Deity and Bhagavan

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

[Note to Moderator: Please check this revised post. If you see

anything objectionable kindly point it out. Also kindly erase the

previous post.]

 

[To Everyone: I am sorry if my last post offended anyone. At least it

was not my intention to blashpheme Supreme Person or his vaishnava

followers.]

 

This post is addressed to all those who believe that deity form of

Lord in the temple is same as Sat Chit Ananda Vigraha of Lord in his

transcendental abode which also becomes manifests in this world when

he takes avatar.

 

> Krsna's Deity and Krsna not different.

 

> God is not visible to everyone. He is visible -- "Here is God" --

but those

> who have not developed the eyes to see God, they think "Here is a

doll, and

> tese foolish people are worshiping a doll." No. He is God, Krsna.

He is

> Krsna. This is called arca-vigraha.

 

The points raised above are accepted as basic princples for arca

aradhana in both Sri Vaishnava and Gaudiya Sampradyas. However,

Madhva and his tattva vadi followers never approve of this.

 

They say that anything made up of matter can never be same as Lord.

If any one sees any identity to any extent then he voilates the

principle of jada-ishvara bheda i.e. "eternal distinction between

Lord and matter".

 

In my opinion the view of madhva is correct.

 

Well one should compare the deity of Krishna with Krishna himself

when he descends in his sat chit ananda vigraha. Krishna though he

may outwardly seem to be possessing a limited form is actually

possessing infinite and all pervading form. Taittairya Sruti is very

clear in saying that brahman is truth, knowledge and infinite.

 

Krishna in his avatar displays this:

see SB 10.9.13-14 which discusses that Mother yasoda was only able to

bind child krishna when krishna willed to be bound by the rope and

till he didn't will it to happen no amount of rope could bind him.

 

However a deity form in temple can be easily binded by anything at

ones own will. Even an asur can walk into temple and bind Lord as per

his wish. It has front and back, interior and exterior etc....... You

can measure it and even break it. Would you still like to continue

the believing that it is pure spirit, the transcendental form of

Lord ? But yeah can someone bind the form of Krishna in any of his

avatar without Krishna himself willing to get bound. I am sure the

answer is no. So how can deity form of Lord be same as the Lord

during His incarnation ?

 

Spirit can never be broken into pieces but take the deity and with

proper tools one can break it.

 

For spirit it is said that:

Chapter 2, Verse 23.

"The soul can never be cut into pieces by any weapon, nor can he be

burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind."

 

Chapter 2, Verse 24.

"This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be

neither burned nor dried........."

 

Based on the physical and chemical properties of materials used to

make a deity one can try out all of the above mentioned things with a

deity namely - you can moisten it with liquids, you can burn it

etc.....

 

Therefore, I agree with Madhva that it is important to understand the

difference between the adhishThâna (Image) and the âvâhita

(invoked Diety), and to keep it in mind at all times. One should

worship the image/deity/arca but remember that the idol itself is not

Lord himself but through ardent devotion the devotee can invoke the

presence of Lord himself in the deity. God is present in everything

and his presence can be felt by seeking him out with love.

 

Srutis also say:

 

Aiterya Aranyanka 3.2.3.12:

"For the Bahvrikas consider him (the self) in the great hymn (mahad

uktha), the Adhvaryus in the sacrificial fire, the Khandogas in the

Mahavrata ceremony. Him they see in this earth, in heaven, in the

air, in the ether, in the water, in herbs, in trees, in the moon, in

the stars, in all beings. Him alone they call Brahman."

 

Svetasvatara Upanishad 2.17

"The Self Luminous Lord, who is in fire, who is in water, who has

entered into the whole world, who is in plants, who is in

trees to that Lord let there be adoration! Yea, let there be

adoration."

 

Therefore the correct way of worship is worshipping Lord as present

within the deity made up of material elements and not assuming the

deity made up of material elements to be Lord himself.

 

Sometime people say that when you become pure in heart you can see

spirit and then you will realize that deity is not made up of matter

but it is made up of spirit. But this is wrong belief. Any one no

matter how advanced he is, can perform all the tests i have mentioned

above on the deity and find that it doesn't possesses qualities of

spirit. In that case purity of heart is not the correct criteria on

which you can establish that deity is seen as spirit when heart is

pure and is seen matter by those whose heart is filled with material

thoughts.

