Mayavadis as Mahajanas!

[Guest guest]

Haribol all,

I was reading the Bhagavatam verse below and was surprised to see Prabhupada

call even impersonalists as mahajanas (I'm seeing this favorable comment for

the first time ). But, I have a few questions that I would like learned members

to address. First of all,

Who are the impersonalists that are being talked about?

My understanding is this - these are the original followers of Sankara or the

pure advatins (even before Sankara, I guess), who are great transcendentalists

although having a different angle of vision (as SP puts it in his lectures) of

the absolute truth.

I'm sure these are NOT the modern-day neo-vedantins such as Vivekananda,

Chinmayananda, Ramana Maharishi, Dr. Radhakrishnan, Gandhi, Aurobindo etc., who

although claiming to be advaitins do not exactly follow Sankara's words (atleast

that is my understanding) and blaspheme the Personality of Godhead to the core.

Or, is it possible that there are impersonalists even within the Vaishnavas, who

are not inclined to serving the Supreme Lord, but however understand that

Krishna is the ground of impersonal brahman (BG 14.27) and still want to merge

in to His effulgence (I believe this is one of the 5 types of devotee

liberation).

As you can see, I'm quite confused. Please enlighten. I would like the

discussion to focus on just the questions that have been raised. If someone can

post the sanskrit verse, I'll appreciate.

in your service,

Aravind.

 

TRANSLATION of SB 5.5.2

One can attain the path of liberation from material bondage only by rendering

service to highly advanced spiritual personalities. These personalities are

impersonalists and devotees. Whether one wants to merge into the Lord's

existence or wants to associate with the Personality of Godhead, one should

render service to the mahātmās. For those who are not interested in

such activities, who associate with people fond of women and sex, the path to

hell is wide open. The mahātmās are equipoised. They do not see any

difference between one living entity and another. They are very peaceful and

are fully engaged in devotional service. They are devoid of anger, and they

work for the benefit of everyone. They do not behave in any abominable way.

Such people are known as mahātmās.

PURPORT

The human body is like a junction. One may either take the path of liberation or

the path leading to a hellish condition. How one can take these paths is

described herein. On the path of liberation, one associate; with

mahātmās, and on the path of bondage one associates with those

attached to sense gratification and women. There are two types of

mahātmās — the impersonalist and the devotee. Although their ultimate

goal is different, the process of emancipation is almost the same. Both want

eternal happiness. One seeks happiness in impersonal Brahman, and the other

seeks happiness in the association of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As

described in the first verse: brahma-saukhyam. Brahman means spiritual or

eternal; both the impersonalist and the devotee seek eternal blissful life. In

any case, it is advised that one become perfect. In the words of

Caitanya-caritāmṛta (Madhya 22.87):

asat-sańga-tyāga, — ei vaiṣṇava-ācāra

'strī-sańgī' — eka asādhu, 'kṛṣṇābhakta' āra

To remain unattached to the modes of material nature, one should avoid

associating with those who are asat, materialistic. There are two kinds of

materialists. One is attached to women and sense gratification, and the other

is simply a nondevotee. On the positive side is association with

mahātmās, and on the negative side is the avoidance of nondevotees

and women-hunters.

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Aravind

Hare Krishna.

 

> I was reading the Bhagavatam verse below and was surprised to see

Prabhupada call even impersonalists as mahajanas (I'm seeing this

favorable comment for the first time ).

 

> Who are the impersonalists that are being talked about?

> My understanding is this - these are the original followers of

Sankara or the pure advatins (even before Sankara, I guess), who are

great transcendentalists although having a different angle of vision

(as SP puts it in his lectures) of the absolute truth.

> I'm sure these are NOT the modern-day neo-vedantins such as

Vivekananda, Chinmayananda, Ramana Maharishi, Dr. Radhakrishnan,

Gandhi, Aurobindo etc., who although claiming to be advaitins do not

exactly follow Sankara's words (atleast that is my understanding) and

blaspheme the Personality of Godhead to the core.

 

sriram: From the verse translation and purport, i understand that the

impersonalists being alluded to are those who also engage in

devotional service. Chanting of the holy names is recommended by

Sripada Adi Sankaracharya till one reaches the stage of Ultimate

reality. The transcendentalist referred to in the quoted verse has 2

qualities:

1) He/She understands the transitory/illusory nature of the material

world.

2) He/She accepts the path of devotional service as a path(may not be

a complete path) to self-realization.

 

So, any philospher who fulfils above 2 criteria (not necessarily

follower of Sankara's advaita) can be considered a transcendentalist.

Of the philosphers you quoted:

1) Sri Chinmyananda's mission encourages people in bhakti marga(their

bal vihar program is famous for training children in shlokas).

2) Ramakrishna Math, founded by Swami Vivekananda considers Bhakthi

as a path to liberation (for ordinary mortals).

3) Ramana Maharishi, believes in not requiring to do anything. We

have to be just ourselves. He negates the material existence and

hence fulfils the first criterion , but not the second.

 

The notion of Mayavadis as mahajanas is in consonance with GV

philosophy that Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan are succesively

higher stages of realization. It is hoped that an aspiring

transcendentalist will raise himself to the level of a devotee after

starting on the path of impersonal brahman realization and so

association with Mayavadis is useful to develop detachment.

Thereafter, we have to graduate to the stage of positive attachment

to Krishna.

 

In your service

k.n.sriram

[Guest guest]

Aravind,

 

You are correct in understanding that the impersonalists referred to

here are NOT the modern-day neo-Advaitins (Ramakrishna et. al.) but

rather to the more austere j~naana-yogis spoken of in shaastra who

are endeavoring to merge with the brahmajyoti.

