susvagatam jagannatha

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 9 Apr 2003, mcthaker wrote:

> > Notwithstanding the above, we do know that rasabhasa is rampant

> even among those popularly celebrated as Vaisnava poets. The best

> path is to simply focus on the writings we know to be perfectly self-

> realized devotees, or those whom our acaryas themselves glorify. In

> a Caitanya-caritamrta for which I don't have a reference handy at the

> moment, Srila Prabhupada recommends that one sing only those songs

> written by pure Vaisnavas who are fixed in the standard behavior and

> who chant the Hare Krsna mahamantra. The safest thing seems to be to

> simply sing those songs that Srila Prabhupada himself sang.

> >

> Should there be any effort to research other Acaryas' writings?

 

I definitely think so; Srila Prabhupada seems to postulate this throughout his

books.

 

 

 

> if not, then could we be in danger of following the same path as

> Christianity, Judaism and Islam where everything except their own is

> rejected outright and everyone else is persecuted?

 

Usually, that danger is actually effected by other factors, but I agree that we

shouldn't act like sectarian fanatics with Vaisnava literature--or about

Vaisnavism in general, for that matter. Nonetheless, we're not necessarily

talking about other acaryas' writing here anyway, at least as far as medieval

pada-kartas are concerned. Many of these poets (e.g., Mirabai) just seem more

like transsectarian independents. In some cases, they certainly also edge

closer to the "utpadaiva kalpate" category of pseudo-spiritualists Srila Rupa

Gosvami saw as worthy of neglect. That's a reality that will impact the

spiritual practices of those who favor their songs, and it would be reckless to

ignore this consideration. So certainly someone should study these poets

carefully, even if it isn't necessary for everyone to do so. Again, though, to

really do them (or any other accomplished poet) justice, one would have to be

well-versed with Vaisnava siddhanta as well as the literary stand!

ards and norms by which such kavya should be judged. That's not so easy as it

might seem at first. I gather this is why our own acaryas took the time and

trouble (in an age when everything was hand-written) to write books even on

grammar, what to speak of alankara.

 

MDd

[Guest guest]

> In Pancararta Pradipa there is a mantra that we should say to welcome the

> Deities before Their bathing. It is "svagatam su-svagatam". Is it also

> incorrect? What mantra should we say than?

 

This is stated when bringing the Deity from His altar to the place where He

will be worshiped. It is thus an expression of feeling (bhaava) stipulated

by acharyas for a specific situation. It nevertheless remains unsuitable to

state "welcome" when going to visit the Lord in His temple. Furthermore

there is no direction from our acharyas, and certainly not from Srila

Prabhupada, to chant this in kirtana.

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna

AGTSP, AG2SG&G

PAMHO

 

achintya, mpt@u... wrote:

>

So certainly

someone should study these poets carefully, even if it isn't

necessary for everyone to do so. Again, though, to really do them

(or any other accomplished poet) justice, one would have to be well-

versed with Vaisnava siddhanta as well as the literary stand!

> ards and norms by which such kavya should be judged. That's not

so easy as it might seem at first. I gather this is why our own

acaryas took the time and trouble (in an age when everything was hand-

written) to write books even on grammar, what to speak of alankara.

>

> MDd

 

Therefore, going back to my previous point, there needs to be body

within ISKCON which can research and advise on the suitability or

otherwise of other acaryas writings/bhajans etc. I don't mean in a

heavy handed way which simply says "No don't listen to this or don't

read that" but which advises why they don't think it is suitable. Not

everyone can immediately appreciate why certain things are advised by

acaryas and a lot would still think that from their viewpoint and

background so..and..so are highly regarded, have good external

sadhana therefore they must be genuine and worthy of consideration.

 

I think we have to be exclusive to a certain degree but there should

be a lot more information and education as to why certain things

should be prohibited/restricted. There should also be a lot of

research into other sampradayas/acaryas who are geniune, as I see in

some BTG articles. This gives faith and encouragement to everyone

rather than confounding their views and possibly alienating them.

 

Haribol

Mahendra

[Guest guest]

achintya, "mcthaker" <mcthaker> wrote:

>

> Should there be any effort to research other Acaryas' writings? And

> if not, then could we be in danger of following the same path as

> Christianity, Judaism and Islam where everything except their own

is

> rejected outright and everyone else is persecuted?

 

If we have maintain a spirit of intellectual detachment, perhaps we

can avoid the sort of fanatical intolerance you allude to. After all,

we have the evidence to examine rationally - the lyrics of the

kiirtanas in question, and the Vedic evidence regarding what is and

is not bona fide. What we have to avoid is sentimental attachment. I

am partial to the compositions of Thyaagaraaja, but if someone points

out an irreconciable difference between some writings of his and

Vedic siddhaanta, then I have to acknowledge it. Then again, as I

mentioned before, we can appreciate the sincerity of a devotee's

offering even if it lacks the proper siddhaanta. How many times have

we seen Srila Prabhupada encourage cigarette-smoking guitar playing

rock and rollers who wanted to sing about Krishna? We should apply a

similar standard of tolerance to Indian born composers, many of whom

are likely to have a higher standard of saadhana, at least.

 

Of course, the issue of what to play in a temple is separate, and I

would still hold that only the compositions of proper Vaishnavas

should be played in our temples. But if there is still doubt about

that, then why not play Vedic mantras? The Tirupati Temple

Devasthanams, among other organizations, publishes audio recordings

of Vedic mantras chanted very properly by pukka brahmins. It's just

another thought...

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 15 Apr 2003, krishna_susarla wrote:

> Then again, as I

> mentioned before, we can appreciate the sincerity of a devotee's

> offering even if it lacks the proper siddhaanta.

 

Okay, but with such faith we enter the realm of irrational subjectivity. Who

decides how sincere a medieval poet was, and on what basis--other than faith?

 

MDd

[Guest guest]

achintya, mpt@u... wrote:

>

> On Tue, 15 Apr 2003, krishna_susarla wrote:

> > Then again, as I

> > mentioned before, we can appreciate the sincerity of a devotee's

> > offering even if it lacks the proper siddhaanta.

>

> Okay, but with such faith we enter the realm of irrational

subjectivity. Who decides how sincere a medieval poet was, and on

what basis--other than faith?

>

> MDd

 

I was thinking about "sincerity" here in terms of what has been

defined for us in scriptural texts as being consistent with pure

devotional service. For example, I am more apt to listen to the

poetry of a Vaishnava who writes about wanting to serve the Lord as

opposed to one who glorifies Krishna worship for the purpose of

liberation, acquisition of material wealth, etc. This may be in spite

of the fact that the former poet is not well versed in the esoterics

of rasa theology. Then again, neither am I, which is why I tend to be

tolerant within the limits of my knowledge base, and open to critical

discussion so long as it is based on revealed scriptures.