ashaucha and puja

[Guest guest]

Here's a question put to me that could be answered by devotees born in

traditional Hindu families.

 

During ashaucha periods visiting temples is forbidden, but presumably home

worship must continue, for people committed to accept only prasada cannot

fast for 12 days or so. What is the standard?

[Guest guest]

Dandawats!

I asked similar question once to my godbrother Pujyapad Vishnu

Maharaj, The following is his reply.

 

1. As per Vaishnav Dharama, devotion to Supreme Lord is eternal.

Here, Japa, Sandhya-Vandana, Arti, Bhog etc. are not any ordinary

rituals but they are forms of devotion to Supreme Lord. In Vaishnav

Shastras it is prescribed to continue performing devotion in all

circumstances and situations. One of our godbrothers in Ludhiana

asked Gurudeva that his father had died and that it was a tradition

in Punjab to not cook in the house for several days.

So, could he offer bhog to the Deities in his house? Gurumaharaj

replied that Vaishnavas do not eat anything without offering to

Supreme Lord. Then he asked that whether it meant that he can offer

bhog to the Deities and Gurumaharaj said yes. Then he asked about

sandhya-vandana etc. and Gurumaharaj also replied to that as yes.

Then he asked about arti etc. and Gurumaharaj also replied to that

as yes. But then Gurudeva said that as it was not as per the

traditions in his society, so he should do arti etc. slowly. So as

per these feelings of Gurudeva, we should go to the temple also.

 

Dasanudas

- Hari Prasad Das

P.S. here Guru Maharaj is used for Srila Bhakti Ballabha Tirtha

Goswami Maharaj (Sri Chaitanya Gaudiya Matha)

 

 

achintya, "Bhakti Vikasa Swami"

<Bhakti.Vikasa.Swami@p...> wrote:

> Here's a question put to me that could be answered by devotees born

in

> traditional Hindu families.

>

> During ashaucha periods visiting temples is forbidden, but

presumably home

> worship must continue, for people committed to accept only prasada

cannot

> fast for 12 days or so. What is the standard?

[Guest guest]

In my family, neither temple worship nor home Deity worship nor even

bhoga offering is performed during periods of uncleanliness following

the loss of a family member. Whether or not this is the correct

approach is unclear to me. Different customs may be present due to

regional differences as well as different levels of adherence to the

standard.

[Guest guest]

but if you have to eat.... how can you do it without offering bhoga to the

deities even in these days?

and, obviously sankirtana yajna it is not submitted to any regulations

 

harekrishna...... i am extremely interested in these GaudyaVaishnava & Hindu

subjects

 

Yasodanandana Dasa ... Italy

 

_______________

[Guest guest]

achintya, "Mario Leonelli" <marioefranca@h...>

wrote:

> but if you have to eat.... how can you do it without offering bhoga

to the

> deities even in these days?

> and, obviously sankirtana yajna it is not submitted to any

regulations

>

 

I am very interested to know the basis for your statement

that "sankirtana yajna is not submitted to any regulations."

[Guest guest]

haribol

 

one of the reasons of this is that SriCaitanyaMahaprabhu, Srila Prabhupada

and my initiating spiritual master permit (and recommend!!) to my humble

person to perform sankirtana.

If there would be hindu-brahminic rules to regolate sankirtana, i 'd be

automatically out of this, i am from italy (mleccha), son of meat eaters and

irreligious parents (varna shankara) and ex meat eater etc. ("sub sudra")

 

one other thing is that chanting of the mantra "hareKrishna Hare Krishna

Krishna Krishna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare" is given

everywhere in the streets of the world by devotees without caring of place,

time, circumstance, guna and karma, caste, sex , religion etc. of the

listeners... and everyone is invited to join... and this is recommended by

all the autorities

 

many responses of many acharyas are saying that is possible to chant also in

bathroom, hospital, cemetery and everywhere...

 

if any other devotee, more expert and more fluent in english will help me,

there are many evidences that sankirtana have not limitations........

 

yasodanandana dasa... italy

 

 

 

 

 

_______________

[Guest guest]

achintya, "Mario Leonelli" <marioefranca@h...>

wrote:

 

> one other thing is that chanting of the mantra "hareKrishna Hare

Krishna

> Krishna Krishna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare"

is given

> everywhere in the streets of the world by devotees without caring

of place,

> time, circumstance, guna and karma, caste, sex , religion etc. of

the

> listeners... and everyone is invited to join... and this is

recommended by

> all the autorities

>

> many responses of many acharyas are saying that is possible to

chant also in

> bathroom, hospital, cemetery and everywhere...

