suit different men in

different stages of knowledge.

 

"The mother cooks different dishes to suit the stomachs of her

different children. Suppose she has five children. If there is fish

to cook, she prepares various dishes from it -- pilau, picked fish,

fried fish, and so on -- to suit different tastes and powers of

digestion. Do you understand me?"

 

**********************************************************************

 

Swami Vivekananda on The Need of Symbols:

 

What are these lower phases of worship? They are various. In order to

attain to the state where we can realise, we must pass through the

concrete - just as you see children learn through the concrete first -

and gradually come to the abstract. If you tell a baby that five

times two is ten, it will not understand; but if you bring ten things

and show how five times two is ten, it will understand. Religion is a

long, slow process. We are all of us babies here; we may be old, and

have studied all the books in the universe, but we are all spiritual

babies. We have learnt the doctrines and dogmas, but realised nothing

in our lives. We shall have to begin now in the concrete, through

forms and words, prayers and ceremonies; and of these concrete forms

there will be thousands; one form need not be for everybody. Some may

be helped by images, some may not. Some require an image outside,

others one inside the brain. The man who puts it inside says, "I am a

superior man. When it is inside it is all right; when it is outside,

it is idolatry, I will fight it." When a man puts an image in the

form of a church or a temple, he thinks it is holy; but when it is in

a human form, he objects to it! From time to time, there have been

reformers in every religion who have stood against all symbols and

rituals. But vain has been their opposition, for so long as man will

remain as he is, the vast majority will always want something

concrete to hold on to, something around which, as it were, to

place their ideas, something which will be the centre of all the

thought-forms in their minds.

 

So there are various forms through which the mind will take this

concrete exercise; and then, step by step, we shall come to the

abstract understanding, abstract realisation. Again, the same form is

not for everyone; there is one form that will suit you, and another

will suit somebody else, and so on. All forms, though leading to the

same goal, may not be for all of us. Here is another mistake we

generally make. My ideal does not suit you; and why should I force it

on you? My fashion of building churches or reading hymns does not

suit you; why should I force it on you? Go into the world and every

fool will tell you that his form is the only right one, that every

other form is diabolical, and he is the only chosen man ever born in

the universe. But in fact, all these forms are good and helpful. Just

as there are certain varieties in human nature, so it is necessary

that there should be an equal number of forms in religion; and the

more there are, the better for the world. If there are twenty forms

of religion in the world, it is very good; if there are four hundred,

so much the better - there will be the more to choose from. So we

should rather be glad when the number of religions and religious

ideas increase and multiply, because they will then include every man

and help mankind more. Would to God that religions multiplied until

every man had his own religion, quite separate from that of any

other! This is the idea of the Bhakti-Yogi.

 

The final idea is that my religion cannot be yours, or yours mine.

Although the goal and the aim are the same, yet each one has to take

a different road, according to the tendencies of his mind; and

although these roads are various, they must all be true, because they

lead to the same goal. It cannot be that one is true and the rest

not. The choosing of one's own road

is called in the language of Bhakti, Ishta, the chosen way.

 

*********************************************************************

 

 

saibabanews, arjun pharmaco

<arjun_pharmaco> wrote:

>

> Dear brothers and sisters,.....

[Guest guest]

I think it shows your loyalty to God that you pray to your statue which you

learned from your religion, and at the same time your devotion to Baba is

shown in your questioning whether you should or not. May I humbly say that

it is your intention that counts; There are many names for God and I do not

believe she cares what we call her as long as we pray with love and caring.

As Baba says, Love all, serve all. And the other quote I like is when he

says, inner view not interview; He wants us to respect and love all life

and show it in our moment to moment living. We need to be much gentler with

ourselves, it is the quality of our living which shows how well we listen to

Baba.. Joe

 

 

 

>arjun pharmaco <arjun_pharmaco

>saibabanews

>[saibabanews] Please solve my question

[Guest guest]

I can explain what I know that I had read from Swami's many discourses and from

other books like Symbology of Idols from Swami Swahaananda's books, Ramakrishna

mission.

