Lord Vishnu and Lord Shiva

[Ravilochana das]

Could it be that Shiva is an expansion of Lord Krsna, similar to the way that narayan is an expansion?

Why else would he have his own spiritual abode in the spiritual world, (or on the border of the spiritual world.)

I don't know and am sincerely asking. I wanted to start a new thread about this, but it kind of fits in this thread.

[sterlin]

but it was shiva who also gave krishna the boon to defeat his enemies, i shaivities dont mis quote anything, lord vishnu,shiva and bramha are the same they are all diffferent manifestations of the paramatma. why cant u ignorant people realize this i guess its because we live in the kal yug. but u are a fool to down grade shiva when u reach by krishna he would say u are the real mayavadi.

[jivasonic]

There are two personalities in the Universe that possess the soul of Ishvara - Krishna and Shiva, Shiva an emanation of Krishna but also the soul of Ishvara, makes these two personalities of the same person! Brahma is terminus, not the soul of Ishvara.

[Sadhuman]

Vishnu is the best.We believe our scriptures and shastra,which state that Vishnu is the supreme god,and all other gods are demigods.Krishna is the Supreme lord.Shankara is incorrect.And the Shiva-gita is incorrect.We do not study this scripture because it is incorrect,stating that Shiva is the Supreme Lord.

[Krsnadevotee]

 

achintya, "sumeet1981" <sumeet1981> wrote:

> Hare Krishna

>

> Here is a quote from Vishnu Purana (5.33.46)

>

> "yo harih sa sivah saksad yah sivah sa svayam harih

> ye tayor bhedamati sthan narakaya bhave nnarah "

>

> TRANSLATION: Whoever is Lord Hari, He Himself is Lord Shiva indeed.

> Whoever is manifesting as Lord Shiva, He Himself is Lord Hari. Any

> human being who mistakes both the Lords to be different, he/she

> surely goes to hell.

>

> How this is understood in Vaishnava tradition ? Please reply with

> scriptural and acarya commentary support. Anyone knows, how Sridhar

> Swami comments on this verse ?

>

 

Sumeet, I have no commentary on the Vishnu Puraana upon which to base

my response. Anand Karalapakkam (is he here?) is a Sri Vaishnava who

might be more familiar with the text and how Sri Vaishnavas usually

interpret it. However, I can say a few things with the edition I have

(the critical edition published by H.H. Wilson):

 

(1) Shaivites frequently quote verses out of context to establish

that Shiva is absolutely the same as Vishnu. This is no exception.

This chapter describes the battle between Krishna and the thousand-

armed Baanaasura, who was aided by Lord Shiva. The Bhaagavatam

describes that Krishna fought with Shiva before engaging Baanaasura,

and that Shiva was defeated by Him. The Vishnu Puraana agrees with

this account - indeed, in this very chapter the Vishnu Puraana states:

 

harisha.nkarayoryuddhamatiivaasiit sudaaruNam |

chukShubhuH sakalaa lokaaH shastraastraa.nshuprataapitaaH || vp

5.33.22 ||

pralayo 'yamashoShasya jagato nuunamaagataH |

menire tridashaa yatra varttamaanu mahaahave || vp 5.33.23 ||

jR^imbhaNaastreNa govindo jR^imbhayaasaasa sha.nkaram |

tataH praNeshurdaiteyaaH pramathaashcha samantataH || vp 5.33.24 ||

jR^imbhaabhibhuutashcha haro rathopastha upaavishat |

na shashaaka tathaa yoddhu.m kR^iShNenaakliShTakarmmaNaa || vp

5.33.25 ||

 

A fierce combat took place between Hari and Shankara; all the regions

shook, scorched by their flaming weapons, and the celestials felt

assured that the end of the universe was at hand. Govinda, with the

weapon of yawning set Shankara a-gape; and then the demons and the

demigods attendant upon Shiva were destroyed on every side; for Hara,

overcome with incessant gaping, sat down in his car, and was unable

longer to contend with Krishna, Whom no acts affect. (viShNu puraaNa

5.33.22-25)

 

>From this account, several questions naturally arise:

 

a) If Vishnu Puraana says that Krishna and Shiva are the same Supreme

Personality of Godhead, then why is the Lord fighting with Himself?