>

 

I agree that sankiirtana can be performed anywhere and by anyone;

there are no restrictions in this regard and shaastras state this

also.

 

However, you said that "sankirtana yajna it is not submitted to any

regulations" in the context of a discussion regarding what is the

proper procedure to observe for temple worship/offering bhoga during

ashaucha periods. The implication by your statement is that devotees

performing sankiirtana are not subject to such regulative principles.

I disagree with that.

 

The fact that sankiirtana yagna can be performed without restriction

is not the same thing as saying that devotees who perform sankiirtana

do not have to follow other regulative principles. As far as asaucha

is concerned, this is a tradition that is presumably based on dharma

shaastras, and I do not see why it is any less relevant to devotees.

After all, Vedas, dharma shaastras, etc are ultimately for

Vaishnavas, or at least for those Vaishnavas who are not yet on the

absolute platform.

 

Lord Krishna states in Bhagavad-giitaa that:

 

yaH shaastra-vidhim utsR^ijya vartate kaama-kaarataH |

na sa siddhim avaapnoti na sukha.m na paraa.m gatim || giitaa 16.23 ||

 

He who discards scriptural injunctions and acts according to his own

whims attains neither perfection, nor happiness, nor the supreme

destination. (bhagavad-giitaa 16.23)

 

tasmaach chhaastra.m pramaaNa.m te kaaryaakaarya-vyavasthitau |

j~naatvaa shaastra-vidhaanokta.m karma kartum ihaarhasi || giitaa

16.24 ||

 

One should therefore understand what is duty and what is not duty by

the regulations of scriptures. Knowing such rules and regulations,

one should act so that he may gradually be elevated. (bhagavad-giitaa

16.24)

 

Therefore, there is no question of ignoring scriptural regulations.

Only the *surrendered* devotee is above such regulations: "sarva

dharmaan parityajya maam ekam sharaNam vrajaa..." Just because one is

practicing saadhana bhakti or sankiirtana yagna, it does not follow

that he is already surrendered and can thus transcend regulative

principles.

 

Of course, this still begs the question of, what is the scriptural

position on asaucha as it pertains to offering food stuffs and temple

worship?

 

regards,

 

- Krishna

[Guest guest]

achintya, "Mario Leonelli" <marioefranca@h...>

wrote:

> but if you have to eat.... how can you do it without offering bhoga

to the

> deities even in these days?

 

Usually in such a situation, there is very little eating anyway.

After the passing of a family member, traditionally the remaining

family members are considered unclean (and therefore unfit to worship

or offer bhoga). Either they will prepare foodstuffs and eat without

offering, or they will accept prepared foodstuffs by others (which

are presumably offered).

[Guest guest]

ok.... hare krishna.... i accept this

 

but instead of eating bhoga is better to break a hindu rule (please accept

it without offense to the indian tradition!!) and offer food to the deities

 

i repeat that if i wait for "brahminic cleanliness" in my normal life, most

of the days i'd end fasting

 

very often i silently offer and eat in my parents house while, at the same

table, they are eating meat... and also i do the same thing when i travel

for my job

 

this for prasadam

 

now

 

the sankirtana is not only permitted in any moment and circumstance... it is

also necessary (eva kevalam)

 

 

hare krishna

 

i enjoy so much to speak with all of you

 

yasoda nandana dasa ... italy

 

_______________

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[Guest guest]

you have said very nice things.... but when i am saying about no rules and

regulation i am clearly speaking only of sankirtana and not other yajnas,

ceremonies and regulative principles.... what i am saying is that in every

condition it is possible to offer bhoga to krishna and chant harekrishna

 

........ but... thanks

 

 

hari bol

 

_______________

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[Guest guest]

achintya, "Mario Leonelli" <marioefranca@h...>

wrote:

> you have said very nice things.... but when i am saying about no

rules and

> regulation i am clearly speaking only of sankirtana and not other

yajnas,

> ceremonies and regulative principles.... what i am saying is that

in every

> condition it is possible to offer bhoga to krishna and chant

harekrishna

>

 

Offering of bhoga should be done according to regulative principles.

This requires at the very minimum, a certain cleanliness on the part

of the person doing the offering. Some examples of situations where

one is unclean are: a women during her menstrual period, one who has

just passed stool or urine, one who has seen or touched a dead body,

and one who has recently lost a family member. There are many more

examples. In all such situations, temple worship and puja are

forbidden until the uncleanliness has passed. This is Vedic culture.