Swami talks about 4 stages of worship in his Prasnottara Vaahini

"Alpa Budhi" , 'Jignaasu', 'Dwija", and "Mumukshu"

Alpa Budhi is the basic rung of the ladder of spiritual attainment. In this

stage if you are perfect that is good for that stage of worship. In this stage

a seeker is dependent upon the object and a form of for that diety. An IDOL

becomes a focal point for focusing and showing the object. In this stage there

will be a second step up on the rung of the ladder, The stage of Dwija where

rituals and worship are important for that IDOL.

Once the stage of Rituals and the repetition of the name occurs, the next stage

seeks through scholarship of various scriptures as to what is written about GOD.

Then comes the final stage of MUMUKSHATWAM, when the ever pervading

CONSCIOUSNESS is felt within and around. At that stage an IDOL is not

necessary.

An IDOL also is a symbolic representation to give the message that energy and

the form of individual's liking..

An IDOL is the road and the worship is the poinbting finger to that road. The

final stage end s the IDOL worship. Highly evolved spiritual seeker needs a

seva opportunity as that seeker is ready to serve "GOD in MAN".

Why are the Idols black?

Majority of the IDOLS are black, as they are the good absorbers of electric

energy. What is GOD? A source of ELECTRO MAGNETIC field. When SOUNDS of HYMNS

are sung, the sonic waves create an electro magnetic field. That electro

magnetic field is absorbed by the black IDOLS as the water and fluids run on

them with Abhishekam. That water is also a good conductor of electric field and

absorbs and holds the energy secondary to the colloidal osmotic pressure. When a

spoonful of this fluid is taken as a prasadam or teertham, that is divine

vibration that we are taking. That is why the teertham has healing properties.

Every time the idols are touched by the human beings who are not practicing the

Vedic "YAMA and NIYAMAS", with any clothes, the IDOLS are grounded or short

circuited. That is why, periodic abhishekams are done. The vedic life was a far

more advanced life with scientific knowledge. They had Aeroplane technology in

Rama times. What happened to that culture and it's height???

 

I hope this is informative and answers some of your questions!!!!

 

 

In Swamy's service

Meena Chintapalliarjun pharmaco <arjun_pharmaco > wrote:

[Guest guest]

good day.

doubts to you is common as your name it self indicates. never keep the doubts to

your heart. get them cleared immdtly.

bye the way, your doubt is not clear as what exactly you want people to answer.

however, to my little knowledge i feel that your doubt is that why should we

pray through a piece of material made by an another human being? is it right.

if so, my prayer to you is, what ever you do with or without / before or behind

an idol is not the manner. what ever you pray or which ever manner you perform

your rituals is not the matter. your heart should be filled with the Lotus Feet

of the Universe. you should request Him to appear before you in the manner you

want. start with that feelings. your feelings are the important factors rather

than the mantras you chant. your feelings makes you rich. so start the duty

with the warm feelings. to get the feelings, you must be pure and your mind

should have enough space to store the feelings.

although it is not the appropriate place to mention, the Mohammadian religion,

do not have the idol worship. one of the main objects is that people within

themselves will create different idols, hence no idol worship for them. of

late, in a common prayer hall you will see no idol.

one more thing. as you mentioned that the idol was creted / manufactured was

also a man. right. pl. imagine, when you are in a distress without any proper

address to reach a particular temple in a newly place and found a person who

could guide you to the particular temple in a nearest way don't you thank him?

of course, he is also a person alike you but he has shown you a route. hence,

all idols are made by our brother & sisteres but this is only a link between a

disciple and the Guru. who told you to pray before an idol is he/she not a

human being? so,

an idol is only an image of our feelings. imagine how our dreams come. they are

our suppressed inner feelings or our desires only.

have you not heard that the great sages who does / do penance in the woods never

keep any image or idol for their worship.

so, my request to you is that, never have any doubt who prepares, what material

is used, how it is made. there is an idol of your choice and pray the Lord

sincerely and honestly you will certainly realize Him. doubt and confusion are

the best friends never allow them to come closer. they will distract your

views.

hope, this will solve your problem.

with regds

dvs prasadarjun pharmaco <> wrote:

Dear brothers and sisters,.....

[Guest guest]

My thoughts on the subject are -

A shloka in SAI THANTHRA is

sarva roop dharan shantam

sarva nam dharan shivam

sachhidananda advaitam

satyam shivam sundaram

All forms and names are HIS. He is the non dual entity and is Truth, Bliss and Beauty.

