Guest guest Posted April 6, 2004 Report Share Posted April 6, 2004 thread, that brahminical birth is necessary to have brahminical status, and various other things which are not acceptable to us. < > In Jaiva-dharma, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura is reported to have said that seminal birth in a brahmana family is necessary to take up the activities of a brahmana, such as agnihotra-yagnas, sandhya-vandana, and so on. Although he does say that one needs to undergo the upanayana-saMskAra to be eligible to perform such duties, he still maintains that birth in a brahmana family is necessary for such as well. According to him, even a candala who has purified himself through chanting harinama is still not eligible unless he takes a seminal birth in a brahmana family first. Different editions of Jaiva-dharma are being published so a reference is practically useless. However the edition which I am quoting from is not even in my possession but is from a friend, who tells me it is the edition published by the Madras Gaudiya Math. The quote appears on page 113 of Chapter 6: "One must take birth in a brahmana family to perform yajnas and other such activities, and even one who is born in a brahmana family must be purified by the ceremony of investiture with the sacred thread before he is eligible to perform the duties of a brahmana. Similarly, a candala may have become purified by the chanting of harinama, but he is still not eligible to perform yajnas until he acquires a seminal birth in a brahmana family. However, he can perform the angas of bhakti which are infinitely greater than yajnas." (emphases mine) Haribol, Gaura -- Gour Govinda Katha - gourgovindakatha/Do you ? Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2004 Report Share Posted April 8, 2004 On Tue, 6 Apr 2004, Gaurasundara das wrote: > > In Jaiva-dharma, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura is reported to have > said that seminal birth in a brahmana family is necessary to take up > the activities of a brahmana, such as agnihotra-yagnas, sandhya- > vandana, and so on. Although he does say that one needs to undergo > the upanayana-saMskAra to be eligible to perform such duties, he > still maintains that birth in a brahmana family is necessary for such > as well. According to him, even a candala who has purified himself > through chanting harinama is still not eligible unless he takes a > seminal birth in a brahmana family first. > > Different editions of Jaiva-dharma are being published so a reference is practically useless. However the edition which I am quoting from is not even in my possession but is from a friend, who tells me it is the edition published by the Madras Gaudiya Math. The quote appears on page 113 of Chapter 6: > > "One must take birth in a brahmana family to perform yajnas and other such activities, and even one who is born in a brahmana family must be purified by the ceremony of investiture with the sacred thread before he is eligible to perform the duties of a brahmana. Similarly, a candala may have become purified by the chanting of harinama, but he is still not eligible to perform yajnas until he acquires a seminal birth in a brahmana family. However, he can perform the angas of bhakti which are infinitely greater than yajnas." (emphases mine) > Discounting such notions, which Srila Prabhupada identifies as belonging to caste gosvamis, Prabhupada often cited the opinion of Devahuti (in Srimad-bhagvatam, 3.33.6-7): "To say nothing of the spiritual advancement of persons who see the Supreme Person face to face, even a person born in a family of dog-eaters immediately becomes eligible to perform Vedic sacrifices if he once utters the holy name of the Supreme Personality of Godhead or chants about Him, hears about His pastimes, offers Him obeisances or even remembers Him. "Oh, how glorious are they whose tongues are chanting Your holy name! Even if born in the families of dog-eaters, such persons are worshipable. Persons who chant the holy name of Your Lordship must have executed all kinds of austerities and fire sacrifices and achieved all the good manners of the Aryans. To be chanting the holy name of Your Lordship, they must have bathed at holy places of pilgrimage, studied the Vedas and fulfilled everything required." His purports elaborate further. The statement ascribed above to Thakura Bhaktivinoda, if genuine, probably refers to those of lower birth whose chanting remains offensive. Another way to see it is that if someone is sincerely chanting Hare Krsna, even though imperfectly, that activity itself suggests that he has already undergone lesser, ritualistic, and preliminary activities such as performing Vedic yajnas, in previous lives (cf., Gita, 7.28). MDd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2004 Report Share Posted April 15, 2004 Dear Mukunda Datta das, however, Jaiva-dharma is a major work of Bhaktivinoda Thakura's and not a minor one. It is arguably his magnum opus, so his opinions are worthy of consideration especially since Jaiva-dharma is penned in the form of a novel. Making a case out of "maybes" and "probablys" does not deny that Bhaktivinoda did in fact state that an outcaste is not eligible to perform yajnas etc until he undergoes a seminal birth in a brahmin family, his chanting of the harinama notwithstanding. I think he has made several statements in other place sin his writings too, that state the importance of brahminical birth and other activities. Jai Sri Krishna. achintya, mpt@u... wrote: > His purports elaborate further. The statement ascribed above to Thakura Bhaktivinoda, if genuine, probably refers to those of lower birth whose chanting remains offensive. > > Another way to see it is that if someone is sincerely chanting Hare Krsna, even though imperfectly, that activity itself suggests that he has already undergone lesser, ritualistic, and preliminary activities such as performing Vedic yajnas, in previous lives (cf., Gita, 7.28). > > MDd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 17, 2004 Report Share Posted April 17, 2004 achintya, "mikegrantt" <mikegrantt> wrote: > Dear Mukunda Datta das, > > however, Jaiva-dharma is a major work of Bhaktivinoda Thakura's and > not a minor one. It is arguably his magnum opus, so his opinions are > worthy of consideration especially since Jaiva-dharma is penned in > the form of a novel. I think Mukunda Datta Prabhu's unstated concern was that the selected passages might be interpolated or adulterated in some way. He did bring up several pieces of shaastric evidence that seemed to contradict "Bhaktivinod's" position as described in Jaiva-dharma... how do you reconcile this contradiction? If it isn't an interpolation, then the only reconciliation I could imagine is if we were to read that section the way Rupa-Vilasa Prabhu did. yours, K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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