Rtvik philosophy/Ritvik replies

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Dear Krishna prabhu

PAMHO AGTSP

Thanks for the ritvik bashing. My reply as follows:

 

--- krishna_susarla <krishna_susarla wrote:

 

> I don't see what the problem here is. It isn't your

> job to prove that

> every mental speculation that one can come up with

> is not found in

> any of the millions of lines of scripture. That

> would be absurd.

 

S: How would you know if its not found in the millions of lines of scriptures or

that we are speculating? Have u read all of them or are U speculating on

that?what is your definition of scripture? SB, BG, CC and Gaudiya

siddhanta?atmavan manyate jagat scenario again. Prabhu there is an ocean of

vedic literature and most of them cant be found anyway. So to say that its not

found in the scriptures means its either u have read everything or you are

speculating. I believe it’s the latter and yes I haven’t read it too and that is

where the Guru comes in. He takes the essence and imparts to us. Ritvikism has

to exist for if it doesn’t Srila Prabhupad(SP) would not have introduced it. You

have to understand SP’s position first before commenting on what he said and

what he didn’t. Because to suppress RITVIKism as pure speculation is to say that

SP wasn’t bonafide and he concocted something which derides the scriptures.But

its funny why a saktyavesha avatar will do such a thing? Well I think

we being too comfy infront of our PC have too much time, talking about

something which as explicit as it can be, cant be digested as factual.

 

 

> Rather, the burden of proof is on the challenger to

> show that his

> idea is substantiated by shaastra. There is no

> question of accepting

> post-samadhi ritvik initiation when there is no

> scriptural evidence

> for such an institution. Your friend's belief is

> pure sentiment until

> he can prove otherwise.

 

S: Sentimentality is perceived by you when u deem a fact as null and void.

Ritvikism is in perfect sync with what Prabhupad wanted.I can turn the tables

around and say that Your belief is pure speculation unless proven otherwise by

your good self prabhu.Here is an excerpt and u deduce on who is speculating ..

 

ROOM CONVERSATION. Vrindavana, May 28th, 1977:

 

Satsvarupa Maharaja: "Then our next question concerns

initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you

are no longer with us. We want to know how first and second

initiations will be conducted."

 

Srila Prabhupada: "Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After

this is settled up. I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acarya."

 

Tamala Krsna Maharaja: "Is that called ritvik-acarya?"

 

Srila Prabhupada: "Ritvik. Yes."

 

 

And if u are still not convinced here is a letter by TKG to the GBC on SP’s

final instructions.

 

Letter by Tamal Krishna Goswami to all GBCs and temple presidents, Vrindaban,

India, 9 July, 1977:

"Srila Prabhupada indicated that soon He would appoint some of His senior

disciples to act as ritvik - representative of the acarya, for the purpose of

performing initiations, both first initiation and second..."

"Now that Srila Prabhupada has named these representatives, temple presidents

may henceforward [from now on; from this point forward] send recommendation for

first and second initiation to whichever of these eleven representatives are

nearest their temple. After considering the recommendation, these

representatives may accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of Srila

Prabhupada by giving a spiritual name, or in the case of second initiation, by

chanting on the Gayatri thread, just as Srila Prabhupada has done. The newly

initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

Prabhupada, the above eleven senior devotees acting as his representative. After

the temple president receives a letter from these representatives giving the

spiritual name or the thread, he can perform the fire yajna in the temple as was

being done before."

"Approved: A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami" [signed]

 

This very clearly shows who are actually usurping SP's disciples in ISKCON right

now and the system of diskha as was set up by SP.

 

> It isn't enough to say, "but my guru said so...."

> Well, if your guru

> said it, then where is it in shaastra? If he said it

> but it is not in

> shaastra, or even worse, contradicted by shaastra,

> then the "guru" is

> speculating. If he attributes such ideas to A.C.

> Bhaktivedanta Swami,

> then ask him why he follows a guru who teaches what

> is contradicted

> by shaastra?

 

S: From above i conclude that whatever the Guru says/does and it isn’t supported

by sastra we have to reject that guru rite? Dats great news prabhu cos i found

more reason for you to reject SP!