Just as a child needs training wheels to balance him / herself while beginning

to learn to ride a bicycle,we need a form which helps us to focus and identify

with GOD.

As the intensity of SADHANA increases GOD - at the appropriate time -

communicates with SADHAKA to help him / her get to the next level. This is like

a booster attached to a spaceship for it to launch itself into the next orbit.

DO NOT DOUBT THIS.

My personal suggestion is - Please donot get confused with the statute and the

maker of it -, as these issues are irrelevant. Take this as stepping stones as

ultimately what matters is GOD, the OMNIPRESENT, OMNISCIENT AND OMNIPOTENT and

your personal relationship with HIM.

Regards / Jwalant

[Guest guest]

Dear Arjun, dear all

 

I do not remember when I read about this story but... once a young man

rescued a statue of Virgin Mary that was damaged and was going to be

destroyed. He made a marvellous job of putting it right again and started to

worship it.

One day, expressing his love, he said to the idol :

-Virgin Mary, I Love You so very much !

Some time later, the young man was received in interview by Swami and Swami

said to him

-I LOVE YOU SO VERY MUCH TOO !

Does this give you an answer ?

Om Sri Sai Ram, blessings to all.

Nelly

 

 

-

"arjun pharmaco" <arjun_pharmaco

Monday, August 08, 2005 8:41 PM

[saibabanews] Please solve my question

[Guest guest]

Sai

Ram Arjun

 

This

is what our beloved Swami says about the IDOL

worship during a conversation with a devotee.

 

color:blue;font-weight:bold">DEVOTEE: Swami, why should we perform puja to

idols?

color:blue;font-weight:bold">

color:purple;font-weight:bold">SWAMI: To enable the mind to concentrate upon

one thing. Sagunopasana is easier for the common man to reach God. External

form helps the mind from straying aimlessly. When worshipping the idol, you are

seeing your ishtadevata svarupa in the idol. It helps to instill the necessary

bhava. Your bhavana is turning the inanimate clay or stone into a living God.

Do you think of the impurities in the clay of which the idol is made? No, your

mind is on the form of deity only and not on the clay.

color:purple;font-weight:bold">

color:blue;font-weight:bold">

color:blue;font-weight:bold">Taken from “Sri Sathya Sai Anandadayi -

Journey with Sai by Karunamba Ramamurthy” (Chapter 26 - Inner view, not

Interview)

color:blue;font-weight:bold">

color:blue;font-weight:bold">

font-weight:bold">

[Guest guest]

God exists in your beleif not in the rules which people lay for you. If you

beleive that he is in Idol yes he is. If you beleive that he is in a stone he

is there even in that. You need not discuss this question with anyone. Your

heart replies. When you start praying an idol continuously for some time then

there develops a type of beleif towards it which only U can make out. If it

makes your mind and heart happy then what ever you are doing is correct. If you

are not deriving some sort of releif out of it find some other path. You should

keep observing your self.

For example let me say you are praying an idol which you like most and your

method of praying is giving you atmost happiness then the same may or may not

apply to me. You observe many methods of praying only some methods will give

some sort of happiness in you. Try to catch it and follow. Try to catch inner

meaning of a method then you will enjoy that worship more.

Remember one thing there is no particular universal formula or method of

praying. Everything is inside you. All these rules and methods are framed by

humans not by GOD.

Hope I answered you.

Saram.

[Guest guest]

Idols though man made have divine powers vested in them through many years of

worship.Just as we have a mother and father,brother and sister figure to

identify,so have we idols to identify as Rama and Krishna. The Gods must have

looked like they are in the statues and idols of today,for if they had no

similarity would Swami not have pointed that out? Hindus believe that there is

God in everything, a leaf, a blade of grass or a stone even a fellow human

being. But it is not practical for one to pluck a blade of grass and pray to

it. So our ancestors made idols so their successors would treet them as the

emblems of divinity and get blessed by offering prayers and food.So why not an

idol made by man? How blessed must have been the man who carved God himself?

 

Sairam

rajyalakshmi

[Guest guest]

Sai Ram

I have not experienced life without idol worship, and this is how I view it.

The pooja room is the most sacred room in a home. The deities bring us all to

one level. We all bend and do obseisance - the elders and the young.

Following rituals and doing regular pooja, the household members remind

themselves of their position with the attachment of duty in family and society.

