Another instance of discrimination between forms of Krishna

[Guest guest]

http://bhagavatam.net/10/63/38

 

purport: ...Srila Sridhara Svami explains that the term adyah

purusah, "the original purusa," indicates that Lord Krsna expands

Himself as Maha-Visnu, the first of the three purusas who take

charge of cosmic manifestation.......Jiva Gosvami explains the term

turiya (literally "the fourth") by quoting Sridhara Svami's

commentary to the Bhagavatam verse 11.15.16:

 

virat hiranòyagarbhas ca

karanam cety upadhayah

isasya yat tribhir hinam

turiyam tad vidur budhah

 

"The Lord's universal form, His Hiranyagarbha form and the primeval

causal manifestation of material nature are all relative

conceptions, but because the Lord Himself is not covered by these

three, intelligent authorities call Him 'the fourth.' "

 

According to Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti, the word turiya indicates

that the Lord is the fourth member of the quadruple expansion of

Godhead called the Catur-vyuha. In other words, Lord Krsna is

Vasudeva.

[Guest guest]

Saadhuvaad!

 

Beautiful! Ati sundar!

 

Dasanudas

[Guest guest]

http://bhagavatam.net/10/69/45

 

yAnIha vizva-vilayodbhava-vRtti-hetuH

karmANy ananya-viSayANi harIz cakAra

yas tv aGga gAyati zRNoty anumodate vA

bhaktir bhaved bhagavati hy apavarga-mArge

 

Lord Hari is the ultimate cause of universal creation, maintenance

and destruction. My dear King, anyone who chants about, hears about

or simply appreciates the extraordinary activities He performed in

this world, which are impossible to imitate, will surely develop

devotion for the Supreme Lord, the bestower of liberation.

 

PURPORT

 

zrIla VizvanAtha CakravartI has given various meanings for the word

ananya-viSayANi. This term may indicate that the Lord performed

activities in DvArakA that were unusual even for His plenary

expansions, to say nothing of others.

[Guest guest]

this might be another instance:

 

http://bhagavatam.net/10/83/5

 

zrI-RSir uvAca

ity uttamaH zloka-zikhA-maNiM janeSv

abhiSTuvatsv andhaka-kaurava-striyaH

sametya govinda-kathA mitho 'gRnaMs

tri-loka-gItAH zRNu varNayAmi te

 

The great sage zukadeva gosvAmI said: As yudhiSThira and the others

were thus praising Lord kRSNa, the crest jewel of all sublimely

glorified personalities, the women of the andhaka and kaurava clans

met with one another and began discussing topics about govinda that

are sung throughout the three worlds. Please listen as I relate

these to you

[Guest guest]

http://bhagavatam.net/11/16/32

 

ojaH saho balavatAM

karmAhaM viddhi sAtvatAm

sAtvatAM nava-mUrtInAm

Adi-mUrtir ahaM parA

 

Of the powerful I bodily and mental strength, and I am the

devotional activities of My devotees. My devotees worship Me in nine

different forms, among which I am the original and primary vAsudeva

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

In Vedanta Sutra this matter is treated very well:

 

Gopal Tapani Sruti 1.54

 

"Therefore, Krishna alone is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One

should meditate upon Him, glorify Him, serve Him and worship Him. Om

tat sat."

 

Doubt: Must one always worship Lord Hari as Krishna or is it possible

to worship Him in another form also ?

 

The opponent speaks: Because this passage ends the Upanisad the

proper interpretation is the worship of Lord Hari must always be

directed to the form of Lord Krsna alone.

 

Conclusion: In the following words the author of the sütras gives

His

conclusion, where he shows there is no such restrictive rule.

 

"There is no restriction in that regard [worship of Sri hari in form

of Krishna alone]. Because of what is seen there is a seperate fruit,

namely, non-obstruction." [Vedanta Sutra 3.3.43]

 

In this verse Vyasa Deva has set aside view such as Lord Hari is to

be worshipped in form of Sri Krishna alone and not in any other form.

 

VS determines the purport of Vedic literature hence no text in the

entire Vedic literature can be made or interpreted to say that one

must worship Krishna to the exclusion of any other form of Lord Hari.

 

In light of this sutra lets examine SPs sayings:

 

Puport to Gita 18.65

"One should fix his mind on this original form of Godhead, Krsna. He

should not even divert his attention to other forms of the Lord. The

Lord has multi-forms as Visnu, Narayana, Rama, Varaha, etc., but a

devotee should concentrate his mind on the form that was present

before Arjuna."

