Guest guest Posted November 21, 2003 Report Share Posted November 21, 2003 Hare Krishna devotees Although I agree that we should not stop drinking milk, it is often hard to explain this argument to vegans. 2 points to consider: - dont we incur sin for drinking milk. in some ways not disimilar to the variuos ways sin is incurred for the promotion of meat eating (killer, transporter, seller, etc)? Its not exactly the same but the point is that the same cows that we drink milk from are the same cows that will subsequently be killed once they no longer deliver the goods (milk). By drinking this milk we are saying there is nothing wrong with this in many ways - if the milk is coming from such an unholy source i.e the mode of ignorance, surely it is unofferable to Lord Krishna. I mean we are so strict about onion and garlic which is the mode of passion only. Our reason cant be that milk is good and required, many can argue that garlic is also required. We are able to abstain from many food products already, to abstain from one more thing should be no problem for devotees. A small price to pay for the highest gift, is it not. Anyway I just wanted some answers to common questions Kirit >samdas (AT) juno (DOT) com >achintya >To: achintya > MILK >Wed, 19 Nov 2003 20:11:59 -0600 > >Dear Omar, > > Goodness No, Please do not give up milk. It is the most >nutritious and completely balanced food we have. What is happening to the >cows and calf is regrettable but I don't think giving up milk is the >solution. If it is any consolation I want you to know that at least in >ISKCON Gosala mother cow is protected. The rest we should pray harder. > > By the way, " OMAR" is such a wonderful name, please >tell us more about you, is it your birth name ? Which part of the world >do you live in ? How long have you been studding the Vedas? I for one is >very inquisitive to know more about you. Hope this meet you well Ys >Ashokamrita. > Half price modem, FREE connection and one month FREE - click here to sign up to BT Broadband. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2003 Report Share Posted November 21, 2003 The logic used by KP and RVD deifies my comprehension. Who has ever said anything about butchering of cows. Such sinful practices are product of Kali-Yuga. In the past any cows, milk giving or not and the bull were never slaughtered. In a Vedic society there were no such thing as a slaughter house or a butcher shop. The cows after their productive years were allowed to graze in the pastures and die a natural death. They were given the respect and status of a mother. Even today such traditions are still found in India. The modern practice of contaminating the cow with growth hormones and steroids are part of the contamination of the whole food chain, it is only our best guess where such practices will lead to and how will it end. Offering KRSNA with love and devotion MILK and milk products are authorized, it is very regrettable if the same cow later on is sent to the slaughter house by people who do not know what they are doing. Since we do not control many circumstances that surround us all we can do is follow authorities. Sri SUKA, the speaker of SB, use to maintain his body by begging for milk. The LORD of all mercy KRSNACHANDRA is cognizant of our predicament. Ys Ashokamrita. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2003 Report Share Posted November 21, 2003 achintya, samdas@j... wrote: > The logic used by KP and RVD deifies my comprehension. Who has ever said > anything about butchering of cows. Such sinful practices are product of > Kali-Yuga. In the past any cows, milk giving or not and the bull were > never slaughtered. In a Vedic society there were no such thing as a > slaughter house or a butcher shop. You probably weren't paying attention to the thrust of this conversation. What KP and RVD are referring to is not the idealistic Vedic society of yesteryear, but the very real situation today where most sources of milk continue to treat cows in an inhumane way. What RVD and others want us to discuss is, the ethics of accepting milk from farms which only slaughter the cows later once they no longer produce milk. I usually pay more money and buy milk from organic producers. I was always under the impression that these groups did not slaughter the cows after they became unproductive; however, I am going to try to look into this to be certain. Otherwise, I have very few other thoughts on this discussion. Regarding what vegans think about our practices - I am under the impression (and someone correct me if I'm wrong), that milk (like butter, conch shells, cow dung, etc) is one of the substances which is considered unconditionally pure according to Vedic scriptures. I realize that Vegans aren't going to accept such an answer; but at the same time, I don't see that as our weakness. Ultimately, there are some things one simply has to accept from a given authority. It is difficult to have a dialogue with someone who does not accept the same sources of authoritative information. Are we encouraging cow slaughter by buying milk from these farms? I'm not sure. I suspect that these farms would just kill the cows for meat if they were not able to sell their milk. It's possible (and I'm not in a position to say for sure), that buying milk from any source has the effect of delaying that cow's demise, since milk