why are Gaudiya Vaishnavas so intolerant?

[Guest guest]

Why are they?

In Hinduism it is common to regard one's Ishtadevata as supreme and all other

deities as aspects or manifestations of him/her.

For instance, the Shaivas regard Shiva as Parabrahman and respect Vishnu,

Krishna, Brahma, etc. as aspects or manifestations of Shiva and the goddesses

such as Lakshmi, Radha, Sarasvati, etc. as aspects or manifestations of

Shakti-Devi.

The Shaktas also respect the other deities.

But the Gaudiya Vaishnavas seem to hold the view that only Krishna is god, all

other deities are mere demi-gods.

Why? Did Sri Chaitanya preach that?

Is this view shared by all Vaishnava sects, or are there branches of the

Vaishnava tradition that follow the classical Hindu tradition?

On which scriptures do they base their view, and on whose interpretation of these scriptures?

[Guest guest]

in the shaiva and shivaites i think that this is simply a tendence towards

impersonalism... the real meaning under that, is that the absolute truth is

Nirvishesha Brahman and it takes some forms, all with the same value (krsna,

vishnu, rama, indra, shiva, brahma, hanuman and even jesus or buddha) to

preach people who is too ignorant to see that distinctions and variety are

maya.

 

vaishnavism and gaudya vaishnavism is highly differentiated, god became a

very vague and perhaps an almost meaningless word,

 

in the personalities of godhead (this is "the word"....... vishnu tattva!!)

there are plenty of differences and rasas

 

shiva is a unique kind of living being that is not god (supreme personality

of godhead) but has all the god's potencies

 

the devas are jivas but generally pure and dedicated devotees of the Lord

Sri KrsnA. They are so powerful, that in particular conditions, ordinary

human beeings can correctly consider them god or god's personalities,

because they are so close to krishna and they are representing him executing

perfectly his will

 

so there is a detailed approach (gaudya vaishnavism) and a non detailed one

(maybe the current hinduism)

 

the "all is the same" is also the most offensive for the devas... to say in

a subtle manner that undifferentiated brahman is the absolute, true and only

reality means that neither god or devas do not really exist..... another

thing is that the devas "suffer" to not be recognized as servants of god and

they do not like to be prayed for material advantages and not to obtain love

for god

 

yasoda nandana dasa... italy

 

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[Guest guest]

achintya, "Alexandra Kafka"

<alexandra.kafka@a...> wrote:

> Why are they?

 

Dear Alexandra,

 

The question is not why Gaudiiya Vaishnavism is "intolerant," but

rather why new-age Hinduism as you no doubt understand it has become

so sentimental. Please review all of my comments before responding.

 

Followers of Sanaatana Dharma, commonly known to the lay public

as "Hinduism," are known by their obedience to the Vedas. For

guidance on spiritual matters one must consult a source that is

transcendental to the defects of conditioned life, i.e. the tendency

to have limited senses, to make mistakes, to cheat or be cheated, to

be under illusion. All of these things affect the conditioned soul,

and one who is subject to them cannot be relied upon to pontificate

on the Absolute Truth. Indeed, the Absolute Truth, the Supreme

Personality of Godhead, is known only by His grace:

 

teSAM satata-yuktAnAM bhajatAM prIti-pUrvakam |

dadAmi buddhi-yogaM taM yena mAm upayAnti te ||

 

To those who are constantly devoted to serving Me with love, I give

the understanding by which they can come to Me. (Bhagavad-giitaa

10.10)

 

Yet it is also known that one cannot even hope to attain this supreme

goal without being attenting to the scriptural injunctions:

 

yaH shaastra-vidhim utsR^ijya vartate kaama-kaarataH |

na sa siddhim avaapnoti na sukha.m na paraa.m gatim || giitaa 16.23 ||

 

He who discards scriptural injunctions and acts according to his own

whims attains neither perfection, nor happiness, nor the supreme

destination. (bhagavad-giitaa 16.23)

 

tasmaach chhaastra.m pramaaNa.m te kaaryaakaarya-vyavasthitau |

j~naatvaa shaastra-vidhaanokta.m karma kartum ihaarhasi || giitaa

16.24 ||

 

One should therefore understand what is duty and what is not duty by

the regulations of scriptures. Knowing such rules and regulations,

one should act so that he may gradually be elevated. (bhagavad-giitaa

16.24)

 

Hence, we are referred to scripture.

 

> In Hinduism it is common to regard one's Ishtadevata as supreme and

all other deities as aspects or manifestations of him/her.

 

This is not correct, if by Hinduism you refer to Sanaatana Dharma, or

in other words that eternal religion based on the Vedas. More on this

below.