 

In his purport to Gita 18.64 he writes:

 

"What Krsna is saying in this connection is the most essential part

of knowledge, and it should be carried out not only by Arjuna but by

all living entities."

 

So according to SP this exclusive worship of Krishna in form of

Krishna alone should be done by all living entities.

 

But this is not what Vyas Deva says in Vedanta Sutra and Vedanta

sutra very explicitly and specifically, rejects the idea that Lord

Krishna is to be worshipped in form of Krishna alone and not in any

other form.

 

There are two ways of worshipping one Brahman which manifest itself

is many forms.

 

Common Meditation: [svanistha Devotee]

 

"Only in case of common meditation, the particulars mentioned in each

sakha may be combined, since there is no difference in subject

matter, just as in the case of what is complementary to injunctions."

[Vedanta Sutra 3.3.6]

 

Here attributes of one or more of all forms may be collated in

meditation on any form of Brahman.

 

An example of this is in bhagavata:

 

SB 1.9.24

"May my Lord, who is four-handed and whose beautifully decorated

lotus face, with eyes as red as the rising sun, is smiling, kindly

await me at that moment when I quit this material body."

 

Bhisma asks Lord to take his four handed form.

 

But while worshipping Lord he combines attributes of Sri Krishna with

Narayana.

 

SB 1.9.32

"Bhishmadeva said: Let me now invest my thinking, feeling

and willing,

which were so long engaged in different subjects and occupational

duties, in the all-powerful Lord Krishna. He is always self-

satisfied, but sometimes, being the leader of the devotees, He enjoys

transcendental pleasure by descending on the material world, although

from Him only the material world is created."

 

and then one can see that from SB 1.9.33-42 he worships Lord Narayana

combining all the attributes[including pastimes] of Sri Krishna with

him[Lord Narayana].

 

 

Exclusive Meditation: [Ekatin Devotee]

 

" Certainly not. Because of the differences in devotion. Like

the Parovaréya and others." [ Vedanta Sutra 3.3.8]

 

The difference between devotion of Svanistha and Ekatin is that

Ekantin is fixed on a particular form and he doesn't combines

attributes of other forms of Lord with his devotion for his

particular form. In this way his devotion becomes more intense. It is

intense on account of his focussing all his devotional energy on one

particular form. Whereas devotional energy of Svanistha devotee is

not fixed on any particular form like that of Ekantin.

 

However both achieve the same result as far as Mukti is concerned.

 

This is seen from the bhagavata text where Bhisma after praising four

handed Lord Narayana with attributes and pastimes of Lord Krishna

merges hismelf into absolute existence.

 

SB 1.9.43

"Suta Goswami said: Thus Bhishmadeva merged himself in the Supersoul,

Lord Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, with his mind,

speech, sight and actions, and thus he became silent, and his

breathing stopped."

 

SB 1.9.44

"Knowing that Bhishmadeva had merged into the unlimited

eternity of the Supreme Absolute, all present there became silent

like birds at the end of the day."

 

Now some members here have suggested some texts from different vedic

literature saying that form of Krishna is glorious and beautiful

original and etc.............

 

but look in bhagavata:

 

SB 1.9.40

" Let my mind be fixed upon Lord Krishna, whose motions and smiles

of love attracted the damsels of Vrajadhama [the gopis].

The damsels imitated the characteristic movements of the Lord [after

His disappearance from the rasa dance]."

 

Bhisma is very well aware of Lord Krishnas attributes like his

attractive style of movement and his smiles etc......... which makes

mind of Gopis erupt with madhuraya bhava towards Sri Krishna. He

explicitly mentions this in the verse given above. Despite being

aware of Krishnas sweet and lovely motion, pastimes and smile he

isn't attracted to him in the form of Vraja Gopala in madhuraya

bhava. Krishnas sweetness, beauty etc....... fails to attracts Bhisma

in the way SP mentions above. [sP says: These words stress that one

should concentrate his mind upon Krsna--the very form with two hands

carrying a flute, the bluish boy with a beautiful face and peacock

feathers in His hair. There are descriptions of Krsna found in the

Brahma-samhita and other literatures. One should fix his mind on this

original form of Godhead, Krsna.]

 

Bhisma is mahajan of bhagavata school and he acts simply in the way

his jiva svarupa is. He is doing nothing more than svarupa anukula

bhakti. Despite knowing all glory and beauty and pastimes specific to

Krishna he is simply not attracted.

 

Hanuman was on earth while Sri Krishna performed his pastimes. But

Hanuman never became a part of those and never entered Krishna lila.