 

b) If Vishnu Puraana says that Krishna and Shiva are the same Supreme

Personality of Godhead, why does it say that Krishna defeated Shiva,

making Shiva vulnerable to Krishna's "yawning weapon?"

 

c) If Vishnu Puraana says that Krishna and Shiva are the same Supreme

Personality of Godhead, why does it describe Krishna only as one whom

no karma affects, in contrast to Shiva for whom no such description

is given, and who fell victim to Krishna's yawning weapon? Two things

which are the same must have the same properties; this is simple

logic.

 

d) Baanaasura requested the boon of Shiva to fight with an opponent

worthy of his newly acquired power (the thousand arms given by

Shiva). If Shiva is the same as Krishna, then why didn't Shiva

himself offer Baana that fight, instead of cursing him that Krishna

would do so later instead?

 

If Krishna = Shiva, and this is really the conclusion of the Vishnu

Puraana, then the Shaivites should have perfectly logical

explanations for the above discrepancies. Try asking them about them.

If my past experience is at all predictive, then I guarantee you that

any answer you receive by the internet Shaivites to these very

logical and appropriate questions will be something to the effect

that you are a fanatic for daring to disagree with them.

 

(2) The verse you quoted is not to be found in the critical edition

of the Vishnu Puraana which I have. However, scanning back and forth,

I did find a similar verse which yours might be an alternate version

of. This verse is spoken by Lord Krishna to Lord Shiva at the

conclusion of the chapter. Here it is:

 

yuShmaddattavaro baaNo jiivataameSha shankara |

tvadavaakyagauravaadetanmayaa chakra.m nivattitam || vp 5.33.46 ||

tvayaa yadbhaya.m datta.m taddattamakhila.m mayaa |

matto 'vibhinnamaatmaana.m drShtumarhasi shankara || vp 5.33.47 ||

yo 'ha.m sa tva.m jagachcheda.m sadevaasuramaanuSham |

avidhyaamohitaatmaanaH puruShaa bhinnadarshinaH || vp 5.33.48 ||

 

Since you, Shankara, have given a boon unto Baana, let him live, from

respect to your promises, my discus is arrested: the assurance of

safety granted by you is granted also by me. You are fit to apprehend

that you are not distinct from me. That which I am, thou art; and

that also is this world, with its gods, demons, and mankind. Men

contemplate distinctions, because thy are stupified by ignorance.

(viShNu puraaNa 5.33.46-48)

 

Now, call me crazy, but looking at this verse as it is written, and

within the context in which it is found, it seems quite obvious that

this is not a specific statement of identity between Vishnu and

Shiva. Rather, it is a statement of the general "oneness" of things,

from which the "oneness" of Vishnu and Shiva is also understood.

There is a place in achintya bedha abedha for some sense

of "oneness." One could argue however, that the "oneness" spoken of

here is kevalaadvaita. However, I do not wish to get into that here,

as that is by no means obvious, and in fact it can be defeated with

many logical and shaastric arguments.

 

The point here is that Krishna is NOT telling Shiva that they are the

same Supreme Lord - rather, He is clearly telling him that there is

oneness between them just as there is oneness between Himself and

this world, the gods, demons, etc.

 

Thus, if Shaivites use this verse to say that one can worship Shiva

instead of Krishna because they are "one," then by the same logic,

they must conceed that one can also worship this world, other gods,

or even demons, who are also included in the list of things which

are "one." Will they accept it? I do not think so.