It is a disciplinary anchor - a guide to live our karma and expend dharma.

Besides, it gives immense pleasure to clean and decorate the Altar. I know

families who passionately design gold ornaments studdded with jems and load it

all on the statue. The fervor is equal to the one exhumed at a street corner

especially in Madras or Bombay [ Chennai and Mumbay today ] , while you pass

through a crowded street, suddenly you notice a clean spot under a tree, a

pavement - you name it, with a statue that is lovingly taken care of with a

large dot of kumkum,adorned with a simple flower garland around the neck, and

an offering of a single flower at the feet. You don't know who has done it but

you know what his/her feelings were.

The idols are so symbolic - one where you can pour out unlimited love. I, for

one, cannot decide on a tall statue of Krishna, should it be the blue one or

the white? The small one, the crawling baby Krishna - and how about the metal

one? I enjoy them all at the temple shops - my heart is filled with Sai.

Sai Ram, Saraswathy

[Guest guest]

Sairam,

I would like to thank you for your replies. NOW i

could understood the importance of stauates and idol

worship.

sairam

 

pranams

 

arjun

[Guest guest]

Sai sister Saraswathy,

The all pervading God has both saguna and nirguna forms ie.manifested and

unmanifested.For the beginners in the realm of spirituality it is well nigh

impossible to conceive the formless God as without a form.So in the initial

stages of development as a spiritual aspirant the manifested form is a must.But

when one develops to higher realms of spirituality the form of God one worships

automatically gets vanished and the formless one starts working in the mind of

the aspirant.But the same requires lot of years and disciplined practice and

love,devotion,dedication of the form of God and thru meditation and and other

rituals the inner mind is cleaned of all dirts and the formless God shines.All

the Great people hv their own Ishta Devata in the initial stages and over years

of practice they see the same form everywhere in all beings and in all

deities.But it is always better to stick to one Deity instead of many deities

as then the mind gets distracted and concentration becomes

impossible.Of course the same is well said than done but only thru such

procedure one can jump from the manifested Deity to the unmanifested,formless

ONE.All sages of the yore did the same in their penances.But to begin with it

is simply impossible to concentrate on one Deity as we are trained im such a

way.If one goes to Siva temple he/she calls the names of Siva as prayer and

Vishnu temples that of the names of Vishnu though they both are the same.

Spiritualism is not a bed of roses and much dedication is required and

discipline is the key factor.In the present day world the same may or may not

be practicable for all and hence there is not much improvement in the

aspirants.If one loves SAI then take HIM as God and see him in all the

deities.You can hv any number of photos,idols but you hv to take only one as yr

Ishta Devata for the purpose of all types of avancement whether spiritual or

material.Afterall by praying to the ishta devata you send spiritual vibrations

within your mind and the same go to the God who is always residing in the sub

conscious mind.Only thing is we are ignorant of this.But by practice over years

the mind will get steady and will realise the fact.So your method is ok as we

are only beginners in this domain which is beyond our comprehensive powers.Of

course in cities like Madras and Bombay there are deities in every nook and

corner and even in platforms but the person who installs may hv great faith

in that idol and he can be considered to be a better devotee than the one who

adores the pooja room with all sorts of paraphernalia as God never bothers abt

outward things but peeps thru the inner mind of the devotee..Further one is a

devotee or not is not for him/her to judge but for God.One may think he/she is

a devotee but in the eyes of God no such thing will bethere and the reverse

form also has to be taken into account.Hence thereis no use of calling

ourselves I am a devotee of so and so and it for HIM to decide.If this is

clearly understood there is no confusion.

 

Sairam,

agramanSaraswathy Balakrishnan <Saraswathy53 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote:

Sai Ram

I have not experienced life without idol worship, and this is how I view it......

[Guest guest]

Sai Ram Brother Agraman,

Thank you indeed for your indepth input of the stages of spiritual growth. It

was refreshing to read your explanation which I endorse wholeheartedly.

Sai Ram Saraswathy>GANAPATHY RAMAN <agraman62 (AT) (DOT) co.in>

>[saibabanews] Re: Please solve my question>Wed, 10 Aug 2005

19:20:52 +0100 (BST)>> Sairam.> Sai sister Saraswathy,> The all pervading

God has both saguna and nirguna forms ie.manifested and unmanifested......