However, from Ramayana we know that he was not ready to be out of

Lord Rama's presence and pastimes even for a second. How do you

explain above behavior of an exalted devotee ?

 

Simply as i said earlier:

 

"The very nature of Rasa is that soul is filled with great bliss and

is fully satisfied by following its own nature. Hanuman doesn't

cares about whether he is closer to Sri Rama or mother Sita. Hanuman

is not bothered about sweet pastimes of Sri Krishna no matter

whatever Krishna may do........ because he is fully content with his

own svarupa anukula bhakti to Sri Rama."

 

And then i went ahead and said:

 

"Lord Krishna being perfect and omniscient, why will he imply such

meaning when he clearly knows any given jivatma will follow their

own Svarupa and hence instructing ***people in general*** to worship

His form in exclusion to His other forms is meaningless advice or

instruction."

 

Therefore, repitition of Me and My by Lord krishna actually means

that brahman is to be focused on, is to be worshipped, is to be

loved, is to be offered obesiances. And not that form of Lord Krishna

alone is to be focused on, is to be worshipped, is to be loved, is to

be offered obesiances.

 

This has support in brihad aranyaka 1.4.7

" atmety eva upasita "

" Atman alone should be worshipped. "

 

Here the word "eva" meaning alone or only excludes worship of

anything which is not atman. This is also the view of Vedanta Sutra

3.3.7.

 

And the interpretation that Me and My words mean that Lord Hari is to

be worshipped in form of Krishna alone and not in any other form is

brushed aside by Vedanta Sutra already quoted in the begining.

 

The sutra clearly says there is no restrictive rule like that. Which

means such injunction is not to be seen in sastra.

 

The verses quoted by various devotees here just glorify the form of

Krishna and tells about his exalted attributes. They don't say that

worship krishna alone and not rama, narayana, varaha etc............

 

I still ask any devotee to show me one verse which specifically

mentions:

" That one should only worship Sri Krishna to the exclusion of other

forms."

 

I am asking this because in VS 3.3.7 where opponent quotes Br Up

1.4.7 in support of his claim. He misinterprets that verse to support

his claim and Vyas Deva rebuts it as shown below:

 

" If it be said that word of scripture teaches just contrary, we say

no because there is no specific text to that effect." [VS 3.3.7]

 

Following the example of Vyas Deva I ask you to produce one vedic

text which specifically says: " One should only worship Sri Krishna

to the exclusion of other forms."

 

I repeat all those texts given simply glorify brahman is form of

Krishna and doesn't talk about worshipping brahman as Krishna alone

to the extent of excluding all other forms of brahman.

 

The Vedanta Sutra dealing with topic of Devotional meditation on

various forms of brahman allow for a devotee to choose one particular

form of brahman for meditation and stick to it alone. But at the same

time they:

 

1) Don't recommend any particular form of Lord to be worshipped to

the exclusion of others. The choice of form to be made object of

ekatin bhakti is open to all seekers. Meaning seeker can choose any

form.

 

2) Specifically rules out choosing form of Krishna alone for ekantin

bhakti over all other forms.

 

So conclusion is brahman alone is to be meditated on. Br Up 1.4.7 and

VS 3.3.7. and one can meditate on Lord in way of Svanistha bhakti or

Ekantin bhakti. This is the correct interpretation of gita 18.65

based on Sruti and Brahma Sutra.

 

One should not think that worhsipping Narayana is restricted to dasya

bhava only.

 

Listen to this story:

"This wonderful story involves Kanikannar, a disciple of the Alvar.

Kanikannar provoked the wrath of the local king and got himself

exiled when he refused to restore the king's youthfulness unlike the

devout old lady for whom Kanikannar had obliged. Not wanting to be

separated from his pupil, Alvar went to the temple and declared to

the Lord, ``I am leaving town with Kanikannan, fold Your serpent bed

and follow me.'' Ever waiting to please His devotees, the Lord got up

immediately, folded his ``painnaagap paay'', and went behind the

Alvar. Thus, He came to be known as ``sonna vaNNam seydha perumaaL''.

Then, the story goes, the king apologized to Kanikannar and brought

all three back to Kanchi."

 

the words ``sonna vaNNam seydha perumaaL'' means the Lord who obeyed.

 

Certainly one doesn't commands his master the way this alvar did

assuming devotees of Narayana are attached to him in dasya bhava

only. And Lord Narayana followed his command, remainging true to his

vow that he is always ready to please his devotees. Well this doubt

on rasa and forms of Lord needs another thread. I am soon gonna make

a thread on this. But this is mentioned here as food for thought.

 

 

 

Your Servant Always,

Sumeet.