producing cows make money as long as their milk can be sold. However, I'm not offering that as a justification either - only as an additional point that might be considered. This could not have been the first time such questions came up. Does anyone have any Vedabase references to Srila Prabhupada answering such questions? Perhaps having the input of His Divine Grace will help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2003 Report Share Posted November 22, 2003 At 04:19 AM 11/22/2003 +0000, krishna_susarla wrote: I am under the impression (and someone correct me if I'm wrong), that milk (like butter, conch shells, cow dung, etc) is one of the substances which is considered unconditionally pure according to Vedic scriptures. I realize that Vegans aren't going to accept such an answer; but at the same time, I don't see that as our weakness. It's a big weakness if we preach that certain classes should be protected, such as children and cows. Ultimately, there are some things one simply has to accept from a given authority. It is difficult to have a dialogue with someone who does not accept the same sources of authoritative information. What authority? Show me the evidence. Are we encouraging cow slaughter by buying milk from these farms? I'm not sure. I suspect that these farms would just kill the cows for meat if they were not able to sell their milk. It's possible (and I'm not in a position to say for sure), that buying milk from any source has the effect of delaying that cow's demise, since milk producing cows make money as long as their milk can be sold. However, I'm not offering that as a justification either - only as an additional point that might be considered. Sorry, but it sounds like a rather weak rationalization.I am sure that we encourage cow slaughter by buying the cow killers' products. If there's no market for their product, they can't sell it, or they will have to adapt. We need to create a market for real milk, not the fourth-class junk you get at Safeway. Have you had real milk from cows that are protected? There's a big difference, and that's what Krishna likes. And dairy "farmers" kill all their cows at a certain age, or when their production drops by a certain percentage. So when you buy their milk, you are simply showing them that they're doing the right thing. Support cow protection by buying milk from farmers who will never sell their cows for slaughter, ever. If we create the market, the market will respond. Otherwise, all our talk of cow protection and worshiping Gopala Krishna will ring hollow. Do what you must in the meantime, but remember that Srila Prabhupada charged his disciples and their followers with changing the culture. Babhru das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2003 Report Share Posted November 22, 2003 At 06:05 PM 11/21/2003 -0600, samdas (AT) juno (DOT) com wrote: Offering KRSNA with love and devotion MILK and milk products are authorized, it is very regrettable if the same cow later on is sent to the slaughter house by people who do not know what they are doing. Right. Even though we are rewarding them for doing so, we have no responsibility. Since we do not control many circumstances that surround us all we can do is follow authorities. Sri SUKA, the speaker of SB, use to maintain his body by begging for milk. What kind of milk did he beg for, and from whom? The very idea of cow slaughter was so unthinkable that the sages of those days couldn't process the idea. We just shrug it off--"Ah, tough break for the cow. But because I got to set her milk on my altar for a few minutes before pouring it on my Corn Flakes, I'm sure her service to me will benefit her in the future." Not very thoughtful. Bd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2003 Report Share Posted November 22, 2003 achintya, Bill Reed <williamr@h...> wrote: > At 04:19 AM 11/22/2003 +0000, krishna_susarla wrote: > It's a big weakness if we preach that certain classes should be protected, > such as children and cows. Perhaps I should clarify. What I meant is, I don't see it as a weakness in our philosophy. Correctness of Vedic principles is not dependent on the acceptance or lack thereof of anyone. Of course, all living entities deserve protection of some sort. But cows are especially revered. Will Vegans understand this, or are they more likely to criticize us as hypocrites for playing favorites? More probably it will be the latter case. Similarly, we are probably guilty of a double standard for suggesting that women should be protected (implying that they are somehow weaker), that brahmins should be supported by society (religiously-ordained poverty), that brahmins should be respected by other varnas (religious exploitation?), that Kings should protect their subjects (what? no democracy?), and so on and so forth. The list of potential criticisms is endless. While I think it would be useful to communicate their importance to those outside our culture, I don't feel compelled or qualified to change these things so that others can swallow it better. > > Ultimately, there are some things one simply has to accept from a given > > authority. It is difficult to have a dialogue with someone who does not > > accept the same sources of authoritative information. > > What authority? Show me the evidence. Authority = Vedas. Are you requesting the evidence from the Vedas that we