BG 5.8-9: A question for discussion

[Guest guest]

"A person in the divine consciousness, although engaged in seeing,

hearing, touching, smelling, eating, moving about, sleeping and

breathing, always knows within himself that he actually does nothing

at all. Because while speaking, evacuating, receiving, or opening or

closing his eyes, he always knows that only the material senses are

engaged with their objects and that he is aloof from them."

 

(from Bhagavad-gita As It Is 5.8-9)

 

 

When this verse states that a devotee is aloof from the material

senses, does it not contradict many other explanations by which it is

understood that a devotee *utilizes* the senses and sense-organs in

Krishna-consciousness? If a devotee has dovetailed his material

senses in Krishna-consciousness, then he is not aloof from them, for

he is actively using them for a higher, spiritual purpose. This

verse, on the other hand, seems to speak of a devotee's body

performing ordinary material activities and yet being aloof from

those activities. Thus there appears to be a contradiction in these

two points of view - being aloof from the senses vs spiritualizing

one's senses.

 

comments?

 

- K

[Guest guest]

At 04:40 PM 8/10/2003 +0000, you wrote:

"A person in the divine

consciousness, although engaged in seeing,

hearing, touching, smelling, eating, moving about, sleeping and

breathing, always knows within himself that he actually does nothing

at all. Because while speaking, evacuating, receiving, or opening or

closing his eyes, he always knows that only the material senses are

engaged with their objects and that he is aloof from them."

(from Bhagavad-gita As It Is 5.8-9)

When this verse states that a devotee is aloof from the material

senses, does it not contradict many other explanations by which it is

understood that a devotee *utilizes* the senses and sense-organs in

Krishna-consciousness? If a devotee has dovetailed his material

senses in Krishna-consciousness, then he is not aloof from them, for

he is actively using them for a higher, spiritual purpose. This

verse, on the other hand, seems to speak of a devotee's body

performing ordinary material activities and yet being aloof from

those activities. Thus there appears to be a contradiction in these

two points of view - being aloof from the senses vs spiritualizing

one's senses.

comments?

Well, I'm not sure aloof means completely disconnected from the senses;

rather, it means at some emotional distance. So in this context being

aloof from the material senses may mean that the devotee is not affected

by them, that his or her practice or bhajan are not impeded by their

inherent urges but instead directs the activities of the senses. For

example, although I'm engaged with my students by directing their

activities connected with my classes, I'm not intimately involved in

their private lives. This is a quick, top-of-the-head response. I look

foward to others' insights. Mukunda Datta prabhu?

Babhru das

[Guest guest]

"A person in the divine consciousness, although engaged in seeing, hearing,

touching, smelling, eating, moving about, sleeping and breathing, always knows

within himself that he actually does nothing at all. Because while speaking,

evacuating, receiving, or opening or closing his eyes, he always knows that

only the material senses are engaged with their objects and that he is aloof

from them."(from Bhagavad-gita As It Is 5.8-9)When this verse states that a

devotee is aloof from the material senses, does it not contradict many other

explanations by which it is understood that a devotee *utilizes* the senses and

sense-organs in Krishna-consciousness? If a devotee has dovetailed his material

senses in Krishna-consciousness, then he is not aloof from them, for he is

actively using them for a higher, spiritual purpose. This verse, on the other

hand, seems to speak of a devotee's body performing ordinary material

activities and yet being aloof from those activities. Thus there appears to be

a contradiction in these two points of view - being aloof from the senses vs

spiritualizing one's senses. comments?- KIt seems to me that this verse

explains how the soul is riding in the machinery of the body. All activities of

the body are going on under the direction of Krsna utilizing the material

energy. So in that sense all the soul (self) can do is to desire. The soul

ultimately has nothing to do with the body and can only desire to serve Krsna

or not to serve Krsna; everything is carried out by material nature under the

direction of Krsna.To from this group, send an email

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[Guest guest]

achintya, "krishna_susarla"

<krishna_susarla@h...> wrote:

> "A person in the divine consciousness, although engaged in seeing,

> hearing, touching, smelling, eating, moving about, sleeping and

> breathing, always knows within himself that he actually does

nothing

> at all. Because while speaking, evacuating, receiving, or opening

or

> closing his eyes, he always knows that only the material senses are

> engaged with their objects and that he is aloof from them."

