Impersonalism

[Guest guest]

achintya, "vrindavan2378" <govinda@g...> wrote:

> Group,

>

> Can you help me to identify Impersonalism?

> Meanings, teachings, mantras and examples.

>

> Is impersonalism good?

 

The list has been incredibly quiet lately. I am surprised no one has

responded to this.

 

Impersonalism refers to doctrines that hold the Supreme Absolute

Truth to be without personality, form, qualities. In other words,

impersonalists do not accept the idea that God is ultimately a

person.

 

Some examples of impersonalist doctrines include Buddhism and

Advaita. Many other Hindu groups and organizations are also

impersonalists whose ideas are loosely based on Advaita.

 

Vedic impersonalists, i.e. Advaitins, use the same scriptures which

Vaishnavas use, and so they might chant mantras which they

consider "impersonalist," but are not accepted as such by

Vaishnavas.

 

Bhagavad-GItA chapter 12, verses 1-5 make it clear that the

impersonalist approach, specifically the worship of the formless

Brahman, is more difficult than the worship of the Lord as the

Supreme Personality of Godhead. Impersonalism is thus a troublesome

doctrine in practice. Above and beyond this, it is ultimately a

doctrine that denies the possibility of bliss in the spiritual

realm, since impersonalists do not admit of any personal interaction

or relationship that can occur on the liberated platform.

 

I hope this helps.

 

yours,

 

- K

[Guest guest]

>

> Some examples of impersonalist doctrines include Buddhism and

> Advaita. Many other Hindu groups and organizations are also

> impersonalists whose ideas are loosely based on Advaita.

 

Impersonalists still believe there is a God?

 

If Buddhism is a kind of impersonalist doctrine,

why in general they claimed there is no God ( form or formless ) ?

But I have heard that some buddhist groups believe in God ??

 

I know some groups claimed we are God or

we can become God.

Are these groups classified to impersonalists too?

 

Impersonalists believe in formless God do not means they accept

the idea that we are God or we can become God ?

 

Merging with Brahman or God:

Is this stage come out from the material sky yet or not.

Same to ending the cycle of birth and death?

 

Just my impression, people doing sitting meditation

practice generally believe in formless God idea, not sure why?

They are eager to advance themselves to different level (?)

via long daily meditation.

 

Thanks for your help

[Guest guest]

achintya, "vrindavan2378" <govinda@g...> wrote:

> Group,

>

> Can you help me to identify Impersonalism?

 

There is one sure way I know to identify an impersonalist:

 

Ask him: "Do you believe in God?"

He's an impersonalist if he say something like: "Well… It's a complex

question… I believe in my own god, an inner god…" and of course, my

personal favorite: "I believe in 'something'."

 

That's how you identify an impersonalist.

 

Yours: Bhakta Omer

Omer

Israel

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 5 Jun 2002, vrindavan2378 wrote:

> > Some examples of impersonalist doctrines include Buddhism and

> > Advaita. Many other Hindu groups and organizations are also

> > impersonalists whose ideas are loosely based on Advaita.

>

> Impersonalists still believe there is a God?

 

Yes, sort of; sometimes they even use personal pronouns too. But

ultimately they usually feel that the impersonal aspect known as Brahman

is somehow higher than Krishna, and they interpret scripture accordingly.

 

 

 

> If Buddhism is a kind of impersonalist doctrine,

> why in general they claimed there is no God ( form or formless ) ?

> But I have heard that some buddhist groups believe in God ??

 

Even though Buddhism is technically atheistic, people still

worship Buddha much as Hindus worship their deities, and some even expect

to go to His "Western Pure Land." Popular Mahayana practice doesn't make

sense in this way, but popular practice hardly ever follows all the rules

in other religious traditions either.

 

 

 

> I know some groups claimed we are God or

> we can become God.

> Are these groups classified to impersonalists too?

 

Generally, yes. This is a common aspiration; in fact, it's what

we came to this world for.

 

 

 

> Impersonalists believe in formless God do not means they accept

> the idea that we are God or we can become God ?