should obey the Vedas, or evidence from the Vedas that milk is pure? If the latter, I don't think you are going to find an explicit statement in any of the commonly quoted shrutis. For that matter, I am not aware of any statement in the Vedas that cow dung is pure, although Srila Prabhupada wrote or said this in numerous circumstances. Many of these things seems to be accepted implicitly based on their use in various sacrifices. Similarly, while you might find many prescriptions in shrutis to the effect that ghee should be used in sacrifice, it is unlikely that you will find a recipe defining what ghee is and how it is to be made. Yet, this does not pose a problem for scholars. Not that I am trying to dismiss the question - it's a valid one, I think. I just want to point out that renouncing milk is a bit simplistic of an answer. > >Are we encouraging cow slaughter by buying milk from these farms? I'm > >not sure. I suspect that these farms would just kill the cows for > >meat if they were not able to sell their milk. It's possible (and I'm > >not in a position to say for sure), that buying milk from any source > >has the effect of delaying that cow's demise, since milk producing > >cows make money as long as their milk can be sold. However, I'm not > >offering that as a justification either - only as an additional point > >that might be considered. > > Sorry, but it sounds like a rather weak rationalization. As I mentioned earlier, it was not at attempt at rationalization - only an additional point to be considered. I am sure that we > encourage cow slaughter by buying the cow killers' products. If there's no > market for their product, they can't sell it, or they will have to adapt. By the same logic - if there is a market for cow milk, then the cows will at least be kept alive long enough to produce milk so that the farmers can profit from it. The alternative - where milk is simply given up - leaves cows with only one chance to become profitable to their owners - as meat. > We need to create a market for real milk, not the fourth-class junk you get > at Safeway. I pay more to avoid the fourth-class junk myself. But really, let's look at reality for a moment. How many ISKCON devotees are there in the entire world? 5,000? 10,000? How many more in other societies - maybe the same number? Frankly, I don't see how 10-20,000 devotees spread around the world are going to have the force of economics to create a market for *anything.* And in the meantime, from where should the milk be obtained? Should the abhishekams and morning offerings stop until a more pure source is found? I can't help but note that Srila Prabhupada did not seem to think this needed to happen. Again I must ask, what did His Divine Grace say when pressed with these questions? Mukunda Prabhu brought up an interesting, and very relevant question. If we should give up drinking milk because of the cruelty cows suffer in providing it, then why not also give up living in big cities and having cars? By purchasing cars, we help provide economic incentive for big oil tycoons to torture Bhumi-devi with their oil rigs and oil towers, and further contribute to environmental pollution. Let's apply the standards uniformly. It's only because we are desensitized to this modern lifestyle that we might not immediately see anything cruel about the oil industry. But factually it's in the same category as cattle-ranchers. Have you had real milk from cows that are protected? There's a > big difference, and that's what Krishna likes. I personally try to refrain from speaking on behalf of Lord Krishna, unless I can quote him in some way. No doubt He likes cow-protection; does He like it enough to have us become Vegans and stop offering Him abhishekams and milk sweets until a "purer" source of milk is found? I don't think anyone can answer this question definitively. And dairy "farmers" kill all > their cows at a certain age, or when their production drops by a certain > percentage. So when you buy their milk, you are simply showing them that > they're doing the right thing. I've said it before, and I will do so again. I think this analysis is a bit simplistic. But either way, I agree that it would be better to give business to devotee farmers (if they existed) than to commercial (karmi) dairy farmers. By the way, do you have any practical suggestions for obtaining karma-free milk? I would like to know. Support cow protection by buying milk from > farmers who will never sell their cows for slaughter, ever. This is what I was asking - do you know of any such farms? If you did, I would be happy to create a "Pure Milk FAQ" and have it available on the Achintya website. So far, it seems that we are dealing with the theoretical existence of such things. If we create > the market, the market will respond. Otherwise, all our talk of cow > protection and worshiping Gopala Krishna will ring hollow. Do what you must > in the meantime, but remember that Srila Prabhupada charged his disciples > and their followers with changing the culture. On this we agree. Certainly we should not give up on the ideal because we are forced to compromise. By the way, who is charged with creating these "ideal dairy farms?" I thought New Vrindavan was supposed to be such a community, but I'm not aware that they are producing milk in very large quantities. As an aside, I looked into into some