Books for the non-intellectuals?

[Guest guest]

I am not sure I understand this: Books like Bhagavad Gita,

Bhagavatam-essence of Vedanta and the natural commentary on Vedanta,

Chaitanya Caritamrta - postgraduate study of the scriptures and Nectar of

Devation - termed as books for the non-intellectuals and for the women and

the sudras. Admittedly we do not directly read the 4 Vedas, Upanishads etc

but that does not mean these books are for the fallen. Why would Mahaprabhu

and the other acaryas hold Srimad Bhagavatam in such high esteem when "it is

clear that these books were especially

>compiled for those who lack brahminical qualification - i.e. women,

>shuudras, brahma-bandhus, etc. >

 

I think in your rush to convincely argue with the opposition on the basis of

the srutis, you should not put down books that you yourself have admitted

that Prabhupada took so much pains to translate and comment.

 

Raghuram

 

 

 

>Today, the requirements in Srila

>Prabhupada's line are that the brahmin devotees should know four

>books - Bhagavad Gita, Shriimad Bhaagavatam, Shrii Chaitanya

>Charitamrita, and Nectar of Devotion. Although this is truly the

>essence of the whole Veda, from the standpoint of volume it

>represents less than a hundredth of one percent of the total Veda.

>Not only that, but it is clear that these books were especially

>compiled for those who lack brahminical qualification - i.e. women,

>shuudras, brahma-bandhus, etc. >

>How is it "intellectual" to know books which were compiled for the

>benefit of the non-intellectual classes?

 

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[Guest guest]

achintya, "John Deere" <jndeere1170@h...>

wrote:

>

>

> I am not sure I understand this: Books like Bhagavad Gita,

> Bhagavatam-essence of Vedanta and the natural commentary on

Vedanta,

> Chaitanya Caritamrta - postgraduate study of the scriptures and

Nectar of

> Devation - termed as books for the non-intellectuals and for the

women and

> the sudras.

 

This is based on the following pramaanas.

 

First of all, in Bhagavad-giitaa Krishna Himself states that

 

maa.m hi paarthavyapashritya ye'pi syuH paapayonayaH |

striyo vaishyaastathaa shuudraaste'pi yaanti paraa.m gatim || giitaa

9.32 ||

 

O son of Prithaa, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of

lower birth - women, vaishyas [merchants] and shuudras [workers] -

can attain the supreme destination. (bhagavad-giitaa 9.32)

 

Which is why, of course, he is speaking a great thing like Bhagavad-

giitaa. Furthermore, in the Bhaagavatam we find the following:

 

striishuudradvijabandhuunaa.m trayii na shrutigocharaa |

karmashreyasi muuDhaanaa.m shreya eva.m bhavediha |

iti bhaaratamaakhyaana.m kR^ipayaa muninaa kR^itam || bhaa 1.4.25 ||

 

Out of compassion, the great sage thought it wise that this would

enable men to achieve the ultimate goal of life. Thus he compiled the

great historical narration called the Mahaabhaarata for women,

laborers and friends of the twice-born. (bhaagavata puraaNa 1.4.25)

 

Furthermore, we are informed that in Kali Yuga, all who have lost

their way (as opposed to just brahmins) will benefit from the reading

of Shriimad Bhaagavatam:

 

kR^iShNe svadhaamopagate dharmaj~naanaadibhiH saha |

kalau naShTadR^ishaameSha puraaNaarko'dhunoditaH || bhaa 1.3.43 ||

 

This Bhaagavata PuraaNa is as brilliant as the sun, and it has arisen

just after the departure of Lord Krishna to His own abode,

accompanied by religion, knowledge, etc. Persons who have lost their

vision due to the dense darkness of ignorance in the age of Kali

shall get light from this PuraaNa. (bhaagavata puraaNa 1.3.43)

 

It is generally well accepted among Vaishnavas that the Puraanas and

Itihaasas were compiled in such a way as to make the Vedic truths

easier to understand by the less intelligent class of men. For

example, the style of Sanskrit in the Puraanas is different from

those of the shrutis, and the teachings are given in the form of

historical narratives or stories which are easier to assimilate.

Srila Prabhupada alludes to this as well in his purport to SB 1.4.25.

 

Hence, it is clear that the Puraanas/Itihaasas were meant to be

studied by those who lack the qualification to study the shrutis.

This does not mean, however, that they are *only* to be studied by

the less qualified. I have certainly never stated this, and if you

read that into my writings, then you are mistaken.

 

Admittedly we do not directly read the 4 Vedas, Upanishads etc

> but that does not mean these books are for the fallen. Why would

Mahaprabhu

> and the other acaryas hold Srimad Bhagavatam in such high esteem

when "it is

> clear that these books were especially

> >compiled for those who lack brahminical qualification - i.e. women,

> >shuudras, brahma-bandhus, etc. >

 

Because Shriimad Bhaagavatam deals with the very essence of the Vedas:

 

katha.m vaa paaNDaveyasya raajarShermuninaa saha |

sa.mvaadaH samabhuuttaata yatraiShaa saatvatii shrutiH || bhaa 1.4.7

||

 

How did it so happen that King Pariikshit met this great sage, making

it possible for this great transcendental essence of the Vedas

[bhaagavatam] to be sung to him? (bhaagavata puraaNa 1.4.7)

 

It furthermore dispenses with external dharmas and cuts to the chase

of pure devotional service, as we are informed in SB 1.1.2.

