Milk and cow protection

[Guest guest]

I would like to raise an issue that is bothering me for some time

now:

In vedic society cow were respected and treated right. But in modern

days things are different.

Considering the fact that in our day's cows are being raised in

terrible condition, being slaughtered and tortured in the milking

process in the modern milk industry, should we avoid milk for cow

protection?

 

Yours:

Omer

[Guest guest]

I would hope to see better answers to this question than have so far been

posted. The issue is not so much whether we can be absolved of sinful reactions

by Lord Krishna or whether milk has wonderful benefits.  I think the issue is

more what sort of preaching is it that we take the byproduct of a tortured and

ultimately butchered creature. It makes us appear rather uncaring, i.e., we're

OK, Krsna is absolving us of sinful reactions.

 

Another issue is that cows are pumped full of hormones and stuffed with

pesticide laden feed, which should make us question what we are offering to

Krsna and what we are consuming. Is Krsna truly pleased by being offered such

nasty stuff, and at the cost of His cows being tortured and killed?

 

Some devotees have opted to use organic milk products which takes care of the

problem of pesticides and hormones, but the cows are still ultimately

slaughtered well before their natural lifetimes have elapsed.

 

I would like to hear more on this topic.

 

Rupa-vilasa dasa

[Guest guest]

At 06:09 PM 11/21/03 -0600, you wrote:

I would hope to see

better answers to this question than have so far been posted. The issue

is not so much whether we can be absolved of sinful reactions by Lord

Krishna or whether milk has wonderful benefits. I think the issue

is more what sort of preaching is it that we take the byproduct of a

tortured and ultimately butchered creature. It makes us appear rather

uncaring, i.e., we're OK, Krsna is absolving us of sinful

reactions.

 

Another issue is that cows are pumped full of hormones and

stuffed with pesticide laden feed, which should make us question what we

are offering to Krsna and what we are consuming. Is Krsna truly pleased

by being offered such nasty stuff, and at the cost of His cows being

tortured and killed?

 

Some devotees have opted to use organic milk products which

takes care of the problem of pesticides and hormones, but the cows are

still ultimately slaughtered well before their natural lifetimes have

elapsed.

 

I would like to hear more on this

topic.

I vigorously second Rupa-vilasa's concerns. I have heard complaints from

many devotees, including one of my daughters, that the

"preaching" by ISKCON members that the cows benefit by our

offering the milk products to Krishna, sounds like a rationalization. I

don't disagree with that assessment. I'm fortunate enough to live where a

devotee protects enough cows that I can buy my milk from him, but I can't

always afford to buy enough to satisfy all our milk needs. I think this

is something that needs to be discussed clearly and openly. It won't help

to brand interlocutors (or their positions) with pejrative labels. If

we're going to discuss it, let's do it in a way that will bear real

fruit. Otherwise, we may as well let it go.

Babhru das

[Guest guest]

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003, rupavi wrote:

>>> I think the issue is more what sort of preaching is it that we take the

byproduct of a tortured and ultimately butchered creature. It makes us appear

rather uncaring, i.e., we're OK, Krsna is absolving us of sinful reactions.

Another issue is that cows are pumped full of hormones and stuffed with

pesticide laden feed, which should make us question what we are offering to

Krsna and what we are consuming. Is Krsna truly pleased by being offered such

nasty stuff, and at the cost of His cows being tortured and killed?>>>

 

These are very good points.

 

Actually, there are all kinds of logically similar problems regarding things

that are considered quite "normal" in modern society, such as the simple act of

driving a car; this single habit not only destroys the environment in multiple

ways, but it also supports sweatshop labor in third world factories, contributes

to increased traffic and associated accidents, and more or less patronizes the

oil trade that indirectly encourages Islamic terrorism, for example.

 

The other day in a lecture here, a highly trespected ISKCON sannyasi from India

narrated the story of how he once met Maneka Gandhi, the Indian environmental

activist and minister. She wanted to know what ISKCON was doing to reverse the

disastrous abuses of Bhumidevi, abuses that our modern lifestyle naturally

entails. Swamiji explained to her that ISKCON teaches people to

control--through practical self understanding and Devotion to God--the lower

forces that impel us helplessly towards such sinful abuse. He added that her

practical work itself was also necessary and appreciable, even though only

enlightened spiritual culture can really maintain it. ISKCON has also had

environmental laws in place for many years (such as its ban on styrofoam

plates), although few if any temples actually follow these, which makes one

wonder whether ISKCON’s other principles are also being neglected, and if so,

what long term effects that will eventually produce.