>

> (from Bhagavad-gita As It Is 5.8-9)

>

>

> When this verse states that a devotee is aloof from the material

> senses, does it not contradict many other explanations by which it

is

> understood that a devotee *utilizes* the senses and sense-organs in

> Krishna-consciousness? If a devotee has dovetailed his material

> senses in Krishna-consciousness, then he is not aloof from them,

for

> he is actively using them for a higher, spiritual purpose. This

> verse, on the other hand, seems to speak of a devotee's body

> performing ordinary material activities and yet being aloof from

> those activities. Thus there appears to be a contradiction in these

> two points of view - being aloof from the senses vs spiritualizing

> one's senses.

>

> comments?

>

> - K

 

Hare Krishna

Krishna prabhu i suggest that you should read the verses following

5.8-9. Especially verse 5.11.

 

"The yogis, abandoning attachment, act with body, mind, intelligence,

and even with the senses, only for the purpose of purification. "

 

Purport:

By acting in Krsna consciousness for the satisfaction of the senses

of Krsna, any action, whether of the body, mind, intelligence or even

of the senses, is purified of material contamination. There are no

material reactions resulting from the activities of a Krsna conscious

person. Therefore, purified activities, which are generally called

sad-acara, can be easily performed by acting in Krsna consciousness.

Sri Rupa Gosvami in his Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu describes this as

follows:

 

iha yasya harer dasye

karmana manasa gira

nikhilasv apy avasthasu

jivan-muktah sa ucyate

 

 

"A person acting in Krsna consciousness (or, in other words, in the

service of Krsna) with his body, mind, intelligence and words is a

liberated person even within the material world, although he may be

engaged in many so-called material activities." He has no false ego,

nor does he believe that he is this material body, nor that he

possesses the body. He knows that he is not this body and that this

body does not belong to him. He himself belongs to Krsna, and the

body too belongs to Krsna. When he applies everything produced of the

body, mind, intelligence, words, life, wealth, etc.--whatever he may

have within his possession--to Krsna's service, he is at once

dovetailed with Krsna. He is one with Krsna and is devoid of the

false ego that leads one to believe that he is the body, etc. This is

the perfect stage of Krsna consciousness.

 

----

 

In all the above statements of SP "He" refers to baddha jivaatma

whose knowledge is covered by ignorance. Read SPs purport that "When

he applies everything produced of the body, mind, intelligence,

words, life, wealth, etc.--whatever he may have within his possession-

-to Krsna's service, he is at once dovetailed with Krsna" So your

assumption that senses/sense organs are dovetailed with Krishna is

wrong. SP states only "He" baddha jivaatma is dovetailed. And how

because "He has no false ego, nor does he believe that he is this

material body, nor that he possesses the body. He knows that he is

not this body and that this body does not belong to him.[My comment:

In this way aloof from body, senses etc..] He himself belongs to

Krsna, and the body too belongs to Krsna.[My comment: In this

way "He" baddha jivaatma who knows "Himself" to be aloof from

prakriti as said above is dovetailed with Krishna.]

 

SP further states:

"He is one with Krsna and is devoid of the false ego that leads one

to believe that he is the body, etc."

 

also regarding spiritualizing ones senses read the first paragraph of

the purport and then try to read it with second paragraph as i

explained. I hope this will answer your question.

 

All glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga

 

Your Servant Always

Sumeet.

[Guest guest]

Hare Krsna!

 

 

> It seems to me that this verse explains how the soul

> is riding in the machinery of the body. All

> activities of the body are going on under the

> direction of Krsna utilizing the material energy. So

> in that sense all the soul (self) can do is to

> desire. The soul ultimately has nothing to do with

> the body and can only desire to serve Krsna or not

> to serve Krsna; everything is carried out by

> material nature under the direction of Krsna.

>

>

 

This is what I understood to be true. BG 5.14 says

that soul is not doing anything but the modes of

nature and in pp 5.15 Srila Prabhupada explains this

further. If we look at it frome the point of modern

science, still we have to accept that there is higher

principle that is moving the body - we wish to make

the movement of some part of the body and that's all.

After that wish we don't know what to do - which

nerves to stimulate in the brain and which muscles

they will stimulate and so on. Scientist that are

exploring the brain also don't know that, it is so

complicated that they only know the areas that have to

do something with specific action. Than there has to

be some mechanism that connects the wish and the gross

body and that is Paramatma in the heart who knows all

our desires and He than directs modes of nature. All

we can do is to purify our desires and choose to serve

Krsna.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna.