It is also stated in _Nectar of Devotion_, Chapter Eight

entitled "Offenses to be Avoided:"

 

"One should not enter the temple in a contaminated state. (According

to Vedic scripture, if someone dies in the family the whole family

becomes contaminated for some time, according to its status. For

example, if the family is braahmaNa their contamination period is

twelve days, for the kShatriyas and vaishyas it is fifteen days, and

for shuudras thirty days.)" (page 69 in my edition)

 

There is another statement attributed to the Varaaha Puraana in the

same chapter:

 

"One should not fail to strictly follow the rules and regulations in

worshiping the Deity." (page 70)

 

As I mentioned previously, devotees are required to follow Vedic

regulative principles. I have already quoted BG chapter 16 to this

effect. Who else are those regulative principles for? Vedas are

ultimately meant for developing Krishna-consciousness.

 

Saying that sankiirtana can be performed without any restrictions is

*not* the same thing as saying that devotees can forego other

regulative principles.

 

Compromises with regulative principles can only be authorized by a

proper guru. Even then, usually such compromises are temporary. I

accept for the moment that while introducing Vedic culture to the

West, it is necessary to make many compromises to draw foreigners in;

one cannot teach all or even most regulative principles from the very

beginning. But we cannot speak of the greatness of Vedic culture and

Vedic literature when we continue to wantonly abandon regulative

principles on the plea that we perform sankiirtana yagna and hence

are transcendental to them. By that logic, why not ignore other

regulative principles as well?

 

As I have mentioned before (and quoted shaastra to that effect), the

surrendered devotee is eligible to give up external dharmas. Have you

any evidence that a conditioned soul practicing saadhana-bhakti can

do the same? If not, you should not claim that he can.

 

We need to find out what the scriptural position is on ashaucha and

offering bhoga rather than assuming that we know. Because while it is

clear one should not offer bhoga when one is unclean, it is equally

clear that eating unoffered foodstuffs is sinful (see BG 3.13, also

Nectar of Devotion Chapter 8 pg 69-70). Hence, these are

contradictory positions, and they require unambiguous authority to

resolve them.

 

regards,

 

- K

[Guest guest]

achintya, "krishna_susarla"

<krishna_susarla@h...> wrote:

 

> We need to find out what the scriptural position is on ashaucha and

> offering bhoga rather than assuming that we know. Because while it

is

> clear one should not offer bhoga when one is unclean, it is equally

> clear that eating unoffered foodstuffs is sinful (see BG 3.13, also

> Nectar of Devotion Chapter 8 pg 69-70). Hence, these are

> contradictory positions, and they require unambiguous authority to

> resolve them.

>

 

I don't usually respond to my own messages, but I found something

interesting in Manusmriti which might answer the above question:

 

na raa~namadhyadooSho'sti bratinaa.m na cha satriNaam |

aindra.m sthaanamupaasiinaa brahmabhuutaa hi te sadaa || 93 ||

 

Kings, Brahmachaarins, and celebrators of Vedic sacrifices are never

affected by death or birth-uncleanness, in as much as the kings are

the representatives of Indra (on Earth) and the two last named are

those of Brahmaa. (manusmR^iti 5.93)

 

Sankiirtana yagna is a Vedic yagna. Even if it were not, the

Bhaagavatam 11th Canto states that is equal to so many Vedic yagnas.

 

kR^iShNavarNa.m tviShaakR^iShNa.m saan^gopaan^gaastrapaarShadam |

yaj~naiH sa.nkiirtanapraayairyajanti hi sumedhasaH || bhaa 11.5.32 ||

 

kR^iShNa-varNam - repeating the syllables kR^iSh-Na; tviShaa - with a

luster; akR^iShNam - not black (golden); sa-an^ga - along with

associates; upa-a.nga - servitors; astra - weapons; paarShadam -

confidential companions; yaj~naiH - by sacrifice; sa.nkiirtana-

praayaiH - consisting chiefly of congregational chanting; yajanti -

they worship; hi - certainly; su-medhasaH - intelligent persons.

 

In the age of Kali, intelligent persons perform congregational

chanting to worship the incarnation of Godhead who constantly sings

the names of Krishna. Although His complexion is not blackish, He is

Krishna Himself. He is accompanied by His associates, servants,

weapons and confidential companions (bhaagavata puraaNa 11.5.32).

 

So, one could argue based on the above evidences that those who

actively participate in the sankiirtana yagna are not affected by

death uncleanliness. However, we have to be true to the spirit of the

scripture. I don't think this refers to the devotee who casually does

book distribution and harinaama once a week. I suspect this refers to

someone who is actively doing sankiirtana on a regular basis, like

the travelling bus parties of the seventies or the devotees who

preach in Europe.

 

Any thoughts on this?

 

yours,

 

- K