Guest guest Posted August 13, 2004 Report Share Posted August 13, 2004 Hare Krishna, This post is addressed to all those who believe that deity form of Lord in the temple is same as Sat Chit Ananda Vigraha of Lord in his transcendental abode which also becomes manifests in this world when he takes avatar. > Krsna's Deity and Krsna not different. > God is not visible to everyone. He is visible -- "Here is God" -- but those > who have not developed the eyes to see God, they think "Here is a doll, and > tese foolish people are worshiping a doll." No. He is God, Krsna. He is > Krsna. This is called arca-vigraha. The points raised above are accepted as basic princples for arca aradhana in both Sri Vaishnava and Gaudiya Sampradyas. However, Madhva and his tattva vadi followers never approve of this. They say that anything made up of matter can never be same as Lord. If any one sees any identity to any extent then he voilates the principle of jada-ishvara bheda i.e. "eternal distinction between Lord and matter". In my opinion the view of madhva is correct. Well one should compare the deity of Krishna with Krishna himself when he descends in his sat chit ananda vigraha. Krishna though he may outwardly seem to be possessing a limited form is actually possessing infinite and all pervading form. Taittairya Sruti is very clear in saying that brahman is truth, knowledge and infinite. Krishna in his avatar displays this: see SB 10.9.13-14 which discusses that Mother yasoda was only able to bind child krishna when krishna willed to be bound by the rope and till he didn't will it to happen no amount of rope could bind him. However a deity form in temple can be easily binded by anything at ones own will. Even an asur can walk into temple and bind Lord. It has front and back, interior and exterior etc....... You can measure it and even break it. Just take any deity and throw it on floor and it will shatter into pieces depending on how powerfully you throw it. Would you still like to continue the believing that it is pure spirit, the transcendental form of Lord ? But yeah try doing this to Krishna is any of his avatar and see what is the result[Everyone can guess it without trying.] So how can deity form of Lord be same as the Lord during His incarnation ? Spirit can never be broken into pieces but take the deity and with proper tools you can break it into as many pieces as you want to. For spirit it is said that: Chapter 2, Verse 23. "The soul can never be cut into pieces by any weapon, nor can he be burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind." Chapter 2, Verse 24. "This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried........." Based on the physical and chemical properties of materials used to make a deity one can try out all of the above mentioned things with a deity namely - you can moisten it with liquids, you can burn it etc..... Therefore, I agree with Madhva that it is important to understand the difference between the adhishThâna (Image) and the âvâhita (invoked Diety), and to keep it in mind at all times. One should worship the image/deity/arca but remember that the idol itself is not Lord himself but through ardent devotion the devotee can invoke the presence of Lord himself in the deity. God is present in everything and his presence can be felt by seeking him out with love. Srutis also say: Aiterya Aranyanka 3.2.3.12: "For the Bahvrikas consider him (the self) in the great hymn (mahad uktha), the Adhvaryus in the sacrificial fire, the Khandogas in the Mahavrata ceremony. Him they see in this earth, in heaven, in the air, in the ether, in the water, in herbs, in trees, in the moon, in the stars, in all beings. Him alone they call Brahman." Svetasvatara Upanishad 2.17 "The Self Luminous Lord, who is in fire, who is in water, who has entered into the whole world, who is in plants, who is in trees to that Lord let there be adoration! Yea, let there be adoration." Therefore the correct way of worship is worshipping Lord as present within the deity made up of material elements and not assuming the deity made up of material elements to be Lord himself. Sometime people say that when you become pure in heart you can see spirit and then you will realize that deity is not made up of matter but it is made up of spirit. But this is wrong belief. Any one no matter how advance he is, if he throws the deity of Lord in the temple on floor it will break. Even he can perform all the tests i have mentioned above on the deity and find that it doesn't possesses qualities of spirit. In that case purity of heart is not the correct criteria on which you can establish that deity is seen as spirit when heart is pure and is seen matter by those whose heart is filled with material thoughts. Actually when heart becomes pure one can feel/percieve the Lord, Sat Chit Ananda vigraha of Lord present ***in*** the deity. And not only in deity but one can see parmesavar as pervading everything in his unmanifest Sat Chit Ananda form. Your Servant Always Sumeet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2004 Report Share Posted August 14, 2004 it is due to ignorance that one sees the deity as different from the lord. not only the deities but even the offerings etc., are spiritual only witout the fault of being material. this is established by the lord in the following verse : brahmarpanam brahma havir brahmagnau brahmana hutam brahmaiva tena gantavyam brahma-karma-samadhina (BG 4.24) even the act of sacrifice is verily vishnu - not only the objects and subject thereof. there are upanishadic statements, i guess taitreya, to substantiate this. the fact that the deity displays apparent material qualities is not an indication of him being matter. to the non-devotees, even the lord appeared to be material in his incarnations. also, the position of sri vaishnavas with respect to archa vigrahas, avataras etc., is significantly different from gaudiya position on that. but that is beside the point. of course, the discussion on archa vigrahas, its types, types of installation are very detailed topics and beyond the scope of this discussion. suffice it to say that we should look upon