 

Actually when heart becomes pure one can feel/percieve the Lord, Sat

Chit Ananda vigraha of Lord present ***in*** the deity. And not only

in deity but one can see parmesavar as pervading everything in his

unmanifest Sat Chit Ananda form.

 

 

Your Servant Always

Sumeet.

[Guest guest]

achintya, "v_raja_ram" <v_raja_ram> wrote:

> it is due to ignorance that one sees the deity as different from

the

> lord. not only the deities but even the offerings etc., are

spiritual

> only witout the fault of being material. this is established by the

> lord in the following verse :

>

> brahmarpanam brahma havir

> brahmagnau brahmana hutam

> brahmaiva tena gantavyam

> brahma-karma-samadhina (BG 4.24)

>

> even the act of sacrifice is verily vishnu - not only the objects

and

> subject thereof.

 

I shall look into Madhvas bhashya on the same. and then post it.

 

> there are upanishadic statements, i guess taitreya,

> to substantiate this.

 

Well please quote the relevant Upanisadic authority.

 

> the fact that the deity displays apparent

> material qualities is not an indication of him being matter. to the

> non-devotees, even the lord appeared to be material in his

> incarnations.

 

Look let me re state my arguement. Lord in Vaikuntha is possessed of

Sat Chit Ananda Vigraha which is full of spiritual

effulgence/knowledge. Sandilya Vidya in Chandogya Upanisad calls it

bharupa for this reason.

 

Look at the following verses from Katha Sruti:

2-I-10. "What indeed is here is there; what is there is here again.

Whoso here sees as though different, passes from death to death."

 

2-I-11. "By mind alone is this attainable; there is no difference

here whatsoever. Whoso here sees as though different, passes from

death to death."

 

The first one talks about the fact that there is no difference

between mula rupa of bhagavan in Vaikuntha and his incarnation which

descends in this world. The words "What indeed is here is there; what

is there is here again."

 

Now according to Gaudiya philosophy this mula rupa which is Sat chit

ananda parmesevar not only takes incarnation in the world in His Lila

forms but also in His acrca vigraha form.

 

Following the principle laid in Katha Sruti, there is no difference

between incarnated form and the original one in Vaikuntha.

Consequently both arca and lila forms of bhagavan have to be

identical since both are avatars of bhagavan, and avatras of bhagavan

accroding to Sruti are never different from the original rupa.

 

However in my last post i showed that arca form and lila form are

different from each other.

 

"see SB 10.9.13-14 which discusses that Mother yasoda was only able to

bind child krishna when krishna willed to be bound by the rope and

till he didn't will it to happen no amount of rope could bind him.

 

However a deity form in temple can be easily binded by anything at

ones own will. Even an asur can walk into temple and bind Lord as per

his wish. It has front and back, interior and exterior etc....... You

can measure it and even break it.Would you still like to continue

the believing that it is pure spirit, the transcendental form of

Lord ? But yeah can someone bind the form of Krishna in any of his

avatar without Krishna himself willing to get bound. I am sure the

answer is no. So how can deity form of Lord be same as the Lord

during His incarnation ? "

 

For spirit it is said that:

Chapter 2, Verse 23.

"The soul can never be cut into pieces by any weapon, nor can he be

burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind."

 

Chapter 2, Verse 24.

"This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be

neither burned nor dried........."

 

Based on the physical and chemical properties of materials used to

make a deity one can try out all of the above mentioned things with a

deity namely - you can moisten it with liquids, you can burn it

etc.....

 

But one cannot do this to Lord when he incarnates in His Lila form.

The reason is that he is pure spirit when he descends as Lila murti

and arca is not pure spirit and hence doesn't possess spiritual

qualities.

 

If matter offered to Krishna becomes pure spirit then why does a

sadhak who has realized brahman and is awaiting moksha after death

has to get rid of the gross and subtle body. Now that Sadhak has all

throughout his life 24 X 7 served krishna with his mind,

intelligence, gross body[hands, legs etc....], so both these types of

body though material in nature have been offered to Krishna in his

service, then why not they convert/transform into vissudha sattva and

become body of the mukta. Why mukta has to get rid of these material

things which he had fully utilized in service of bhagavan ?

 

 

 

 

> also, the position of sri vaishnavas with respect to archa

vigrahas,

> avataras etc., is significantly different from gaudiya position on

> that.

 

In Sri Vaishnava philosophy it is said that after proper installation

of deity and implemention of prescribed methods the body of arca is

aprakrta or of nature of vissudha sattva. It is not material.