 

It does help; after all, unless we first make God into something

abstract and vague, anyone claiming to be Krishna will quickly become very

unmfortable when asked to actually deliver. Krishna expands Himself into

16,000 forms in order to deal with so many devotees at once. Who else can

do this?

 

 

 

> Merging with Brahman or God:

> Is this stage come out from the material sky yet or not.

> Same to ending the cycle of birth and death?

 

In theory, yes; however, such impersonal liberation is by nature

only theoretical, since it is totally impracticeable. Those whose merely

think of themselves as Brahman (which is not an altogether incorrect idea)

have no scope for any further activity. So they usually get bored,

essentially, and fall down into material affairs again. So although it is

a liberated state, it is a voluntary suspension of natural activities most

people will tire of very soon. It may be nice to fly around in the vast sky,

which affords one a great sense of freedom, but would anybody want to do so

forever? We seek society, friendship, and love; only Krishna consciousness

supplies these even within liberation.

 

 

 

> Just my impression, people doing sitting meditation

> practice generally believe in formless God idea, not sure why?

> They are eager to advance themselves to different level (?)

> via long daily meditation.

 

I'm sure there as many different motivations as there are aromas

wafting through the air. One likely reason is that modern, urban, and in

general material life is so pungent and agitating--that such meditation is

the only means people can imagine to find some hint of the peace that is

actually natural to less harried souls. This peace is also available by

fixing one's mind on the name of Hari, but people who are sinful don't

usually like the surrender to His authority that it involves. This is

true of impersonalism in general.

 

I hope this is helpful. Hare Krsna!

 

MDd

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 6 Jun 2002, Jayendran Srinivasan wrote:

> "The impersonalist puts more stress on

> the word arupam. But this arupam is not impersonal. It indicates the

> transcendental form of eternity, bliss and knowledge as described in the

> Brahma-samhita quoted above. Other verses in the Svetasvatara Upanisad

> (3.8-9) substantiate this as follows: ..."

 

The rasa-lila of Muralidhara Krishna is as up-close and personal

as is possible for anyone to get. Yet, in the very gayatri-mantra by which

Gaudiya Vaisnavas worship Lord Krsna as Kamadeva (the worshipable Deity of

cupid himself), He is also worshipped by another name of cupid, Ananga

(the unembodied). In context, this could make no sense as a referent to

Lord Krsna unless the Lord's body was completely transcendental.

 

All conditioned souls--and even impersonalists--are inclined to

regard Krsna's form and activities just as they regard material things,

though that's offensive. Brahman realization helps us to recognize

Krsna's Supreme transcendence. Likewise, wherever else He is apparently

referred to as impersonal in Vedic scriptures, it is rather this transcendence

being emphasized; this aspect of His general spiritual nature has to be

realized first. Then His spiritual, ever liberated, incomparably beautiful

form of existence, cognizance, and ecstasy can be appreciated as He is--by

those whose devotion is pure.

 

MDd

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 6 Jun 2002, M. Tandy wrote:

> > Just my impression, people doing sitting meditation

> > practice generally believe in formless God idea, not sure why?

> > They are eager to advance themselves to different level (?)

> > via long daily meditation.

>

> I'm sure there as many different motivations as there are aromas

> wafting through the air. One likely reason is that modern, urban, and in

> general material life is so pungent and agitating--that such meditation is

> the only means people can imagine to find some hint of the peace that is

> actually natural to less harried souls. This peace is also available by

> fixing one's mind on the name of Hari, but people who are sinful don't

> usually like the surrender to His authority that it involves. This is

> true of impersonalism in general.

 

On the other hand, the Lord's rasa-lila is explained by Srila

Prabhupada as follows (Srimad-Bhagavatam, 3.9.25):

 

so 'sav adabhra-karuno bhagavan vivrddha-

prema-smitena nayanamburuham vijrmbhan |

utthaya visva-vijayaya ca no visadam

madhvya girapanayatat purusah puranah ||

 

"The Lord, who is supreme and is the oldest of all, is unlimitedly

merciful. I wish that He may smilingly bestow His benediction upon me by

opening His lotus eyes. He can uplift the entire cosmic creation and

remove our dejection by kindly speaking His directions."