 

The very fact that it was written in such a way as to be

understandable by those who lack Vedic qualificiation does not in any

way diminish its greatness. Have you ever read _Teachings of Lord

Chaitanya_? Therein, it is explained that Lord Chaitanya gave

multiple explanations of the famous aatmaraama verse, interpreting

aatmaraama in one sense to mean "enjoyers of the self," and in

another sense to mean "enjoyers of the body." In other words, both

transcendentalists who are already on the Brahman platform and

materialists who are on the bodily platform enjoy the Bhaagavatam,

because it liberates both classes of souls.

 

> I think in your rush to convincely argue with the opposition on the

basis of

> the srutis,

 

My arguments are actually based on the Bhaagavatam (see above).

 

you should not put down books that you yourself have admitted

> that Prabhupada took so much pains to translate and comment.

>

 

You really should read what I wrote more carefully, and with

attention to context. What I specifically stated is that the above

mentioned books are compiled for the benefit of unqualified classes

(i.e. laborers, women, etc) as opposed to the intellectual elite (as

the shrutis are). Therefore, everyone should read them.

 

This is not putting them down. Why would I put down books which I

cherish above all others? Especially books which are at the very

heart of the Gaudiiya philosophical tradition? That makes no sense.

 

The point, again, is simply that one should not excuse himself from

reading books like Shriimad Bhaagavatam because of claims that he is

not "intellectual." Nowhere is it stated that Srila Prabhupada's four

books are for brahmins only.

 

Hence, I very appropriately asked:

 

> >How is it "intellectual" to know books which were compiled for the

> >benefit of the non-intellectual classes?

 

The answer of course, is that it is a duty for all Vaishnavas, and

especially the brahmins, in Srila Prabhupada's line to very

thoroughly know the above books.

 

regards,

 

K

[Guest guest]

I understand the essence of your points: One should not put down the

Puranas and say they will read only the srutis. And one should

(especially Srila Prabhupada's followers)certainly read these 4 books.

 

And it is well known that the Puranas and Itihasas explain difficult

concepts in an easy manner. All said and done, I still have

difficulty admitting that these books are primarily meant for the

less-intellectuals. I can quote many things from Prabhupada's books

to the contrary. I will give one here: (SB 1.1.2).

 

"In the Vedas, the above-mentioned four activities are prescribed in

the regulative way so that there will not be any undue competition

for sense gratification. But Srimad-Bhagavatam is transcendental to

all these sense gratificatory activities. It is purely transcendental

literature which can be understood only by the pure devotees of the

Lord who are transcendental to competitive sense gratification".

 

Prabhupada clearly says Bhagavatam can be understood ONLY by pure

devotees. This is hardly the case with the less-advanced or less-

intellectuals or whatever. And of course Prabhupada had always

emphasised that CC is the post graduate study in scriptures.

 

But will the 'Outsiders' admit these? Most probably not. And I am

sorry I did think that you were saying that these literatures were

only for the less-advanced. You never said that. Yes they are for

everyone. But my point of contention is the emphasis: I say these

literatures are for the advanced souls, according to Srila

Prabhupada. But you say these are primarily for the less-intelligent.

 

I would like to see what Mukunda Datta Prabhu, Bhakti Vikasa Maharaja

and other such advanced devotees have to say on this.

 

Thanks

Raghuram

[Guest guest]

achintya, "raghu_sury" <jndeere1170@h...>

wrote:

 

All said and done, I still have

> difficulty admitting that these books are primarily meant for the

> less-intellectuals. I can quote many things from Prabhupada's books

> to the contrary. I will give one here: (SB 1.1.2).

 

[snip]

 

> Prabhupada clearly says Bhagavatam can be understood ONLY by pure

> devotees. This is hardly the case with the less-advanced or less-

> intellectuals or whatever. And of course Prabhupada had always

> emphasised that CC is the post graduate study in scriptures.

>

> But will the 'Outsiders' admit these? Most probably not. And I am

> sorry I did think that you were saying that these literatures were

> only for the less-advanced. You never said that. Yes they are for

> everyone. But my point of contention is the emphasis: I say these

> literatures are for the advanced souls, according to Srila

> Prabhupada. But you say these are primarily for the less-

intelligent.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that they are approachable by those

who are not intellectuals, and they were designed specifically to be

that way. Even intellectuals can and must study them. That is why

the "aatmaraama" verse from the Bhaagavatam can be interpreted to

refer to very different kinds of people, and still be valid.

 

The nonintellectuals can appreciate many stories from the

Bhaagavatam. The intellectual devotees appreciate them even more, due

to greater realization. I am not saying that these books are

*primarily* for non-intellectuals, because the Bhaagavatam clearly

says that it is meant for everybody. My point all along has simply

been that one should not feel that the Bhaagavatam and other

literatures published by Srila Prabhupada are beyond his reach on the

plea that he is not "intellectual." There is no requirement to be an

initiated brahmin to study the Bhaagavatam, Chaitanya-charitamrita,

etc. But it also stands to reason that those who are more advanced

will get more out of them - which is why we can refer to them as the

postgraduate study on Vedaanta and still allow unqualified people to

read them.

 

yours,

 

- K