 

At some point, it seems that developing the self-sufficient, sustainable,

agrarian farms that provide the economic bedrock of a society that can uphold

varnasrama-dharma, will become unavoidable.

 

Of course, that’s a big enough project that very little has been accomplished in

the thirty or so years since Srila Prabhupada told us varnasrama was the

remaining half of his mission. Maybe the main question is whether or not it

will be too late, by the time most of those in ISKCON decide to act seriously on

instructions such as these (from a conversation on 2/14/1977):

 

"Just like our (name withheld). He was not fit for sannyasa but he was given

sannyasa. And five women he was attached, and he disclosed. Therefore

varnasrama-dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do. So the

varnasrama-dharma should be introduced all over the world, and...

Satsvarupa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community?

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Brahmana, ksatriyas. There must be regular education.

Hari-sauri: But in our community, if the..., being as we're training up as

Vaisnavas...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hari-sauri: ...then how will we be able to make divisions in our society?

Prabhupada: Vaisnava is not so easy. The varnasrama-dharma should be established

to become a Vaisnava. It is not so easy to become Vaisnava.

Hari-sauri: No, it's not a cheap thing.

Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore this should be made. Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava, is

not so easy. If Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava is so easy, why so many fall down,

fall down? It is not easy."

 

Similarly (ibid):

 

"In big scale you cannot make all of them as brahmanas or sannyasis. No. That is

not possible. This is a small scale. How many percentage of people of the world

we are controlling? Very insignificant. But if you want to make the whole human

society perfect, then this Krsna consciousness movement should be introduced

according to Krsna's instruction, if you want to do it in a large scale for the

benefit of the whole human society.

Now we are picking up some of them, best. That is another thing. But Caitanya

Mahaprabhu said para-upakara. Why a certain section should be picked up? The

whole mass of people will get the benefit of it. Then it is required,

systematic. Sve sve karmany abhiratah samsiddhim labhate narah. Para-upakara

means mass benefit, not there is certain section. Then we have to introduce this

varnasrama-dharma. It must be done perfectly, and it is possible and people will

be happy."

 

In Srimad-Bhagavatam, 7.11.18-20, purport:

"In this age of Kali, practically everyone is a sudra (kalau sudra-sambhavah),

and finding anyone who is a brahmana, ksatriya or vaisya is very difficult.

Although the Krsna consciousness movement is a movement of brahmanas and

Vaisnavas, it is trying to reestablish the divine varnasrama institution, for

without this division of society there cannot be peace and prosperity anywhere."

 

Here is another positive instruction (from the purport to Bhagavatam, 4.4.34):

“According to the pancaratrika system, in this age the entire population is

supposed to consist of sudras because the brahminical culture has been lost.

But if anyone displays the signs of understanding Krsna consciousness, he should

be accepted, according to Vaisnava smrti regulations, as a prospective brahmana

and should be given all facilities to achieve the highest perfection.”

 

And in a 11/16/1976 lecture on Bhagavatam, 5.5.29, in Vrndavana, Prabhupada

said:

"Krsna says, catur-varnyam maya srstam [bg. 4.13]. My Guru Maharaja also wanted

to establish daiva-varnasrama. Yes."

 

 

> I would like to hear more on this topic.

 

Okay. Here's an auspicious picture to end with:

 

AhatyAhatya-mUrdhnA drutam anupibataH prasnutaM mAtur UdhaH

kiJcit kuJcaika-jAnor anavarata-calac-cAru-pucchasya dhenuH |

uttIrNaM tarNakasya priya-tanayatayA datta-huGkAra-mudrA

visraGsi-kSIra-dhArA-lavazabala-mukhasyAGgam AtRpti leDhi ||

 

"Repeatedly butted by the the head of her calf, a cow moos

softly with maternal delight while her calf, one knee slightly bent,

sucks her udder, waving it's tail beautifully; she then licks the

upturned face of her calf, whose mouth is sprinkled with droplets of

milk."

