Swami explains - The Blitz Interview (September - 1976) with Late Karanjia - Part II

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Swami explains - The Blitz Interview (September - 1976) with Late Karanjia - Part II

Fri, 7 Jun 2002 20:20:11 +0530

Om Sri Sai Ram

The Way to Self-Realization

Q: In what way can life without desire make Gods of men?

Baba: Life without desire means the realization of the pure, genuine self that

is Atma. Bound to desire, the self degenerates into selfishness. Atma turns

into ego. The way of self-realization is to cleanse the self of this ego of

selfishness. Then you reach a state of consciousness beyond the mind or

intellect, revealing the true self that is God. The mind is like a cloth that

covers and stifles consciousness, the threads of which are desires. If we give

up the desires, the threads fall and the cloth disappears, revealing our true

nature. That is what the Vedanta (epic of ancient wisdom and knowledge) means

when it enjoins that one must get rid of the ego to realize oneself.

Q: You mean that the mind of man as such creates the block between man and God?

Baba: Yes. One must make a distinction between the mind that is the ego, and the

real self that is consciousness. The latter helps us to cross the frontiers of

the ego-mind and become aware of oneself as the witness of truth. Normally the

scientist of the mind looks outside to what can be perceived by the senses

existing in the world of the mind to ask: What is this? The scientist of

consciousness, on the other hand, always looks inside to that which is beyond

the senses or the grasp of the mind to ask: What is that?

One has, therefore, to rise beyond the mind to consciousness to achieve

self-realization. To gain the infinite, universal Atma, the embodied self must

break out of the puny, finite little prison of individuality. Desire belongs to

the senses, the brain, the mind; once you become free of it, you realize the

self, Atma, consciousness, enlightenment, and become one with the cosmic power.

Self-realization is God-realization. Thus man reaches God.

Q: What is the significance of the vibuthi (holy ash) and the trinkets that you

materialize and give to people? Is there any need for a Godman to demonstrate

such miracles, which any magician can conjure?

Baba: So far as I am concerned this is evidence of My divinity. It is not by any

means an exhibition of divinity. All performances of magic, as you know are done

for the sake of income. These are tricks of the magicians trade. They constitute

a kind of legalized cheating, the transfer of an object from one place to

another by a trick of the hand which goes unnoticed. They involve no siddhi

(occult power) or miraculous power.

What I do is quite a different act of creation. It is neither magic, nor is it

siddhi power either. For one thing, I seek no return. For another, I do not

cheat people by transferring objects, but I create them. Again, I do so not

because of any need or desire of exhibition of My powers. For Me this is a kind

of calling card to convince people of My love for them and secure their devotion

in return. Since love is formless, I do materialization as evidence of My love.

It is merely a symbol.

Still I do not understand why you should materialize rings, bracelets, watches

and those kind of trinkets.

Talisman of Protection

Baba: Most people desire talismans as symbolic of My protection. So I provide

them. When they are in trouble they feel the grip of the ring, bracelet or

watch to remember Me and call Me to their rescue so that I can help them. On

the other hand, if I give them something they cannot wear, they are likely to

store it and forget about it.

The main thing is that these trinkets or talismans, by whatever name you call

them, give people a sense of security and protection they need in times of

troubles or crises and create a symbolic link covering the long distances

between them and Myself. When the devotees need Me, these objects flash the

message as if by wireless and I instantly come to their rescue.

Q: I am sorry to be persistent, Swamiji, but isn't the gift of an Omega or HMT

watch an act of cheating the company or breach of its patent?

Baba: I assure you there is no such thing. It would be cheating the company or

breaching the patent if it were a case of transfer of the watch from one place

to the other. But I do not transfer; I totally create. Whatever I will

instantly materializes. I know of no company that has complained about any

breach of patent.

Significance of Vibuthi (Holy Ash)

Q: What about vibuthi materialized by you? We would like to know its relevance

because your critics are trying to discredit you by sending around magicians

who produce exact replicas of vibuthi.

Baba: What I materialize is a manifestation of divinity with a potent

significance as well as symbolism. It is symbolic of the cosmic, immortal and

infinite nature of all forms of God, Atma or the spirit -- that is, what is

left when everything worldly, transient and changeable has burnt away.

I have spoken to you of the imperative of a desireless life. After Shiva had

burnt the God of desire, Kama, into a heap of ashes, he adorned himself with

the ash to shine as the conqueror of desire. When Kama was destroyed, Prema

reigned as the Goddess of love. Such is the significance of ash.

In the first place, it is symbolic of the life-death cycle in which everything

ultimately reduces itself to ash. "For dust thou art, and unto dust shall thou

returnest." Ash or dust is the final condition of things. It cannot undergo any

further change. In the spiritual context, it constitutes a warning to the

receiver to give up desire, to burn all passions, attachments and temptations,

and makes one pure in thought, word and deed.