producers of Organic milk. Horizon milk (www.horizonorganic.com) states that they treat their cows with dignity and respect, feed them only 100% vegetarian stuff, and avoid hormones and antibiotics. They also supposedly give them plenty of exercise and fresh air, etc etc. However, they do admit that when cows no longer produce milk, they are sold at an "auction." I somehow doubt that most people buying cows at such auctions want to keep them as pets. Also, be aware that Horizon also makes "organic" eggs. Organic Valley farms (www.organicvalley.com/) is another organic producer of milk. They deny supporting the veal industry in any way. Their cows also get lots of exercise and fresh air, no hormones or antibiotics, are treated with dignity, etc. They claim to be very interested in animal rights and so on. However, they admit that bulls on their farms are raised for beef. At this point, I would very much like to hear about another organic producer who does NOT sell their cows or bulls to slaughterhouses. As far as I'm concerned, money or even an extra trip to an out-of-the- way store won't keep me from buying milk from cruelty-free sources. I just need the info. In fact, I'm quite serious about creating a FAQ listing such sources for the benefit of the devotees, provided that we can share information on this. K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2003 Report Share Posted November 22, 2003 At 10:29 PM 11/22/2003 +0000, krishna_susarla wrote: --- In achintya, Bill Reed <williamr@h...> wrote: > At 04:19 AM 11/22/2003 +0000, krishna_susarla wrote: > It's a big weakness if we preach that certain classes should be protected, > such as children and cows. Perhaps I should clarify. What I meant is, I don't see it as a weakness in our philosophy. Correctness of Vedic principles is not dependent on the acceptance or lack thereof of anyone. The weakness I referred to is preaching one thing and doing another. Preaching about cow protection, which Srila Prabhupada did, and not doing anything to make it possible because it's inconvenient is hypocrisy. The same goes for talking of protecting women and treating them as if they were dogs. The list of potential criticisms is endless. While I think it would be useful to communicate their importance to those outside our culture, I don't feel compelled or qualified to change these things so that others can swallow it better. Who's talking about changing anything except our reluctance to practice what we preach? Authority = Vedas. Are you requesting the evidence from the Vedas that we should obey the Vedas, or evidence from the Vedas that milk is pure? If the latter, I don't think you are going to find an explicit statement in any of the commonly quoted shrutis. For that matter, I am not aware of any statement in the Vedas that cow dung is pure, although Srila Prabhupada wrote or said this in numerous circumstances. Many of these things seems to be accepted implicitly based on their use in various sacrifices. Authority is guru, sadhu, and shastra. Shastra doesn't mean just the Vedas. I'd like some evidence that milk from factory farms which feed their cattle nonsense, pump them full of hormones, and slaughter all their animals is pure in the way milk from protected cows is. I've seen evidence that when ayurveda talks of the benefits of milk, it means milk from protected zebus, which is as different a substance from the milk of exploited Holsteins as is goat's or mare's milk. Not that I am trying to dismiss the question - it's a valid one, I think. I just want to point out that renouncing milk is a bit simplistic of an answer. I have not advocated renouncing milk, just being honest about what we're doing, admitting it's not ideal. What seems simplistic to me is the made-up (as far as I know) assertion that cows and farmers benefit from our offering last-class milk for which we have paid to our Deities (who deserve better anyway). I pay more to avoid the fourth-class junk myself. But really, let's look at reality for a moment. How many ISKCON devotees are there in the entire world? 5,000? 10,000? How many more in other societies - maybe the same number? Frankly, I don't see how 10-20,000 devotees spread around the world are going to have the force of economics to create a market for *anything.* What do you mean by devotees--folks living in or near a temple? Then I'm not one. But what I'm talking about it the power our propaganda could have if we showed an example. Those who have a little peity will be moved, including many vegans. Look at what happened because a dozen people gave up everything to follow Srila Prabhupada in New York City in 1966 And in the meantime, from where should the milk be obtained? Should the abhishekams and morning offerings stop until a more pure source is found? I can't help but note that Srila Prabhupada did not seem to think this needed to happen. Again I must ask, what did His Divine Grace say when pressed with these questions? Ask away. It's not what I have advocated, so I don't have to defend it. Mukunda Prabhu brought up an interesting, and very relevant question. If we should give up drinking milk because of the cruelty cows suffer in providing it, then why not also give up living in big cities and having cars? By purchasing cars, we help provide economic incentive for big oil tycoons to torture Bhumi-devi with their oil rigs and oil