Gaudiyas too acknowledge this. However, difference lies in the fact

that SVs acknowledge the svarupa of brahman to be different from

vissudha sattva which makes its body while, GVs entertain no

difference between them. But nature of Vissudha Sattva in SV and in

GV is same.

 

> suffice it to say that we should look upon the deity as the lord

and

> serve him. not look for the lord within the deity - like looking

for

> treasure within a box.

 

Well you got to explain away the difference between the lila form and

arca form of Lord before you can say they are same.

 

If arca is really avatar of Bhagavat, then arca has to be same as

lila form. Then why is that two same entities will respond

differently to same tests/criteria they are subjected too.

 

You say breakablity, insolubility, and can be burned or dried

etc....... are apparent limitations of arca avatar of bhagavan, then

why not the same are apparent limitation of lila form ? Recall sruti

says that mula rupa and any avatar rupa are absoultely same. Meaning:

 

Mula rupa = Lila rupa [because Lila rupa is avatar]

 

Now if arca rupa is avatar then,

 

Mula rupa = arca rupa

 

and also, lila rupa = arca rupa.

 

But as i said earlier there is difference between lila and arca forms

which you cannot simply dismiss as apparent limitation of arca rupa,

and building the identity between Mula Rupa and arca rupa, arca rupa

and lila rupa on that premise.

 

 

Between let me bring your attention to another point. When Lord

becomes manifests in a particular entity, then beauty of that entity

is enhanced many times than what it previously ever looked like.

 

Example is:

"While carrying the form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead within

the core of his heart, Vasudeva bore the Lord's transcendentally

illuminating effulgence, and thus he became as bright as the sun. He

was therefore very difficult to see or approach through sensory

perception. Indeed, he was unapproachable and unperceivable even for

such formidable men as Kamsa, and not only for Kamsa but for all

living entities." [sB 10.2.17]

 

Now do you see how does body of vasudeva changes by mere presence of

Lord ***within it***. According to Vaishnava theology the body of

nitya muktas like vasudeva etc... is spiritual in stuff. Even that

spiritual body became very very much enhanced by simple presence of

Bhagavan ***within it.*** Even if someone to say that body of

vasudeva is material, then also this verse describes that body of

Vasudeva became so much more glorious than ever before. The reason

for this is parmesvara has manifested himself within. So no matter

whether a thing is spiritual of material its status is very very much

elevated when Sat Chit Ananda Vigraha of Bhagavan becomes manifest

within it. Here elevation of status of spiritual or material entities

in contact with Bhagavan, doesn't makes them identical with bhagavan.

Vasudeva never became identical with bhagavan, but his status got

elevated because of presence of God.

 

The same reasoning can be applied to Lord ***within*** womb of

devaki.

 

"Because the Supreme Personality of Godhead was within her womb,

Devakî illuminated the entire atmosphere in the place where she

was confined. Seeing her jubilant, pure and smiling, Kamsa

thought, "The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Vishnu, who is now

within her, will kill me. Devakî has never before looked so

brilliant

and jubilant." [sB 10.2.20]

 

It is clearly said "Devakî has never before looked so brilliant

and jubilant." Presence of Sakshat Bhagavan in any entity material or

spiritual will definately elevate the status of that entity manifold,

but one should never take that entity to have become identical with

Bhagavan.

 

It is this thing which happens within the arca of bhagavan too. When

properly installed, take care of and worshipped, Svayam bhagavan is

invoked within the deity and consequently the deity though made up of

material entities, achieves enhanced status. But seeing the arca like

that one should not mistake the arca to be identical with Sat Chit

Ananda Parmesvar who has manifested Himself *** within it *** in

response to love filled heart of a bhakta [Just like one should not

think vasudeva/devaki to be blissfull effulgent brahman seeing their

enhanced status which is actually because of presence of bhagavan in

it].

 

Now this arca in which bhagavan has manifested himself, can still be

broken, bound, burnt etc....... Just like Vasudeva/Devaki in whom

Krishna manifested himself were sitting there bound in chains in

kamsa jail. But recall even devotee of status like yasoda mother

couuldn't bind this same Krishna who manifested himself ***within***

vasudeva/devaki until krishna willed it to happen.

 

Therefore one should never think arca to be identical with bhagavan,

who only manifests His form within arca in response to love call of a

devotee and in doing so elevates the status of that arca.

 

 

Your Servant Always

Sumeet.