 

1) He gave disksa using Magnetic tape instead of the traditional gayathri in the

ear = Reject SP

3)He instructed us to chant 16rounds instead of 64 rounds as ordered by Bakthi

Siddhanta. = Reject SP

2) He crossed the ocean as a sanyasi which is forbidden and even travelled by

air. = Reject SP

4)He gave gayathri intiation t o women and performed marriage ceremonies as a

sannyasi. = Reject SP

5) He permitted prabhus and matajis to live together in the temple building=

Reject. SP

6) He also allowed matajis to do arati, lead kirtans and even give classes. =

Reject SP

 

So all these make Prabhupad unfit for being an acharya from your viewpoint as

these were all unprecedented in any sampradaya and in your own words we have to

reject SP as why follow a guru who teaches as contradicted by saastra

right?LOtsa babajis in Vrindavan opposed SP but do u think he cared or even the

disciples for that matter?Srila Prabhupada is the bonfaide acharya and this is

HIS instituition and when he says that u do it we do it , no questions asked and

no sentimentality involved . Whatever the bonafide guru says to his disciples is

as good as sastra and there is nothing in sastra forbidding it! Ritvik priests r

mentioned in the sastra. In the Krsna book and the Bagavatam there are the

brahmin priests and ritviks mentioned . Sridhara Maharaja who was known as

sastra nipuni by Bakthi Siddantha as he too introduced ritvik initiation system

before he left his body.It is also supported by other vasihnava sampradayas too.

So the ritvik system is supported by guru, sastra and

sadhu but sadly its not supported by you.

 

> Unfortunately, it is a fact that too many people are

> all too

> comfortable with following deviant ideas on the

> alleged grounds

> that "Srila Prabhupada said so..." This is

> unfortunate - devotees

> should see the guru as the transparent via medium

> through which

> shaastra is revealed, and not an independent shruti

> unto himself. If

> they were to see properly, they would learn to

> question the

> scriptural basis of things which they think Srila

> Prabhupada said. If

> they did that, they might realize that Srila

> Prabhupada in fact never

> said such things!

 

 

SRila Prabhupad never said such things?? Wow! Dat has to be the punchline of the

day! I quote :

 

Srila Prabhupada says (Letters to Hansadutta Dasa, one of the original 11

"appointed gurus"):

July 10, 1977: "You are a suitable person and you can give initiation to those

that are ready for it. I have selected you among eleven men as 'Ritvik'

representative of the Acharya, to give initiations, both first and second

initiation, on my behalf."

July 31, 1977: "MAKE YOUR OWN FIELD AND CONTINUE TO BE RITVIK AND ACT ON MY

BEHALF"

 

So if are still obstinate and feel that the GBC are right and are running the

show well in ISKCON , (which is a joke!!) and are the esteemed members of your

so called paramara here is more evidence on what SP wanted from their own lips.

 

Hansadutta Dasa:

"It was clear that Srila Prabhupada had officially introduced the concept of

'Ritvik representative of the Acharya' as the arrangement for initiations by his

disciples for the future of ISKCON. Had there been anything more to clarify

certainly Srila Prabhupada would have written another letter to amend what was

already so clear. But he never did, other than reinforce what he had already

written: 'Continue to act as ritvik representative of the Acharya.'"

 

Tamal Krishna Maharaja, one of the original 11 "appointed gurus" (December 3,

1980):

"ACTUALLY PRABHUPADA NEVER APPOINTED ANY GURUS. HE APPOINTED ELEVEN RITVIKS. HE

NEVER APPOINTED THEM GURUS. Myself and the other GBC have done the greatest

disservice to this movement the last three years because we interpreted the

appointment of ritviks as the appointment of gurus."

 

Unprecedented doesn’t equate to unbonafide. The acharya knows what to do , how

to do and when to do. We will not be here if not for SP and at least respect

what he has put forth. He has written in his final will and in his letters on

how ISKCON should be managed. Its sadly not running the way cos of many reasons.

This RITVIK bashing tantamounts to insulting Prabhupad. You, me or anyone can

have their own views bt what SP wanted is explicitly documented and spoken. If u

want to overide his instructions and call it sentimentality do it at your own

peril. But I am afraid I wouldnt be able to keep quiet when u insult my Guru

Maharaj.We are debating on what SP wanted and not what U think he wanted.so pls

give credible quotes from SP. Pls forgive me for any offenses caused for I least

desired to reply to your backlash. Bt dat will just mean dat i dont deserve to

be the servant of Srila Prabhupad.

 

Your servant always

Siva Rajan (Singapore)

 

 

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