towers, and further contribute to environmental pollution. Let's apply the standards uniformly. It's only because we are desensitized to this modern lifestyle that we might not immediately see anything cruel about the oil industry. But factually it's in the same category as cattle-ranchers. Bingo! Do you live in a large air-conditioned house in the city and drive an SUV? Then you're cuplable.. Live simply and simply for Krishna, as Mukunda Datta does, and you're not. I personally try to refrain from speaking on behalf of Lord Krishna, unless I can quote him in some way. No doubt He likes cow-protection; Actually, it's a brahmana's duty to speak on behalf of the Lord. Read the Bhagavatam and any of the literatures of our acharyas that tell of Krishna's life in Vrindavan. He's a Gopala, and their village economy is based on (very) happy cows and their milk, as well as protected, happily engaged oxen. does He like it enough to have us become Vegans and stop offering Him abhishekams and milk sweets until a "purer" source of milk is found? I don't think anyone can answer this question definitively. And I don't need to, since it's not what I have advocated. I do have issues, however, with self-righteous devotees who condemn vegans wholesale, thinking themselves somehow superior. They are just as wrong as the worst vegan fanatics. And dairy "farmers" kill all > their cows at a certain age, or when their production drops by a certain > percentage. So when you buy their milk, you are simply showing them that > they're doing the right thing. I've said it before, and I will do so again. I think this analysis is a bit simplistic. Nope; it's how a market works. Even I know that. As the demand for cruelty-free food increases, so will the supply. Did you know that there was a time not too long ago when you couldn't buy organically grown food except directly from gardeners and farmers? Now it's a big industry. But either way, I agree that it would be better to give business to devotee farmers (if they existed) than to commercial (karmi) dairy farmers. By the way, do you have any practical suggestions for obtaining karma-free milk? I would like to know. Look hard. When I lived in San Diego, I bought my milk from devotees who cared for cows. Their names are Upananda and Sadananda. Here on the Big Island, I buy milk from a devotee who cares single-handedly for several dozen cows. His name is Dayal-chandra das. I don't know where you live, but if you look hard enough, you may be able to find someone with good milk. If you don't look, you won't find them. This is what I was asking - do you know of any such farms? If you did, I would be happy to create a "Pure Milk FAQ" and have it available on the Achintya website. So far, it seems that we are dealing with the theoretical existence of such things. It's not theoretical; it's real. The difference between good milk and commercially processed milk--even organic--is something you'll never forget. Nor will your Deities. Srila Prabhupada charged his disciples and their followers with changing the culture. On this we agree. Certainly we should not give up on the ideal because we are forced to compromise. I don't advocate abandoning the ideal. Rather, I advocate admitting our failure while we actively pursue the ideal By the way, who is charged with creating these "ideal dairy farms?" I thought New Vrindavan was supposed to be such a community, but I'm not aware that they are producing milk in very large quantities. Whoever is interested enough to do the hard work. We should all help them by buying their produce. That means the temples, too. Srila Prabhupada wanted the city temples to help support the farm communities by buying their produce. As an aside, I looked into into some producers of Organic milk. Horizon milk (www.horizonorganic.com) states that they treat their cows with dignity and respect, feed them only 100% vegetarian stuff, and avoid hormones and antibiotics. They also supposedly give them plenty of exercise and fresh air, etc etc. However, they do admit that when cows no longer produce milk, they are sold at an "auction." I somehow doubt that most people buying cows at such auctions want to keep them as pets. Also, be aware that Horizon also makes "organic" eggs. Yes, this a nice company as far as it goes. Organic Valley farms (www.organicvalley.com/) is another organic producer of milk. They deny supporting the veal industry in any way. Their cows also get lots of exercise and fresh air, no hormones or antibiotics, are treated with dignity, etc. They claim to be very interested in animal rights and so on. However, they admit that bulls on their farms are raised for beef. And what about when the cows no longer produce enough for it to make economic sense to keep caring for them? At this point, I would very much like to hear about another organic producer who does NOT sell their cows or bulls to slaughterhouses. As far as I'm concerned, money or even an extra trip to an out-of-the- way store won't keep me from buying milk from cruelty-free sources. I just need the info. In fact, I'm quite serious about creating a FAQ listing such sources for the benefit of the devotees, provided that we can share information on this. Go for it! This would be a wonderful service. Babhu das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 Thank you all for your answers on this matter. Pleas continue your debates on this subject. As for your questions Ashokamrita: I'm from Israel. My family are secular jews. My name is a Hebrew biblical name which means a sheaf of wheat. I'm sorry if you were expecting a more dramatic meaning. I'm practicing Krishna Consciousness since 1995-6 or so and study the Vedas. Yours: Omer achintya, samdas@j... wrote: > By the way, " OMAR" is such a wonderful name, please > tell us more about you, is it your birth name ? Which part of the world > do you live in ? How long have you been studding the Vedas? I for one is > very inquisitive to know more about you. Hope this meet you well Ys > Ashokamrita. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 achintya, Bill Reed <williamr@h...> wrote: > Authority is guru, sadhu, and shastra. Shastra doesn't mean just the Vedas. > I'd like some evidence that milk from factory farms which feed their cattle > nonsense, pump them full of hormones, and slaughter all their animals is > pure in the way milk from protected cows is. I don't agree that shaastra means anything other than scripture (Vedas, Puraanas, etc). However, that is another argument. If you will accept guru and saadhu as authorities on par with shaastra, then it's only reasonable to look at what Srila Prabhupada allowed during his time here. Did he allow offering of milk sweets and abhishekams to take place in his big-city temples? If he did, then his followers almost certainly were using the fourth-class milk you just condemned. In that case, we must conclude one of two things: 1) Srila Prabhupada allowed impure things to be offered to the Deities 2) Srila Prabhupada considered the milk pure, though he still did not approve of the means by which it was obtained I doubt that #1 is a reasonable conclusion. Does it make sense that a spiritual master would allow the Deities to be bathed in impure substances? That's too far fetched. > And I don't need to, since it's not what I have advocated. I do have > issues, however, with self-righteous devotees who condemn vegans wholesale, > thinking themselves somehow superior. They are just as wrong as the worst > vegan fanatics. Ahh, I think I see where you are coming from with this. Personally I have no problems with vegans or veganism. On the contrary, I admire them their convictions, and I usually depend on specialized vegan stores to obtain some of the ingredients I need. Back in my college days we had a vegan acquaintance who came to the temple from time to time, though she was ultimately not too happy with us, since we weren't vegans. Then again, she was also into a lot of illicit sex, so I don't think any of us lost any sleep over it either. > Look hard. When I lived in San Diego, I bought my milk from devotees who > cared for cows. Their names are Upananda and Sadananda. Here on the Big > Island, I buy milk from a devotee who cares single-handedly for several > dozen cows. His name is Dayal-chandra das. I don't know where you live, but > if you look hard enough, you may be able to find someone with good milk. If > you don't look, you won't find them. I live in the Lone Star state. I have primarily looked in specialty stores within the city. The nearest farm is at least one hour or more away and is not likely (especially in this region) to to the kind of enlightened philosophy I would require in order to feel guilt-free. In general, it's only in the big cities where you can find the kind of liberal-minded individuals who might agree with us. Even then, the best I have been able to do so far is Horizon and Organic Valley milk. But I would be happy to compile a list of karma-free milk sources if everyone including yourself would like to furnish contact information: phone/address/email/website or whatever you have. Even if it just amounts to a few local contacts in specific areas, it is still better than nothing. Can you, for example, provide me with the contact info for Upananda, Sadananda, and Dayal-Chandra? That would be a start. > I don't advocate abandoning the ideal. Rather, I advocate admitting our > failure while we actively pursue the ideal Then there is no real difference of opinion here. I think the milk offerings should go on, but I don't think we should be complacent with current methods of obtaining it. For starters, we can ask our temples to switch to organic milk only. This will take care of the problem of antibiotics, artificial hormones, etc. They may object on the basis that it is more expensive - but I think we all agree that it is worth it. But even this still won't fix the problem of cow slaughter, since even these organic companies sell cows indiscriminately when they no longer produce milk. > >Organic Valley farms (www.organicvalley.com/) is another organic > >producer of milk. They deny supporting the veal industry in any way. > >Their cows also get lots of exercise and fresh air, no hormones or > >antibiotics, are treated with dignity, etc. They claim to be very > >interested in animal rights and so on. However, they admit that bulls > >on their farms are raised for beef. > > And what about when the cows no longer produce enough for it to make > economic sense to keep caring for them? My sense of cynicism tells me they probably sell those to slaughterhouses - and hence I do not even consider Organic sources to be ideal. If you would like to write a short piece on the evils of the modern