 

> For instance, the Shaivas regard Shiva as Parabrahman and respect

Vishnu, Krishna, Brahma, etc. as aspects or manifestations of Shiva

and the goddesses such as Lakshmi, Radha, Sarasvati, etc. as aspects

or manifestations of Shakti-Devi.

> The Shaktas also respect the other deities.

 

But Lord Shiva never makes such a claim about himself. Rather, he

remains devoted to the worship of Lord Vishnu. The Bhaagavatam 12th

canto refers to him as the greatest Vaishnava: "vaiShNavaanam yathaa

shambu."

 

> But the Gaudiya Vaishnavas seem to hold the view that only Krishna

is god, all other deities are mere demi-gods.

> Why? Did Sri Chaitanya preach that?

 

This view is held by Gaudiiya Vaishnavas because it is the correct

view, upheld by Sri Chaitanya, Sri Ramanuja, Sri Madhva, Sri

Vallabha, Sri Vishnuswawmi, Sri Sridhar Swami, and the entire Vedas

and Puraanas.

 

The shrutis clearly state that from Vishnu the other deities were

born:

 

atha puruSho ha vai naaraayaNo 'kaamayata prajaa sR^ijeyeti |

naaraayaNaat praaNo jaayate manaH sarvendriyaaNi cha kha.m vaayur

jyotir aapaH pR^ithivii vishvasya dhaariNii |

naaraayaNaad brahmaa jaayate |

naaraayaNaad rudro jaayate |

naaraayaNaad indro jaayate |

naaraayaNat prajaapatiH prajaayate |

naaraayaNaad dvadashaadityaa rudraa vasavaH sarvaaNi chandaa.msi

naaraayaNaad eva samutpadyante naaraayaNat pravartante naaraayaNe

praliiyante |

etad R^ig-vedo-shiro 'dhiite || naaraayaNopaniShad 1 ||

 

Naaraayana is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He desired, "I

shall create children." From Naaraayana the life breath, mind, all

the senses, either, air, fire, water, and earth, which maintains the

universe, were born. From Naaraayana Brahmaa was born. From

Naaraayana Shiva was born. From Naaraayana Indra was born. From

Naaraayana Prajaapati was born. From Naaraayana the twelve Adityas,

the Rudras, the Vasus, and all the Vedic hymns were born. From

Naaraayana they were manifested. Into Naaraayana they again enter.

This is the crown of the R^ig Veda (naaraayaNopaniShad 1).

 

It is not logical to assert that the devatas are equal to Vishnu when

they have their origins in Him. According to Vedaanta, the Supreme

Lord is without beginning or end and remains ever changeless. There

is nothing like being born or created by another living entitiy in

the case of God.

 

The shrutis also say that among all Deities, Agni is the lowest while

Vishnu is the Supreme and topmost:

 

agnirvai devaanamavamo viShNuH paramaH | aitareya braahmaNa 1.1.1 |

aniravamo devataanaaM viShNuH paramaH | taittiriiya saMhitaa 5.5.1 |

 

Furthermore, the fact that the devatas are not Vishnu is made clear

by the fact that they do not understand Him:

 

naaha.m viri~ncho na kumaaranaaradau na brahmaputraa munayaH

sureshaaH |

vidaama yasyehitama.mshakaa.mshakaa na tatsvaruupa.m

pR^ithagiishamaaninaH || bhaa 6.17.32 ||

 

Neither I [Lord Shiva], nor Brahmaa, nor the Ashvinii-kumaaras, nor

Naarada or the other great sages who are Brahmaa's sons, nor even the

demigods can understand the pastimes and personality of the Supreme

Lord. Although we are part of the Supreme Lord, we consider ourselves

independent, separate controllers, and thus we cannot understand His

identity (bhaagavata puraaNa 6.17.32).

 

When the devatas themselves indicate that they are subordinate to

Vishnu, there is no precedent for second guessing them and assuming

they are also God.

 

> Is this view shared by all Vaishnava sects, or are there branches

of the Vaishnava tradition that follow the classical Hindu tradition?

> On which scriptures do they base their view, and on whose

interpretation of these scriptures?

 

The statements regarding Vishnu's supremacy are based on the most

straightforward reading of the entire Vedas, from the shrutis through

the itihaasas and puraanas.

 

vede raamaayaNe chaiva puraaNe bhaarate tathaa |

aadaav ante cha madhye cha hariH sarvatra giiyate || SkP 4.95.12 ||

 

In the Vedas, Raamaayana, Puraanas, and Mahaabhaarata Lord Hari is

glorified everywhere - in the beginning, middle, and end (skandha

puraaNa 4.95.12).