the deity as the lord and serve him. not look for the lord within the deity - like looking for treasure within a box. achintya, "sumeet1981" <sumeet1981> wrote: > Hare Krishna, > > This post is addressed to all those who believe that deity form of > Lord in the temple is same as Sat Chit Ananda Vigraha of Lord in his > transcendental abode which also becomes manifests in this world when > he takes avatar. > > > Krsna's Deity and Krsna not different. > > > God is not visible to everyone. He is visible -- "Here is God" -- > but those > > who have not developed the eyes to see God, they think "Here is a > doll, and > > tese foolish people are worshiping a doll." No. He is God, Krsna. > He is > > Krsna. This is called arca-vigraha. > > The points raised above are accepted as basic princples for arca > aradhana in both Sri Vaishnava and Gaudiya Sampradyas. However, > Madhva and his tattva vadi followers never approve of this. > > They say that anything made up of matter can never be same as Lord. > If any one sees any identity to any extent then he voilates the > principle of jada-ishvara bheda i.e. "eternal distinction between > Lord and matter". > > In my opinion the view of madhva is correct. > > Well one should compare the deity of Krishna with Krishna himself > when he descends in his sat chit ananda vigraha. Krishna though he > may outwardly seem to be possessing a limited form is actually > possessing infinite and all pervading form. Taittairya Sruti is very > clear in saying that brahman is truth, knowledge and infinite. > > Krishna in his avatar displays this: > see SB 10.9.13-14 which discusses that Mother yasoda was only able to > bind child krishna when krishna willed to be bound by the rope and > till he didn't will it to happen no amount of rope could bind him. > > However a deity form in temple can be easily binded by anything at > ones own will. Even an asur can walk into temple and bind Lord. It > has front and back, interior and exterior etc....... You can measure > it and even break it. Just take any deity and throw it on floor and > it will shatter into pieces depending on how powerfully you throw it. > Would you still like to continue the believing that it is pure > spirit, the transcendental form of Lord ? But yeah try doing this to > Krishna is any of his avatar and see what is the result[Everyone can > guess it without trying.] So how can deity form of Lord be same as > the Lord during His incarnation ? > > Spirit can never be broken into pieces but take the deity and with > proper tools you can break it into as many pieces as you want to. > > For spirit it is said that: > Chapter 2, Verse 23. > "The soul can never be cut into pieces by any weapon, nor can he be > burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind." > > Chapter 2, Verse 24. > "This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be > neither burned nor dried........." > > Based on the physical and chemical properties of materials used to > make a deity one can try out all of the above mentioned things with a > deity namely - you can moisten it with liquids, you can burn it > etc..... > > Therefore, I agree with Madhva that it is important to understand the > difference between the adhishThâna (Image) and the âvâhita > (invoked Diety), and to keep it in mind at all times. One should > worship the image/deity/arca but remember that the idol itself is not > Lord himself but through ardent devotion the devotee can invoke the > presence of Lord himself in the deity. God is present in everything > and his presence can be felt by seeking him out with love. > > Srutis also say: > > Aiterya Aranyanka 3.2.3.12: > "For the Bahvrikas consider him (the self) in the great hymn (mahad > uktha), the Adhvaryus in the sacrificial fire, the Khandogas in the > Mahavrata ceremony. Him they see in this earth, in heaven, in the > air, in the ether, in the water, in herbs, in trees, in the moon, in > the stars, in all beings. Him alone they call Brahman." > > Svetasvatara Upanishad 2.17 > "The Self Luminous Lord, who is in fire, who is in water, who has > entered into the whole world, who is in plants, who is in > trees to that Lord let there be adoration! Yea, let there be > adoration." > > Therefore the correct way of worship is worshipping Lord as present > within the deity made up of material elements and not assuming the > deity made up of material elements to be Lord himself. > > Sometime people say that when you become pure in heart you can see > spirit and then you will realize that deity is not made up of matter > but it is made up of spirit. But this is wrong belief. Any one no > matter how advance he is, if he throws the deity of Lord in the > temple on floor it will break. Even he can perform all the tests i > have mentioned above on the deity and find that it doesn't possesses > qualities of spirit. In that case purity of heart is not the correct > criteria on which you can establish that deity is seen as spirit when > heart is pure and is seen matter by those whose heart is filled with > material thoughts. > > Actually when heart becomes pure one can feel/percieve the Lord, Sat > Chit Ananda vigraha of Lord present ***in*** the deity. And not only > in deity but one can see parmesavar as pervading everything in his > unmanifest Sat Chit Ananda form. > > > Your Servant Always > Sumeet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2004 Report Share Posted August 14, 2004 Sumeet, achintya, "sumeet1981" <sumeet1981> wrote: > You can measure > it and even break it. Just take any deity and throw it on floor and > it will shatter into pieces depending on how powerfully you throw it. I do not discourage doubt or polite challenges. However, for the sake of culture and good taste, I think there are some things that are better not to be spoken of so bluntly. Surely, you can find less direct and less painful ways of describing the above while still making your point. There is no reason to traumatize a people whose historical consciousness is filled with tragedies like this. - K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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