milk industry, I could format it into HTML and use it as a segue into a list of guilt-free milk sources for the benefit of the list members. Please, anyone who is reading this - please take this as an open invitiation to submit to me (preferably via e-mail at achintya- owner) any sources from which one can obtain guilt- free milk. Such sources should NOT use artificial hormones, antibiotics, or nonvegetarian feeds for their cows. Nor should they sell their cows away when they no longer produce milk; no should they sell away calves or bulls. Please provide as much contact information as possible. Even if we can build up a list of local farms who don't sell cows into slaughter (whether they are devotee or nondevotee farms), this will be a tremendous improvement. yours, K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 At 11:00 PM 11/23/2003 +0000, krishna_susarla wrote: If you will accept guru and saadhu as authorities on par with shaastra, then it's only reasonable to look at what Srila Prabhupada allowed during his time here. Did he allow offering of milk sweets and abhishekams to take place in his big-city temples? If he did, then his followers almost certainly were using the fourth-class milk you just condemned. In that case, we must conclude one of two things: 1) Srila Prabhupada allowed impure things to be offered to the Deities 2) Srila Prabhupada considered the milk pure, though he still did not approve of the means by which it was obtained I doubt that #1 is a reasonable conclusion. Does it make sense that a spiritual master would allow the Deities to be bathed in impure substances? That's too far fetched. I think this is a false dichotomy. I think there's a difference between what he allowed and what he wanted. We all seem too inclined to try to figure out what we can get away with. When asked about the fish oil in American milk, Srila Prabhupada shrugged it off with a remark to the effect that everything is contaminated today, as I remember. I live in the Lone Star state. I have primarily looked in specialty stores within the city. The nearest farm is at least one hour or more away and is not likely (especially in this region) to to the kind of enlightened philosophy I would require in order to feel guilt-free. In general, it's only in the big cities where you can find the kind of liberal-minded individuals who might agree with us. Even then, the best I have been able to do so far is Horizon and Organic Valley milk. It most likely requires networking beyond stores. If you ask around, you may find folks whose dairies operate under less-objectionable policies. Then there is no real difference of opinion here. I think the milk offerings should go on, but I don't think we should be complacent with current methods of obtaining it. Bingo! For starters, we can ask our temples to switch to organic milk only. This will take care of the problem of antibiotics, artificial hormones, etc. They may object on the basis that it is more expensive - but I think we all agree that it is worth it. But even this still won't fix the problem of cow slaughter, since even these organic companies sell cows indiscriminately when they no longer produce milk. If the devotees who support the temples make donations earmarked for higher-quality milk, and if the temples are actually accountable (I realize that's likely to be a big stretch), we may see some change. If you would like to write a short piece on the evils of the modern milk industry, I could format it into HTML and use it as a segue into a list of guilt-free milk sources for the benefit of the list members. That would have to go on a rather long list. It would require fresh research, and I'm suffering the end-of-semester crunch for the next few weeks. Babhru das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2003 Report Share Posted November 25, 2003 On Sun, 23 Nov 2003, krishna_susarla wrote: (Babhru prabhu said) > > And what about when the cows no longer produce enough for it to > > make economic sense to keep caring for them? > > My sense of cynicism tells me they probably sell those to > slaughterhouses - and hence I do not even consider Organic sources to > be ideal. One devotee family I know owns mango orchards in Gujarat, and also some cows. The patriarch of that family admitted it took some difficulty to stop his brother from selling off a bull calf (since people now prefer tractors)--even though they knew the helpless thing would probably be slaughtered. Even in India, people aren't ideal anymore, largely due to the introduction of various unscrupulous techno-economic practices over the last couple centuries. That said, Gujarat still has more goshalas and panjrapoles than all the regions in India. Again, though, there isn't any really sustainable solution to such problems except the socio-economic ideal of simple living and high thinking, which puts human activities into maximum harmony with the laws of nature--laws Krsna expects us to respect practically. Here's how Srila Prabhupada comments on "nanda-gopa-kumaraya govindaya namo namah" (Srimad Bhagavatam, 1.8.21): "His pastimes with Nanda and Yasoda and His pastimes with the cowherd men and especially with the cowherd boys and the cows have caused Him to be known as Govinda. Lord Krsna as Govinda is more inclined to the brahmanas and the cows, indicating thereby that human prosperity depends more