 

The idea that all devatas are the same Godhead is not supported by

the Vedas and is not found in any school of Vedaanta except for that

of Shri Shankaraachaarya. However, Shankaraachaarya's views on

Vedaanta have been extensively refuted by every Vedaanta commentator

who came after him. Today, the only reason his pantheistic views

continue to survive is because they are adopted by the lay public who

have become somewhat less attentive to scriptural direction than in

previous ages. Shankaraachaarya's philosophy of impersonalist

pantheism became further watered down by various 19th-20th

century "reformers" like Vivekananda, Chinmayananda, Aurobindo, and

others who were primarily influenced by secular British sentiments

during the age of imperialism, and seemed primarily motivated by

political, Indian nationalistic concerns. Such Hindu leaders have

historically given much lip service to Vedas, but generally they do

not follow them very strictly when examined closely. On the contrary,

I have personally noted many instances where these leaders would

write commentaries on a fairly straightforward text like Bhagavad-

Gita, only to insert their own ideas into the text which are not

found in Lord Krishna's teachings.

 

Regarding your comment about "respecting" other deities, it remains

unclear to me why worshiping another deity as God, regardless of

whether or not this is correct, is equal to respecting him. It is

more logical to infer that truly respecting a deity means to follow

that deity's example and instructions. Throughout the Vedic

literature there are multiple statements by Lord Shiva, Lord Brahmaa,

Goddess Paarvatii, and many others to the effect that we should all

surrender to Lord Vishnu. Hence, is is the Vaishnavas only who truly

respect the demigods.

 

yours,

 

- k

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 11 Jun 2003, Alexandra Kafka wrote:

> But the Gaudiya Vaishnavas seem to hold the view that only Krishna is god, all

other deities are mere demi-gods.

 

Like you, I'm not aware that that notion is true, but if it is, a "mere

demi-god" is still worthy of all due respect. Lord Caitanya Himself visited

devata

temples many times.

 

 

 

> Is this view shared by all Vaishnava sects, or are there branches of the

> Vaishnava tradition that follow the classical Hindu tradition?

> On which scriptures do they base their view, and on whose interpretation of

> these scriptures?

 

It might be more productive to consider whether the standard scriptures and

acaryas even recognize such a notion as "the classical Hindu tradition" in the

first place. Srila Prabhupada observed that the word "Hindu" doesn't even

appear in such Sanskrit sources, so postulating a monolithic "Hindu tradition"

as a theological entity or parampara is itself questionable. Scholars aren't

agreed on how "Hinduism" is to be defined either.

 

Perhaps you could clarify what you meant by "classical Hindu tradition" in your

above question, and what that is based on; then we could look at it in terms of

Srila Prabhupada's teachings, as per the purpose of this list.

 

By the way, tolerance is one of the 26 Vaisnava qualities mentioned in

Caitanya-caritamrta. Readers here are likely be offended by any insinuation

that Gaudiya Vaisnavas are generally intolerant. Considering such a slight,

maybe the moderator's restraint is proof of Gaudiya Vaisnava tolerance.

 

MDd

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

achintya, "Alexandra Kafka"

<alexandra.kafka@a...> wrote:

> Why are they?

> In Hinduism it is common to regard one's Ishtadevata as supreme and

all other deities as aspects or manifestations of him/her.

 

Well can you substantiate this statement from Prashan Traya or

Bhagavatam which is the core of Vedic Philosophy called Vedanta.

Please do so and then we will see why don't we Gaudiyas follow such

rules laid in scripture. First give a verse saying above.

 

> For instance, the Shaivas regard Shiva as Parabrahman and respect

Vishnu, Krishna, Brahma, etc. as aspects or manifestations of Shiva

and the goddesses such as Lakshmi, Radha, Sarasvati, etc. as aspects

or manifestations of Shakti-Devi.

> The Shaktas also respect the other deities.

> But the Gaudiya Vaishnavas seem to hold the view that only Krishna

is god, all other deities are mere demi-gods.

 

First let me tell you that not calling someone God doesn't mean being

disrespectful to them. According to Vedanta Absolute is Sarva Guna

Sampana bhagavan who though one manifest himself in many forms.

Krishna, Rama, Vasudeva, Narayana etc are all forms of God. Whereas

others are mere demigods since they are different from the above in

tattva. Like few charateristics of Lord are eternal existence of

inconcievable "form" of ever shining consciousness and absolute

transcendental bliss, absolutely immutable and not subject to birth,

death and decay or ignorance.

 

He whos very nature is like one above described is Lord and not

anyone else. all other dieties differ from Lord in their nature or

tattva.

 

> Why? Did Sri Chaitanya preach that?

> Is this view shared by all Vaishnava sects, or are there branches

of the Vaishnava tradition that follow the classical Hindu tradition?

> On which scriptures do they base their view, and on whose

interpretation of these scriptures?

 

Dear Sir, that is why all Vaishnavas say that Vishnu is alone supreme

and rest our servants. Please check Vedanta sutra, Bhagavata, Gita

and Upanisads for more details.

 

Your Servant Always

Sumeet.