 

The word "mahatsevaaM" is what is being translated by Srila

Prabhupada as "service to the spiritually advanced persons called

mahaatmaas." The verse is saying that, regardless of whether or not

one wants the impersonal liberation or the more desireable goal of

Lord's association, one should render service to the mahaatmaas. This

is true for impersonalists as it is of devotees, for service to a

mahaatma is a better use of one's time than selfish sense-

gratification.

 

It is not clear to me whether or not the impersonalists referred to

are also Vishnu devotees with an impersonalist bent. However, I think

it is important to realize that any genuine yogi who is hankering

after liberation is worthy of respect. This is probably why Srila

Prabhupada includes them in the general category of "mahaajanas."

 

Yet it is also true that, despite great knowledge and great

austerity, maayaavaadi mahaajanas are still offenders at the lotus

feet of the Lord, due to their considering his personal from to be

subordinate to the impersonal conception.

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna

 

My dandvat pranams to everyone here and a very happy new year.

 

sorry for past month i have been very busy because of family

commitments and vacation season. Aravind i shall shortly make a post

on Vedicsociety in continuation to my last one.

 

As for your question over here:

 

1) In Sastra jnana yoga marga aims at realization of self[jivaatman]

in its pristine state free from effects or covering of prakriti. And

on success jnana leads to dhyana yoga[in which highest achievement

is samadhi/kaivalyam]. The pristine state of Jivataman is that its

simply bliss consciousness. This absorption of Self in contemplating

uniterruptedly on its own blissfull nature is what is called

Kaivalyam. A soul in such state is not aware of other jivatamans and

is neither aware of prakriti or all that follows from prakritic

association. Its just "perfectly established" in contemplation on

its own blissfull nature. Vedanta sutra states that this enjoyment

of a mukta of his own Self is brought about by grace of Supreme.

Without His grace Jiva cannot achieve it. Surrendering to Supreme is

what evokes his grace. Krishna is very clear in gita that jiva atman

can cross maya of krishna "only" by surrendering to him. Even in

gita it is stated that without bhakti one cannot achieve this state.

Ramanuja clearly writes in his commenatry on gita 14.26 that Brahman

[Jiva brahman] or Self isn't simply achieved by contemplating or

speculating about difference between Self and inert material nature

but its surrender to Supreme in mood of bhakti that helps a baddha

jiva to overcome gunas of prakriti and attain Self as it is

immutable, blissfull, immortal, beyond the influence of prakriti

through real knowledge of Self. However this bhakti is not Suddha

bhakti since in this case surrender to bhagavan and bhakti bhava

following that surrender is practiced with point of view of gaining

knowledge of atman and finally being established in absorption of

ones consciousness in ones own blissfull nature.

 

So since surrender to Krishna is practised here, these people can be

called mahajans. One category of people surrendering to Krishna are

jigyasu or seekers after knowledge. [Gita 7 chapter] They are equal

to everyone and well wishers to everyone. Free from material taints

and dualities they are established in true knowledge of Self by

grace of krishna. However these people are at a lower stage when

compared to suddha bhaktas who follow the path of Sarangati and are

only content by pleasing krishna without any ulterior motive be it

liberation in form of kaivalyam or any kind of material benefit.

Such people only aim at endless communion with krishna in prema and

are content with that.

 

2) Followers of Sankara ain't true jnanis like the one i was talking

about in point 1. One must remember the scriptural conception of

brahman the impersonal absolute is different from what Sankara's

conception of brahman is. Gaudiyas don't say impersonal absolute is

attributeless or nirvisesa vastu etc....... like Sankarites. Hence

these advaitic followers of Sanakara can never be called mahajans.

Reason being:

 

a) First they don't even understand there object of worship -

Impersonal Brahman as it is explained in scriptures.

 

b) Second they neither understand true nature of Soul. They think it

to be infinite and absolutely identical with Supreme. All this

which is mentioned in Sankara's mayavada is totally

against "basic vedic principles". So how can they ever be

established in true nature of Soul.

 

Its just because of their offences to Supreme Person Vasudeva

that they are not able to understand themselves[jivatman] and

neither impersonal brahman[their object of worship]. This is the

fate of a person who doesn't follows vedic principles. Sometimes

they may talk about bhakti etc.... but bhakti is not merely a

sentiment, goswamis are very clear that bhakti which voilates the

principles of Sastra like pancaratra, upanisads, gita, bhagavata

etc..... is simply disturbance in society. That bhakti is neither

assudha bhakti nor suddha bhakti its "purely disturbance". That is

what Sankaras mayavada has created in society - disturbance a

spiritual disturbance. Time stands as a proof of this.

 

3) So who are these mahajans ? answer comes from bhagavata where it

is said great people like Sukadeva Goswami and Kumars were all

established in Self in its pristine state and then as the atma rama

verse of bhagavata talks about how people established in Self[ atma

rama] are elevated to Krishna consciousness, these people were

elevated to the platform of suddha bhakti by grace of Lord. So those

people who like Sukadeva and Kumars remain situated in knowledge of

Self and are not against basic principles of Vedic Sastra can be

called mahajans and not these mayavadi followers of Sankara

Vedanta or neo vedanta.

 

 

Your Servant Always,

Sumeet.

 

> achintya, Aravind Mohanram

<psuaravind>

> wrote:

> >

> > Haribol all,

> >

> > I was reading the Bhagavatam verse below and was surprised to

see

> Prabhupada call even impersonalists as mahajanas (I'm seeing this

> favorable comment for the first time ). But, I have a few

questions

> that I would like learned members to address. First of all,

> >

> > Who are the impersonalists that are being talked about?

> >