on these two items, namely brahminical culture and cow protection. Lord Krsna is never satisfied where these are lacking." MDd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2003 Report Share Posted November 25, 2003 This could not have been the first time such questions came up. Does anyone have any Vedabase references to Srila Prabhupada answering such questions? Perhaps having the input of His Divine Grace will help. I recall reading about this in the 'Letter' section of an old Back To Godhead magazine. A comment from Prabhupada was included there, something to the likes of "we have no other choice but to offer Krishna this Kali-yuga milk." I think Prabhupada was aware of the problems regarding inhumane treatment of cows since a large part of his preaching was against animal slaughter in general. I will try to look up that old BTG and provide the exact quote. Haribol, Gaura ===== -- Gour Govinda Katha - gourgovindakatha/ Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2003 Report Share Posted November 27, 2003 Hare Krishna. First let me introduce myself since it's been a few years since I've written here. I've been chanting Hare Krishna for a little over 8 years. This past summer I was given Harinam diksa by Bhaktimarga Swami. I earn my living collecting fines from soil and groundwater polluters. I'm married with three children (all girls) and live 12 miles from Gita-nagari. I became a vegetarian back in January 2001, and after a year of that I was a vegan for a year. I'm finding this milk discussion very interesting. I am fortunate enough to be able to buy a gallon a week from a devotee family with a cow. I also buy a half gallon a week of organic milk. Some other dairy products I sometimes buy are regular, supermarket, non-organic varieties, but I will always pay more for protected or organic if it's available. Actually almost all the bhoga I buy is organic; even though I can't really afford it, I consider it very important. I find it interesting that the devotee family with the cow sells their milk for $3/gallon because that's all the devotee community will pay. I insisted on paying more, but they would only take $5. I wanted to pay between $8 and $10 for a gallon, but it was awkward, and I had to convince them to take $5. I noticed that regular supermarket milk costs $3 per gallon, and apparently that's why the local devotees will only pay that much. Personally I consider protected cow's milk much more valuable, and I want to help pay for the protection. My family recently moved to our house on 5 acres, and we're planning on getting a cow (and a few sheep and a goat) next year. I think it might be best to start with a calf, so it'll probably be a few years until we start milking. With regard to the purity of material substances, it's my understanding that they're all impure until they're used in Krishna's service. Krishna says that if we eat food not offered in sacrifice, we're eating only sin. So it might be even more accurate to say that the bhoga is pure - pure sin. I offer Krishna milk, the best I can, be it protected cow milk, organic, or even regular store milk if that's all I can get. Sometimes I offer milk because I think Krishna wants it, and sometimes it seems more like it's because I want it myself, with Krishna's sanction. I definitely have room to improve as a devotee of Krishna. Whatever the reason, I would have a very hard time going back to being a vegan. Philosophically, I don't believe vegan is better. The cow is our mother. It's right and natural to drink the mother's milk. If we cannot save our mother from death, at least we can honor her love for us through her milk. Actually I believe offering the cows milk is the only way to really save her from death. Of course her body dies, but she becomes Krishna's devotee and Krishna protects her soul. I am not an expert on sastra, and I don't know that I could convince anyone that I know the truth, but I believe that the cows benefit from having their milk offered to Krishna. I think it's an awesome benediction for them, and for me too. Krishna knows what's in everyone's heart. Many farmers mean well but are ignorant. The cows love us and give us their milk, in spite of the farmer's karmi mentality. The devotee wants to offer something to Krishna. Actually I think even the farmer gets some good results from the devotees offering his cows' milk to Krishna. Krishna sees the good in things. What did he do with Putana? If somehow someone does something for Krishna, even accidentally or without his knowledge, that person is so fortunate. Someday they'll rejoice in Krishna's holy name. Hare Krishna Pandu das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2003 Report Share Posted November 27, 2003 Correction: Vegetarian since 1991, not 2001. > > Hare Krishna. First let me introduce myself since it's been a few years > since I've written here. I've been chanting Hare Krishna for a little > over > 8 years. This past summer I was given Harinam diksa by Bhaktimarga Swami. > I earn my living collecting fines from soil and groundwater polluters. > I'm > married with three children (all girls) and live 12 miles from Gita- > nagari. > I became a vegetarian back in January 2001, and after a year of that I was > a > vegan for a year. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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