 

In my experience, Shaivites try to prove unsuccessfully that Vishnu

and Shiva are the same Deity. When this fails, they then try to to

give the same argument by using Advaita philosophy - Vishnu and Shiva

are the same because everything is the same. When they do that, you

can simply revert to anti-Advaita logic to refute them.

 

yours,

 

K

 

Because here we have to understand,the issue is that Sri Krsna has the same impersonal form as Lord Siva,as it is stated in the Srimad Bhagavatam,and other scriptures.Only the personal form of the Lord is different.This is where the confusion arises.That is why the Lord always describes himself as "the One" in all of His scriptures.

[divineindian]

1. First of all, there is ONLY one GOD in the whole Universe.......Hindus call Him "Parameswaran/Iswaran/Mahadevan" who is nothing but SHIVA, the "Brahmman(not Brahma)" or "ParaBrahmmam". Others are Manifestations of the GOD only. Vishnu or Brahma are ONLY Lords and NOT God. Vishnu is one of the three LORDs such as "Brahma, Vishnu and Rudra" directed by HIM(SHIVA) to do the following act respectively - Creation, Protection and Destruction.

Other Religions named the same GOD (SHIVA) as "ALLAH" in Islam, "Karthar" in Christianity, etc. All these denotes HIM(Shiva) only.

(2) Lord Vishnu is the Father of Lord Brahma, but Lord Brahma was very egoistic and tried to take quarrel with his own father Lord Vishnu asking him "I am the Creator; So, I am supreme". Lord Vishnu rightly said to Lord Brahma "Hey, Brahma....there is ONE who is the "ParaBrahmmam" which is SUPREME and advised NOT to have unnecessary ego. Bu, Lord Brahma continued to quarrel. Then, appeared the God Shiva and told Lord Brahma not to blabber any more. But, Brahma did not heed. Then, GOD Shiva suggested to both Lord Vishnu and Brahma to accept a challenge - to find the HEAD of the God Shiva for Brahma and to find the feet of God Shiva for Lord Vishnu. The Lord Vishnu very well knows that he will not be able to find Shiva's feet, but just for competition-purpose, Vishnu accepted. The Lord Brahma readily accepted the challenge since he thought that he is supreme and he would find Vishnu's head so easily. But, alas, he could not. Neither Lord Vishnu. Thereafter, due to this, Lord Brahma got Shiva's curse while Vishnu accepted his inability. If we go the details, it would be a big story.

(3) Actually, the term "tat" refers to "the GOD ie. ParaBrahmmam or Brahmman. The Supreme is Shiva and HE was originally existed. Then, out of His own desire, He wanted to create the Universe. So, he created "VIRAT" who is nothing but "MAYA (Illusion)" or "SAKTHI" or "PARASAKTHI" or "FEMALE POWER". So, for all the wordly and materialistic actions, this Maya or Sakthi was responsible and instrumental. HE gave prominent place for this SAKTHI by giving his HALF. That is how, HE (Shiva) is called "Ardhanareeswarar(both male and female)".

　

(4) One Another important thing which many scholars or Mahans did not tell explicitly to the outside world. What is that? Lord VISHNU is NOTHING but the manifested PURUSHA ROOPAM (Male form) of SAKTHI (who is the best half of MAYA). Anyone can understand that this is true due to the following examples/instances.

(a) Lord IYYAPPA (Sabari Malai vasan) was born for the couple of "HE(Shiva)" and "Vishnu(Mohini Avataram)".

(b) Wherever you go to any Vishnu temple, the Battacharya gives only KUMKUM(red powder). How the kumkum is given for the Male-lord? Because, Vishnu is the male-manifestation of Female Lord SAKTHI who herself is the better-half of HIM(Shiva).

© The Viashnavits ( who worship Vishnu) always bear a religious sign on their head which looks like "three lines(namam). This is nothing but the weapon (three spiked ThriSool) in the hands of HIM and Sakthi.