 

Purport

 

"The Lord is ever increasingly merciful upon the fallen souls of this

material world. The whole cosmic manifestation is a chance for all to

improve themselves in devotional service to the Lord, and everyone is

meant for that purpose. The Lord expands Himself into many personalities

who are either self-expansions or separated expansions. The personalities

of the individual souls are His separated expansions, whereas the

self-expansions are the Lord Himself. The self-expansions are

predominators, and the separated expansions are predominated for

reciprocation of transcendental bliss with the supreme form of bliss and

knowledge. The liberated souls can join in this blissful reciprocation of

predominator and predominated without materially concocted ideas. The

typical example of such a transcendental exchange between the predominator

and the predominated is the Lord's rasa-lila with the gopis. The gopis are

predominated expansions of the internal potency, and therefore the Lord's

participation in the rasa-lila dance is never to be considered like the

mundane relationship of man and woman. It is, rather, the highest

perfectional stage of the exchange of feelings between the Lord and the

living entities. The Lord gives the fallen souls the chance for this

highest perfection of life. Lord Brahma is entrusted with the management

of the complete cosmic show, and therefore he prays that the Lord bestow

His blessings upon him so that he may execute its purpose."

 

This prayer, composed by the originator of our sampradaya, is

chanted by devotees when they wake the Deity in the temples.

[Guest guest]

achintya, "M. Tandy" <mpt@u...> wrote:

 

Brahman realization helps us to recognize

> Krsna's Supreme transcendence. Likewise, wherever else He is

apparently

> referred to as impersonal in Vedic scriptures, it is rather this

transcendence

> being emphasized; this aspect of His general spiritual nature has

 

This makes more sense when we are told that Upanishads and Vedaanta-

suutra are emphasizing the Lord's "impersonal" aspect. I think the

point that Srila Prabhupada is making is that these scriptures

emphasize His transcendental nature.

 

- K

[Guest guest]

Can you explain more on this?

"aromas wafting through the air"

 

My ex-wife stop chanting Hare Krishna mantra two years ago and

she is doing meditation of "inner light" and "inner sound" since then.

I think she might had experienced some nice things during her

meditation that she does not give up.

She have to chant an impersonal mantra (five names) in the mind

during meditation too.

 

Thanks

 

> > Just my impression, people doing sitting meditation

> > practice generally believe in formless God idea, not sure why?

> > They are eager to advance themselves to different level (?)

> > via long daily meditation.

>

> I'm sure there as many different motivations as there are

aromas

> wafting through the air. One likely reason is that modern, urban,

and in

> general material life is so pungent and agitating--that such

meditation is

> the only means people can imagine to find some hint of the peace

that is

> actually natural to less harried souls.

[Guest guest]

On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, vrindavan2378 wrote:

> Can you explain more on this?

> "aromas wafting through the air"

 

I was thinking of Gita 15.8, in which Krsna says:

 

"The living entity in the material world carries his different

conceptions of life from one body to another as the air carries aromas. Thus

he takes one kind of body and again quits it to take another."

 

We develop our material or spiritual desires depending on the mundane

or spiritual associations we embrace, and we take birth accordingly; Srila

Prabhupada elsewhere comments (purport to Bhagavata, 4.28.20): "If the

wind passes over a garden of roses, it will carry the aroma of roses, and

if it passes over a filthy place, it will carry the stench of obnoxious

things." The soul is like that. This is one reason why sadhusanga is so

highly valued (Bhagavatam, 5.5.2):

 

"One can attain the path of liberation from material bondage only

by rendering service to highly advanced spiritual personalities. These

personalities are impersonalists and devotees. Whether one wants to merge

into the Lord's existence or wants to associate with the Personality of

Godhead, one should render service to the mahatmas. For those who are not

interested in such activities, who associate with people fond of women and

sex, the path to hell is wide open. The mahatmas are equipoised. They do

not see any difference between one living entity and another. They are very

peaceful and are fully engaged in devotional service. They are devoid of

anger, and they work for the benefit of everyone. They do not behave in

any abominable way. Such people are known as mahatmas."