 

achintya, "krishna_susarla"

<krishna_susarla@h...> wrote:

> "A person in the divine consciousness, although engaged in seeing,

> hearing, touching, smelling, eating, moving about, sleeping and

> breathing, always knows within himself that he actually does

nothing

> at all. Because while speaking, evacuating, receiving, or opening

or

> closing his eyes, he always knows that only the material senses are

> engaged with their objects and that he is aloof from them."

>

> (from Bhagavad-gita As It Is 5.8-9)

>

>

> When this verse states that a devotee is aloof from the material

> senses, does it not contradict many other explanations by which it

is

> understood that a devotee *utilizes* the senses and sense-organs in

> Krishna-consciousness? [snip]

 

Thanks everyone for your comments. It's always better to put several

heads together when a verse is hard for one to understand. I have

gone through all of them and have some further

comments/clarifications.

 

"In all the above statements of SP "He" refers to baddha jivaatma

whose knowledge is covered by ignorance.... SP states only "He"

baddha jivaatma is dovetailed. And how because "He has no false ego,

nor does he believe that he is this material body, nor that he

possesses the body. He knows that he is not this body and that this

body does not belong to him.[My comment: In this way aloof from body,

senses etc..] He himself belongs to Krsna, and the body too belongs

to Krsna.[My comment: In this way "He" baddha jivaatma who

knows "Himself" to be aloof from prakriti as said above is dovetailed

with Krishna.] " (Sumeet)

 

Yes, it is very clear that a "mukta jiivaatmaa" is not the subject of

the verses. The reference is to a jiiva who is still within a

material body, albeit at a very elevated stage of devotional service -

a person who is yuktaH - engaged in the devotional service, or as

Srila Prabhupada translates, "in the divine consciousness."

 

The point remains, however, that even a baddha-jiivaatmaa who is so

engaged will not be "aloof" from his senses. Rather, he is engaged

only because he is spiritualizing his material senses by engaging

them in devotional service. A mukta-jiivaatmaa has spiritualIZED

senses, while a baddha-jiivaatmaa is spiritualIZING his senses. I

should have made this more clear earlier.

 

In his comments to this verse, Bhurijana dasa writes:

 

"Krishna now describes how transcendental knowledge that we are not

our bodies should be expressed through work. This knowledge allows us

to remain aloof from the body as we work. We see our bodies acting,

but we have no interest in the fruits of our actions. Srila

Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura explains that the niskama-karma-yogi,

even while acting with his body, senses and so on, is a tattva-vit -

he realizes that the self is separate from the body."

 

This just underscores the confusion, because in the next verse

Krishna refers to the same type of devotee as surrendering all of his

works unto Him. This seems contradictory to the previous verse

wherein the devotee was being described as aloof from the senses.

 

OBVIOUSLY, the Gita is not contradicting itself - the question then

is how to understand that these verses are in harmony with each

other. Thus, if I'm not mistaken you suggest that aloofness from the

body is to be understood as follows:

 

1) The devotee is aloof from his senses because he knows he is not

this body and the body does not even belong to him. He engages the

senses, but is aloof from them in the senses that he is not attached

to them and their material sense objects.

 

"Well, I'm not sure aloof means completely disconnected from the

senses; rather, it means at some emotional distance. So in this

context being aloof from the material senses may mean that the

devotee is not affected by them, that his or her practice or bhajan

are not impeded by their inherent urges but instead directs the

activities of the senses. For example, although I'm engaged with my

students by directing their activities connected with my classes, I'm

not intimately involved in their private lives. This is a quick, top-

of-the-head response." (Babhru)

 

According to this:

 

2) The devotee is aloof from the senses because he is not bothered by

their natural (material) urges and thus a slave to them. Instead, he

is their master and engages them in devotional service, but when they

must be satisfied in regards to their natural urges he tolerates such

necessities without being bound by them.

 

Of course, one could argue that one is becoming attached to his

senses by eating prasaadam, smelling the incense offered to the Lord,

tasting the Tulasi offered to Lord's lotus feet, etc. But a pure

devotee's enjoying of such things is not via material senses, but

from spiritualized senses. This verse only refers to material

activities and material (not spiritualized) senses - these are what a

devotee is aloof from.