(d) Vishnu is the ruling Lord for "Kanya Rasi(VIRGO)" in astrology. "Kanya Rasi" refers to rasi which denotes "woman". So, this is another proof that Vishnu is basically a female Lord - male-manifestation of female-Lord-Sakthi.

(e) I have many more proof but this will take a long list.

(5) HE (Shiva) Will not take birth like an ordinary human-being since HE is the GOD and Supreme and Para-Brahmmam. But, he directs Lord Vishnu (who is nothing but HIS second-half ) to take several AVATARs in order to make the things right on all occasions. Only if Vishnu can not perform, HE comes out and set things right but HE will never be born as ordinary human-being (sitting in Mother's womb etc) since he is FATHER and MOTHER of all.

(6) On every avatar, Lord Vishnu takes "BLESSINGS" of HIM(Shiva) before he could perform any big act or serve the purpose of Vishnu's avatar. For example, Lord Rama could win against Ravana only after Rama pay tributes to "God Shiva" in Rameswaram (Sri Ramanathan Temple).

(7) After Lord Vishnu (Narasimha Avatar in the form of mix of Lion and humanbeing) killed the "Demon Hiranyakasibu", the Vishnu could not calm himself and Vishnu continue to behave like an animal and there was a great imbroglio prevelant everywhere in the universe and every living-being was freightened. Then, the God (HE, the Shiva) needed to arrive in the form of "SARABESWARAR" to console, passify and control "VISHNU(in the form of LION&Human)". The Vishnu could not supersede HIM and to get controlled by HIM.

(8) HE(Shiva) was the one who gave the supreme weapon "Sudarsha CHAKRAM (Multi-bladed discus)" to Lord Vishnu. Thus, Lord Vishnu could kill demons to save the universe from hardship many a times.

(9) HE(shiva) was the one WHO saved the whole universe from destruction by swallowing the CRUEL-POISON. Vishnu could not save and Vishnu prayed HIM to save, thus saved.

(10) Many people mistakenly refer "Rudra" to "Shiva". Actually, it is not so. The "Rudra" is part of HIM(Shiva) and NOT Shiva himself. Shiva is referred to as "PARAMASHIVA" and "PARABRAHMMAM". Rudra is one of three LORDs such as "Brahma, Vishnu and Rudra" directed by HIM to do the following act respectively - Creation, Protection and Destruction.

(11) Out of three powerful ASTHRAs (missiles) such as (a) Brahma Asthram, (b) Narayana Asthram and © Pasupatha Asthram - only Pasupatha asthram could not be beaten. Other Two asthrams failed and could not win if we read into the Puranas.

(12) In the Vedas, it is clearly brought-out. When, other Lords (not Vishnu or Brahma but Fire, Wind, Water-Rain, etc) was boasting that they are supreme, a light appeared before them. The LIGHT then places a small grass on the floor and asked these boasting Lords to move the grass or destory the grass if anyone of them can. Fire tried to destory the grass, could not do....then Wind tried to kick the grass out of its place but could not even move it little bit.....then other Lords tried their best but could not succeed......then all these Lords asked Lord Vishnu as to WHO is this light? Lord Vishnu said "HE is SUPREME BAHMMAN, Shiva". These lords then bowed before HIM and got HIS blessings. This way, the GOD uprooted their egoistic nature.

(13) The SIXTH incarnation/Avatar of Lord Vishnu is "Parasuram". The Lord Parasuram learns all his fighting techniques, knowledge of missiles, etc from the GOD (Shiva). HE was the guru for the Vishnu's incarnation.

(14) The form of HIM(Shiva) is "LINGA(m)". The form of LINGA contains Lord Brahma in the base, Lord Vishnu in the middle and the continuous Avudayar (circled like thing) is "SAKTHI(Maya)" and the lingam itself is HIM(Shiva), the GOD and Supreme.