 

Human life is like a junction; it is the responsible birth, in that here

we generate karma, unlike the animals. We all invariably get exactly what

we ask for, according to the choices we've made, practically. Those who

mostly or exclusively associate with the saints get all perfection. Krsna

is always ready to facilitate such association for those who are thirsty.

 

MDd

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 6 Jun 2002, Jayendran Srinivasan wrote:

> Here's an excerpt from the purport of BG 7.7:

>

> "... These authorities leave no doubt that the Absolute Truth is the

> Supreme Person, the cause of all causes. The impersonalist, however,

> argues on the strength of the Vedic version given in the Svetasvatara

> Upanisad (3.10): tato yad uttarataram tad arupam anamayam/ ya etad vidur

> amrtas te bhavanti athetare duhkham evapiyanti. "In the material world

> Brahma, the primeval living entity within the universe, is understood to

> be the supreme amongst the demigods, human beings and lower animals. But

> beyond Brahma there is the Transcendence, who has no material form and

> is free from all material contaminations. Anyone who can know Him also

> becomes transcendental, but those who do not know Him suffer the

> miseries of the material world." The impersonalist puts more stress on

> the word arupam. But this arupam is not impersonal. It indicates the

> transcendental form of eternity, bliss and knowledge as described in the

> Brahma-samhita quoted above. Other verses in the Svetasvatara Upanisad

> (3.8-9) substantiate this as follows: ..."

 

This Svetasvatara reference (below) is often quoted:

 

"I know that Supreme Personality of Godhead who is transcendental

to all material conceptions of darkness. Only he who knows Him can

transcend the bonds of birth and death. There is no way for liberation

other than this knowledge of that Supreme Person."

 

"There is no truth superior to that Supreme Person, because He is

the supermost. He is smaller than the smallest, and He is greater than the

greatest. He is situated as a silent tree, and He illumines the

transcendental sky, and as a tree spreads its roots, He spreads His

extensive energies."

 

One little known medieval Braj poet from Puri, Madhavadasa

Jagannathi, wrote a long poem on the Lord's Ratha-yatra. In it he makes

a similar metaphor, praising Lord Krsna as a wishing tree (kalpa-vrksa).

So did Srila Bilvamangala Thakura.

 

MDd

[Guest guest]

Please accept my obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. I would like to

know the key points of Gaudiya Philosophy against Advaita. Also, I will very

much appreciate if someone can direct me to useful reading material in this

regard. I understand Jiva Goswami's tattva sandharba deals elaborately with

this subject. Any other sources?

in your service,

Aravind.Aravind MohanramPh.D Candidate,Department of Materials Science and

Engg.,Pennsylvania State University,University Park, PA 16801Ph:-

814-238-8613814-865-2401 (Off)

Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now

[Guest guest]

Hare Krsna prabhu,

 

I do not have the qualifiations nor the position to answer your question but

I do have a few references which I found in a course I followed a few years

ago:

 

Bhagavad Gita: 2.12-13; 12.1-17; 7.24; 14.26-27; 14.3

Isopanisad: verses 12 & 15

Srimad Bhagavatam: 10.2.32

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta: Madya lila 9.46-62; Adi lila 7

Brahma Samhita: 5.40

 

I hope you may find some relevant information in here.

 

at your sevice,

M.

 

 

 

 

 

>Aravind Mohanram <psuaravind

>achintya

>achintya

> Impersonalism

>Fri, 7 Feb 2003 10:37:31 -0800 (PST)

>

>

>Haribol all,

>

>Please accept my obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. I would like

>to know the key points of Gaudiya Philosophy against Advaita. Also, I will

>very much appreciate if someone can direct me to useful reading material in

>this regard. I understand Jiva Goswami's tattva sandharba deals elaborately

>with this subject. Any other sources?

>

>in your service,

>

>Aravind.

>

>

>Aravind Mohanram

>Ph.D Candidate,

>Department of Materials Science and Engg.,

>Pennsylvania State University,

>University Park, PA 16801

>Ph:- 814-238-8613

>814-865-2401 (Off)

>

>

>

>

> Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now

 

 

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