Guest guest Posted April 7, 2003 Report Share Posted April 7, 2003 The latest in the ever expanding repertoire of ISKCON speculative chants is "susvagatam jagannatha", "susvagatam baladeva", "susvagatam radha" etc. Following in the tradition of such popular favorites as "jaya jaya radha ramana haribol" this is adapted from a popular Hindi bhajan cassette. "Susvagatam" (welcome) is offered to a guest when he enters a person's home. But Jagannatha is the Lord of the Universe -- it belongs to Him, not us. We should be fortunate if He welcomes us to His spiritual abode. This chant is thus particularly inappropriate when sung in the Lord's temple. It is like going to someone's house and on arriving there greeting him with "Welcome!" Such an utterance could be taken as an illegal attempt to falsely establish one's own proprietorship. It could be stated that in bhaava-seva a devotee may welcome the Lord, but this chant is adapted from a commercial cassette, not from the bhaava-seva of genuine acaryas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2003 Report Share Posted April 8, 2003 Hare Krishna, AGTSP, AG2SG&G, PAMHO, I do not know the origin of the "bhajan", but it is also conceivable that the "hindi bhajan" was itself adopted from a previous acaryas song? Could "susvagatam" actually be referring to the welcoming Lord Jagannath into one's life. Devotees gradually understand that everything belongs to the Lord anyway, but, materially conditioned people have to start somewhere since they still think that they are the proprietors of something. Also, when we talk about "greeting the deities" in the morning it is we who are presenting ourselves to the deities hoping that the Lord will greet us - is this not so? There have been many previous acaryas all across India, but in ISKCON I only hear of mostly Bengali, some South India acaryas, and some Vraj acaryas, what about the acaryas in the rest of India? I do not know all the details of the people i am about to introduce, but, what about, Jalaram Bapa, Narsi Mehta these were Gujarati saints/acaryas who are revered very much, but I don't hear their songs amongs the ISKCON translations?. A lot of bhajans are translations from other districts of India and the source long forgotten maybe? Please forgive any offense I may be committing, I am not challenging, but just asking a question. achintya, "Bhakti Vikasa Swami" <Bhakti.Vikasa.Swami@p...> wrote: > The latest in the ever expanding repertoire of ISKCON speculative chants is > "susvagatam jagannatha", "susvagatam baladeva", "susvagatam radha" etc. > > Following in the tradition of such popular favorites as "jaya jaya radha > ramana haribol" this is adapted from a popular Hindi bhajan cassette. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2003 Report Share Posted April 8, 2003 Hare Krishna, AGTSP, AG2SG&G, PAMHO I forgot to mention the most important thing. If it is indeed proven that these "other bhajans" are from a unauthorised acharyas or non-geniune sources and are indeed just emotional, cinematic, impersonalistic etc. then, the matter may need to be addressed at GBC level and all temples should be made aware of this. For example I have heard the bhajan "jaya jaya radha ramana haribol...., radha madhava haribol..." in an ISKCON temple by, I believe, an ISKCON devotee (quite well known - his CD's available in Temples). There should be someone reviewing the bhajans to be allowed within ISKCON. I have, privately heard, from a senior devotee at a sankirtan gathering, saying that he was very displeased with that particular gathering because some of the bhajans were not from authorised acharyas. I must admit I am no authority and I do succumb to bhajans which may sound nice and mention Krishna/Radha or Sita/Rama, but, if there was a "suspect" list available to devotees, with clear explanation as to why it is rejected then everyone would benefit. More recently I have tried to restrict my consumption of so-called bhajans by "Bollywood" and other singers, but that is purely out of fear rather than understanding why something is not geniune. Some time ago I read somewhere that Mira's songs were not geniune and that she was possibly "sahajiya", but not without a good explanation as to why this statement was being made. From some sources I read it seems to be that Mira met with one of the six Goswami's? I don't know what the outcome of that meeting was, but, Vaiyasaki Prabhu sings some of Mira's songs and some of them are in the "Songs of the Vaisnava Acaryas" published within ISKCON. Maybe someone here can enlighten me (and maybe others like myself) of some well known "so-called" bhajans and why they are not approved? Haribol Mahendra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2003 Report Share Posted April 8, 2003 On Tue, 8 Apr 2003, mcthaker wrote: > Devotees gradually understand that everything belongs to the Lord > anyway, but, materially conditioned people have to start somewhere > since they still think that they are the proprietors of something. > > Also, when we talk about "greeting the deities" in the morning it is > we who are presenting ourselves to the deities hoping that the Lord > will greet us - is this not so? The problem with so many things that seem to be rasabhasa (or factually are rasabhasa) is that determining that usually depends on how we interpret the statements in question. Here is the best example I know of a poem that appears to be rasabhasa, and yet Srila Rupa Gosvami saw fit to include it in his Padyavali anthology (136): "The infant Krsna whimpering sweetly--forehead to forehead, eyes to eyes, neck to neck, and lips to lips with a gopi--carefully pressed Himself against her breasts for some time, and smiled as His hairs stood on end. May He whose form was hardly nmature enough for erotic sentiments protect you." Needless to say, it is problematic to try interpreting something like this by mundane reasoning; one has to depend on the immediate spiritual vision of perfect acaryas. Otherwise, there is every chance of us committing offenses, especially since pure Vaisnavas and transcedental poets often purposely delight in juxtapositioning such glaring ironies of Krsna's simultaneous human appearance and Divine identity, in just such ways. > There have been many previous acaryas all across India, but in ISKCON > I only hear of mostly Bengali, some South India acaryas, and some > Vraj acaryas, what about the acaryas in the rest of India? I do not > know all the details of the people i am about to introduce, but, what > about, Jalaram Bapa, Narsi Mehta these were Gujarati saints/acaryas > who are revered very much, but I don't hear their songs amongs the > ISKCON translations?. A lot of bhajans are translations from other > districts of India and the source long forgotten maybe? Notwithstanding the above, we do know that rasabhasa is rampant even among those popularly celebrated as Vaisnava poets. The best path is to simply focus on the writings we know to be perfectly self-realized devotees, or those whom our acaryas themselves glorify. In a Caitanya-caritamrta for which I don't have a reference handy at the moment, Srila Prabhupada recommends that one sing only those songs written by pure Vaisnavas who are fixed in the standard behavior and who chant the Hare Krsna mahamantra. The safest thing seems to be to simply sing those songs that Srila Prabhupada himself sang. MDd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2003 Report Share Posted April 9, 2003 Hare Krishna, AGTSP, AG2SG&G PAMHO > > Notwithstanding the above, we do know that rasabhasa is rampant even among those popularly celebrated as Vaisnava poets. The best path is to simply focus on the writings we know to be perfectly self- realized devotees, or those whom our acaryas themselves glorify. In a Caitanya-caritamrta for which I don't have a reference handy at the moment, Srila Prabhupada recommends that one sing only those songs written by pure Vaisnavas who are fixed in the standard behavior and who chant the Hare Krsna mahamantra. The safest thing seems to be to simply sing those songs that Srila Prabhupada himself sang. > > MDd Should there be any effort to research other Acaryas' writings? And if not, then could we be in danger of following the same path as Christianity, Judaism and Islam where everything except their own is rejected outright and everyone else is persecuted? Haribol Mahendra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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