(15) HE(SHIVA/Iswaran) never vanishes but Lords Vishnu and Brahma vanishes after some time. Vishnu and Brahma comes and goes. How? One thousand yugas make up one savana and Brahma lives for three thousand savanas. This period is known as a trivrita. During each of Vishnu’s days, one Brahma is born and dies. And during each of Shiva’s days, one Vishnu is born and dies.

(16) Does anyone know as to how the name "RAMA" came up? The name "RAMA" refers to "HIM(Shiva)" only. This is unfolded fact. This has been spelt in one of the Upanishads (think it is Mundokopnishad.....). Then, how the name "Rama" is kept for Dasaratha's son? When Dasaratha's eldest son was born, Dasaratha requested his GURU Vashista Rishi to name the baby. Then, Vashistar Rishi by blessing the baby that the baby once grown would be blessed with mighty powers just as what Parameswaran is.....so Rishi named the baby after the name "Rama(parameswaran)". If a son is born to me, I name him as "krishna". Does it mean that my son is "Lord krishna" himself? No. This is the same when Dasaratha's eldest son was named as "Rama". So, whenever anyone chants the name of "RAMA", anyway it ultimately goes and attains HIM(Shiva).

(17) Krishna (another incarnation of Lord Vishnu) himself prays and chanted "SHIVA SAHASRANAMAM" which consists of hymns on SHIVA and HIS different thousand names prayed and chanted by Lord Krishna.

(18) Many demons could not be killed by Lord Vishnu or his incarnation(avatars). Those cases, Only HE, the God(Vishnu) needed to arrive and killed those demons. For example, The Demon "TARAKASURA" could not be killed by Lord Vishnu but by only by SHIVA's SON KARTHIK (Murugan in South). The Karthik was created by Shiva though his 3rd special eye. Shiva and Karthik are one and the same.

(19) HE(Shiva or PARAMESWARAN) resides everywhere and omnipotent. He also resides in every soul of humanbeing in a nutshell in the size of rice grain in the "spiritual Heart(Hirudhayam)". Our physical heart is at left but this spiritual heart is at the right corner. So, "aham Brahmasmi". We ourselves are GODs as the GOD resides in every one of our souls. This is what the GREAT PHILOSOPHER, the Universe ever had, SRI ADI SANKARA who advocated "ADVAITA" which is the ultimate truth/fact.

(20) The so-called Vaishnavits would worship none other than "Lord Vishnu". They would never worship other lords. But, non-vaishnavits would worship even Lord Vishnu for the reason that the Lord Vishnu is part and parcel of HIM (Parameswaran/Mahadevan), the only GOD and HE only created Lord Vishnu as the Male-manifestation of HIS best half MAYA.

I do not want to make this as a big epic-like write-up, so I stop with this. Hence, there are lots of proof and evidence to show that SHIVA/PARAMESWRAN/ISWARAN is the ONLY GOD and HE is Supreme of all and HE is the "BRAHMMAN" and "PARABRAHMMAM". No questions about it.

JAMADAGGNI.

[Gopinath Dasa]

Lord Visnu is is also jnown as Paramatma (supersoul) & we the minute spiritual living entities are known as jivatma. The jivatma originates from the Paramatma & thus has a spiritual relationship with Him. And also to add Lord Visnu is also known as Mukunda, meaning the "awarder of liberation".

 

Lord Siva is the greatest devotee of Lord Visnu (vaisnavanam yatha sambhu). He is never referred to as Paramatma or Mukunda. Lord Siva himself confirms the glories of worshipping Lord Visnu & His devotees in the Gita Mahatmya chapter of the Padma Purana.

 

Once Lord Siva got into trouble with Vrkasura who wanted to test the "head explosion" boon given to himself by Lord Siva himself. It was Lord Visnu, in a guise, who saved him from disaster.

 

Thus Lord Visnu is worshipped as the supreme controller & ultimate authority, and Lord Siva is worshipped as His greatest devotee.