It is in order to press home this lesson that I materialize ash for those who

come to Me with love and devotion. Like the other materializations, it also

acts as a talisman, healing the sick and giving protection to those who need

it. It is the symbol of divinity, quite different from the magician's trickery

mentioned by you.

Miracles of Healing

Q: You are believed to have performed miraculous cures to the extent of

resurrecting the dead. There are cases where you reportedly saved people from

drowning and other accidents in distant places. Medical experts have attested

to remote controlled surgical operations performed by you. How do you manage

these?

Baba: By My own sankalpa -- that is, divine will and power. As an Avatar, this

power is intrinsic, inherent, total and natural to My will and decision. I need

no mantra (mystical formula), no sadhana (spiritual practice), no tantra (sacred

writings) and no yantra (pilgrimage) to perform the so-called miracles, which

are natural to My state. My powers are simply the expression or assertion of

the reality of goodness, which merges Me with everything, everywhere, at all

times and places. The miracles belong to the boundless power of God.

Now coming to the main points of your question, this healing phenomenon has a

dual aspect. I can cure, save, and even resurrect people provided they are in a

spiritually receptive condition. It is like the positive and negative currents

of electricity. My capacity to heal can be compared to the positive current.

Your devotion to Me is like the negative current. Once the two come together,

the devotion provides what is called the miracle of healing.

It is man's mind that is really responsible for his illness or health. He

himself is the cause or motivator of either. So when it comes to healing or

curing, the necessary faith has to be created within his mind for the purpose.

All I do is invest him with the confidence, will and power to cure himself. It

is My abounding love reciprocated by the intensity of the devotee's faith in Me

that produce the desired result.

Not Siddhis or Magical Tricks

Q: So these are not siddhic powers or magical tricks, as your critics suggest?

Baba: They are neither magical tricks nor siddhic (occult) powers, which can

come to everybody with the appropriate discipline and yoga exercises, but My

powers to protect, heal and save people and materialize objects originate in

God and can be used only by an Avatar. They are in no way designed, disciplined

or developed, but flow from cosmic power.

Q: Some say that you command invisible spirits, which can transfer objects from

one place to another on your orders.

Baba: There is no need for Me to command invisible spirits since My own divine

will materializes the objects. I am everything, everywhere, omniscient,

omnipotent and omnipresent; and so whatever I will, instantly happens. Like the

qualities of truth, love and peace, these are things that generate the Atmic

(godly) or cosmic forces behind the universe.

Q: Your followers at home as well as abroad claim positive evidence of the

presence of Baba in their innermost hearts. Some have written of you as their

in-dwelling God. What is the explanation of this phenomenon?

The In-Dwelling God

Baba: This is the grace begotten of My love for them reciprocated by their

devotion. After all, as I repeatedly say, we all belong to the same divine

principle. The godliness which is present in everybody in the form of a little

spark is present in Me as the full flame, and it is My mission to develop every

little spark of God in everyone to the fullness of the divine flame.

The first imperative of this development is that the receiver of the grace also

provides from his or her side the devotion necessary to the consummation. Those

who carry the presence of Baba in their hearts like an in-dwelling God belong to

these kinds of devotees. They come to Me, see Me and hear Me, experience My love

for them and receive it with devotion. Thus, they become part of Me and My

divinity.

To the doubting or confused ones, I give this illustration. Those who want to

secure pearls from the sea have to dive deep to fetch them. It doesn’t

help them to dabble among the shallow waves near the shore and say that the sea

has no pearls and all stories about them are false. Likewise, if a person wants

to secure the love and grace of this Avatar, he must also dive deep and get

submerged in Sai Baba. Then, only, will he become one with Me and carry Me in

his innermost heart.

Q: The critics of Swamiji ask why Sai Baba does not help people in distress by

bringing rains in times of drought or creating food where there is famine by

means of his sankalpa shakti (divine power, universal energy). Cannot an Avatar

help humanity to control the natural forces and prevent calamities like

earthquakes, floods, droughts, famine and epidemics?

Baba: This is precisely what I am doing by incarnating the in-dwelling God in

man to overcome such calamities. There are two ways in which an Avatar can help

people: an instant solution as against a long term one.

Any instant solution would go against the fundamental quality of nature itself

as well against the karmic law of cause and effect. Most people live in the

material world of their desires and egos, which is governed by this law. They

reap the fruits of their actions. This brings about their evolution or

devolution. If the Avatar intervenes to instantly solve their problems, it

would stop all action, development, even evolution. This solution can be ruled

out because it totally negates the natural laws.

The other and more effective alternative presents a long-term solution whereby

the Avatar leads the people themselves to a higher level of consciousness to

enable them to understand the truth of spiritual laws so that they may turn

towards righteousness and steadfastly work for better conditions. This will

relate them back to nature and the karmic law of causation. This would then

transcend the cycle of cause and effect in which today they are involved as

victims and thereby command and control the natural forces to be able to avert

the calamities you mention.

[To be contd.]

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