 

MDd

[Guest guest]

At 08:35 PM 11/21/2003 -0800, mpt wrote:

>ISKCON has also had environmental laws in place for many years (such as

>its ban on styrofoam plates), although few if any temples actually follow

>these, which makes one wonder whether ISKCON's other principles are also

>being neglected, and if so, what long term effects that will eventually

>produce.

 

Exactly. The "laws" reek of hypocrisy if we tout them without actually

following them, just as with our preaching about protecting children and

women. We're really good at protecting sannyasis and GBC members, though.

 

>At some point, it seems that developing the self-sufficient, sustainable,

>agrarian farms that provide the economic bedrock of a society that can

>uphold varnasrama-dharma, will become unavoidable.

 

The crime is that no one sees it as unavoidable now, that no one saw it as

unavoidable 25 years ago. We are not following the orders of our spiritual

master if we willfully neglect this for our comfortable urban and suburban

lifestyles.

 

>Okay. Here's an auspicious picture to end with:

>

> AhatyAhatya-mUrdhnA drutam anupibataH prasnutaM mAtur UdhaH

> kiJcit kuJcaika-jAnor anavarata-calac-cAru-pucchasya dhenuH |

> uttIrNaM tarNakasya priya-tanayatayA datta-huGkAra-mudrA

> visraGsi-kSIra-dhArA-lavazabala-mukhasyAGgam AtRpti leDhi ||

>

> "Repeatedly butted by the the head of her calf, a cow moos

>softly with maternal delight while her calf, one knee slightly bent,

>sucks her udder, waving it's tail beautifully; she then licks the

>upturned face of her calf, whose mouth is sprinkled with droplets of

>milk."

 

A nice image that, sadly, you will never see at the factory farms that

produce the milk you buy at Safeway.

 

Babhru das

[Guest guest]

Dear devotees

please accept my most humble obeisances

all glories to Srila Prabhupada

 

Although I've never sent any message to achintya I have been a member

of this forum for quite some time. This particular issue interests me

because it's one of those controversial topics about which the

profound and sensible logic of Srila Prabhupada's comments reveal the

scientific grounds on which Krsna consciousness is founded.

 

I don't have the exact vedabase quote with me at the moment, but I

clearly recall Prabhupada explaining that when you drink the cow's

milk and have the ox work on the fields that's what you can actually

call cow protection, if you just have unproductive and idle cows and

oxes and you call that proctection, sooner or later, someone will

argument killing them. Serving mankind is what protects the cow.

Veganism arguments of non violence do not help the cows ultimately

in the long run, although they do raise awaressness of ill treatment

of these fellows of ours, and are thus laudable.

 

your servant

Karuna Dasa

 

____________________

 

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.br

[Guest guest]

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003, Karuna Das wrote:

> This particular issue interests me

> because it's one of those controversial topics about which the

> profound and sensible logic of Srila Prabhupada's comments reveal the

> scientific grounds on which Krsna consciousness is founded.

 

Unfortunately, most ISKCON devotees simply don't read Srila Prabhupada's books

every day (which probably produces many of the instances of what others see as

hypocrisy; this is something Srila Prabhupada often criticised, from the very

beginning. How can one gain such profound or sensible logic without first

hearing it?

 

Lord Brahma said (Bhagavatam, 10.14.3), "O my Lord Krsna, a devotee who abandons

the path of empiric philosophical speculation aimed at merging in the existence

of the Supreme and engages himself in hearing Your glories and activities from a

bona fide sadhu, or saint, and who lives an honest life in the occupational

engagement of his social life, can conquer Your sympathy and mercy even though

You are ajita, or unconquerable."

 

Srila Prabhupada often cites this verse in this connection.

 

 

 

> I don't have the exact vedabase quote with me at the moment, but I

> clearly recall Prabhupada explaining that when you drink the cow's

> milk and have the ox work on the fields that's what you can actually

> call cow protection, if you just have unproductive and idle cows and

> oxes and you call that proctection, sooner or later, someone will

> argument killing them.

 

Yes. These two are the first things Krishna mentions when defining the

characteristics of the vaisyas (cf. Gita, 18.44)--not business, which Srila

Prabhupada often even discouraged.

 

MDd