 

"It seems to me that this verse explains how the soul is riding in

the machinery of the body. All activities of the body are going on

under the direction of Krsna utilizing the material energy. So in

that sense all the soul (self) can do is to desire. The soul

ultimately has nothing to do with the body and can only desire to

serve Krsna or not to serve Krsna; everything is carried out by

material nature under the direction of Krsna." (Rupa-Vilasa)

 

This seems to be a different take on the verse.

 

3) The devotee is aloof from the senses because his senses are

operating under the movement of the material energy; all he can do is

desire them to do something in Krishna's service, but sometimes they

must be engaged in other bodily necessities (evacuating and so on),

and the devotee allows this without being bound to the natural

reaction of such sense activities. In this sense he is aloof.

 

I think I like all three explanations; but perhaps they are all three

saying the same thing in a different way.

 

Putting them together, one must conclude that the devotee in divine

consciousness, despite having material body and material senses,

knows that he is not his material body and senses, knows that they

belong to Krishna, and knows also that he is not the doer since the

senses are really operating under the material energy. Therefore, as

the proprietor of the material body and senses, he (the jiiva) is

aloof from because he is aloof from their natural, material urges

(not aloof from the spiritualized sense activities but rather from

natural, bodily urges), aloof from the idea of enjoying the senses

for himself, and aloof from the idea of being the master of his

senses (which is nothing more than false ego).

 

 

- K

[Guest guest]

Krishna prabhu can you please elaborate on

 

1)What is spiritualizing ones senses ?

 

2)Are you refering to material senses by using the word senses above ?

 

3)What are spiritualized sense activities ?

 

 

Your Servant Always

Sumeet.

[Guest guest]

On Sun, 10 Aug 2003, Bill Reed wrote:

> At 04:40 PM 8/10/2003 +0000, you wrote:

> >"A person in the divine consciousness, although engaged in seeing,

> >hearing, touching, smelling, eating, moving about, sleeping and

> >breathing, always knows within himself that he actually does nothing

> >at all. Because while speaking, evacuating, receiving, or opening or

> >closing his eyes, he always knows that only the material senses are

> >engaged with their objects and that he is aloof from them."

> >(from Bhagavad-gita As It Is 5.8-9)

> >

> >

> >When this verse states that a devotee is aloof from the material

> >senses, does it not contradict many other explanations by which it is

> >understood that a devotee *utilizes* the senses and sense-organs in

> >Krishna-consciousness? If a devotee has dovetailed his material

> >senses in Krishna-consciousness, then he is not aloof from them, for

> >he is actively using them for a higher, spiritual purpose. This

> >verse, on the other hand, seems to speak of a devotee's body

> >performing ordinary material activities and yet being aloof from

> >those activities. Thus there appears to be a contradiction in these

> >two points of view - being aloof from the senses vs spiritualizing

> >one's senses.

> >

> >comments?

>

> Well, I'm not sure aloof means completely disconnected from the senses;

> rather, it means at some emotional distance. So in this context being aloof

> from the material senses may mean that the devotee is not affected by them,

> that his or her practice or bhajan are not impeded by their inherent urges

> but instead directs the activities of the senses. For example, although I'm

> engaged with my students by directing their activities connected with my

> classes, I'm not intimately involved in their private lives. This is a

> quick, top-of-the-head response. I look foward to others' insights. Mukunda

> Datta prabhu?

 

That sounds good to me; some degree of volition and control is implicit in all

our actions, even if the instruments are supplied by Krsna. It is the

"kama-sankalpa" (i.e., deliberate intention) which determines the nature of

one's work.

 

Since this chapter is discussing selfless karma, the word "yukta" doesn't

necessarily mean a pure devotee, although Srila Prabhupada implies that here.

In the commentaries, Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura and Baladeva Vidgyabhusana

seem to take "yukta" in the sense of a "(niskama)karma-yogi," a worker free of

pride, while the verse itself adds that he is a knower of truth, or

"tattva-vit." Only one who is self-realized can work at all selflessly, or in

pure bhakti. Sridharasvami and Ramanuja took it so too (as does Bhurijana

prabhu).

 

Srila Prabhupada seems to take it a step further into pure bhakti. In his

characteristically practical way, he suggests one use everything at one's

disposal (beginning with one's senses) to fulfil Krsna's desires, fully aware of

one's spiritual identity as Krsna's eternal servant. Generally, the word

"yukta" means "proper" and "engaged," so it seems proper that "engaged" appears

several times in Prabhupada's purport.

 

MDd