Guest guest Posted September 9, 2004 Report Share Posted September 9, 2004 This Year 2004 marks the 108th appearance day Of His divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Dear Vaisnava's of the world Srila Prabhupada has declared so bold Chant Hare Krsna and be happy achintya [achintya] 09 September 2004 01:08 achintya Digest Number 1266 There are 5 messages in this issue. Topics in this digest: 1. Qualification to talk philosophy "sumeet1981" <sumeet1981 2. Madhva, Vyasadeva and Gaudiya Sampradya "sumeet1981" <sumeet1981 3. BHAGAVAD-GITA 13:13 Vijay Sadananda Pai <vijaypai 4. Srila Prabhupada's gift of Krishna consciousness to human society "Bhakti Vikasa Swami" <Bhakti.Vikasa.Swami 5. Lord Krishna lived for 125 Years Aravind Mohanram <psuaravind ______________________ ______________________ Message: 1 Wed, 08 Sep 2004 00:01:46 -0000 "sumeet1981" <sumeet1981 Qualification to talk philosophy hare krishna, traditionally Srutis were never written down on paper but passed on orally and that is why they are called Sruti. There are four stages in sadhana : Sravanna - Studying scriptures. Manana - Trying to understand them as a whole using logic. Nidhidhyasana - Uninterrupted meditation[devotion] on brahman. Darsana - This is where one gets vision of Supreme. Sravana and Manana are aid to nidhidhyasana. and without nidhidhyasana one cannot have darsana and hence no moksha. Now Srutis were passed down from sages to sages, orally. So anyone who was interested in learning them had to go to a sage who will teach it to the student. While teaching the text, meaning of it was also explained so that student may not speculate and any questions a student had were answered. So basically without going to a guru no one could have ever imagined to learn about Brahman. It is said "a non knower of veda cannot know Supreme". Now the source of vedic knowldge were sages, who would communicate the truth orally to their disciples. Hence sravanna and manana without which nidhidhyasana is impossible could not be performed had the student not seeked lotus feet of a guru. In kali yuga srutis were put down in writing for reasons already known. Now following this the meanings of text were also put down in writing by acaryas. Just as Sabda brahman vedas are representation of Supreme so is the bhasya of an acarya repr. of him. So if we possess Gita as it is in our house we actually have krishna and SP in our house. Verse of Gita represents Krishna and words of purport represent SP. Similarly Gita bhasya of ramanuja means we have Krishna and ramanuja with us. So we are always in proximity of our guru. We should not think guru always needs to be physically present before us. Take for example Ramanuja. Who taught him Sruti in the formal and traditional ways ? No one. anyone here familiar with his life knows no one taught him all the upanisads in the traditional way as has been mentioned at the starting. Yamunacarya didn't teach him Srutis. Yet he wrote works like Sri bhasya and Vedartha Sangraha. Are we to reject him saying you never learnt Sruti at Guru's lotus feet so you are unqualified ? He didn't even teach him Gita. Yamuna had left a work on Gita and Ramanuja faithfully followed it while writing bhasya on gita. His Guru was always there with him in form of that work on gita. For his VS bhasya he followed ancient authority called bodhyana. Bodhyana never taught him VS but all that ramanuja did was get his vritti on VS and expound vedanta philosophy accordingly. Ramanuja went to Kashmir from almost the southern most part to find a script of this vritti. That just shows the value of a written text. Infact it is known that ramanuja objected to yadva prakasa explanations of Chandogya and Taittariya without having been taught vishistadvaita or any non advaitic interpretation of the texts formally by a guru. It was considered to be unholy by Yadva but ramanuja was right in his interpretations, though he had no formal training in interpreting those texts in the traditional style, while yadva was famous teacher of advaita in that area. This is what happened: http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/ vaisnava_sampradayas_fs.html "A few days later a second incident occurred. While explaining a verse from the Taittiriya Upanishad beginning with satyam jnanam anantam brahma, Yadava said that Brahman was intelligence, truth, and the infinite. Hearing this explanation, Ramanuja politely added, "Brahman is endowed with the qualities of intelligence, truth, and the infinite- this means that He is not covered by ignorance as are ordinary living entities, He is never untruthful, and His energies are unlimited, not limited. The Supreme Brahman is the reservoir of all good qualities, yet He is superior to those qualities, as the sun globe is superior to sunlight." The agitation which Yadava felt within his mind made his voice tremble. "You young fool!" he shouted. "Your conclusions do not agree with those of Shankara or any of the previous masters! If you are going to persist with this useless talk about a personal God, why come here at all simply to waste my time? Why don't you start your own school and teach whatever you like? Now get out of my classroom immediately!" So you need guru's training to understand Sruti but here you see a person who later became celebrated vedantin contradicting a bonafide persons interpretation even though he lacked proper training in a traditional way. So how to reconcile this ? Answer is look into SP's purports for gita 10.10 and 10.11 10.10 purport "A person may have a bona fide spiritual master and may be attached to a spiritual organization, but still, if he is not intelligent enough to make progress, then Krsna from within gives him instructions so that he may ultimately come to Him without difficulty. The qualification is that a person always engage himself in Krsna consciousness and with love and devotion render all kinds of services. He should perform some sort of work for Krsna, and that work should be with love. If a devotee is intelligent enough, he will make progress on the path of self-realization. If one is sincere and devoted to the activities of devotional service, the Lord gives him a chance to make progress and ultimately attain to Him." 10.11 purport "There are very, very learned scholars who have put forward the philosophy of devotion, but even if a devotee does not take advantage of their literatures or of his spiritual master, if he is sincere in his devotional service he is helped by Krsna Himself within his heart. So the sincere devotee engaged in Krsna consciousness cannot be without knowledge. The only qualification is that one carry out devotional service in full Krsna consciousness. The modern philosophers think that without discriminating one cannot have pure knowledge. For them this answer is given by the Supreme Lord: those who are engaged in pure devotional service, even though they be without sufficient education and even without sufficient knowledge of the Vedic principles, are still helped by the Supreme God, as stated in this verse." And SP is not supporting speculation over here. So the simple point is anyone who has devotion, will have knowledge no matter what. And who has knowledge is qualified though he may not look so according to traditional way. Well this is not to give an impression that yeah i am a perfect devotee so i have knowledge and i am qualified even though i haven't learned Srutis in a traditional way. In cases of people like me one can see it by comparing them with what predecessors like ramanuja and baladeva have written. If asked i am willing to show that those interpretation of Srutis are in line with ramanuja and baladeva and **are not my mental speculation**. Unfortunately i am quite busy this week but sure in near future[most likely coming week or this weekend] i will get back to the topic of arca murti and brahman svarupa. So in short i would just say, we have krishna and guru both in our house in our proximity if we have gita as it is or any other version. One must offer them all respects and in ones heart worship them as if they were physically present. Just become absorbed in reading these texts in mood of absolute self surrender and meaning will gradually manifests itself. When one does this, one will realize how texts from different scriptures are interconnected and will be able to assimilate the truth with utmost ease by grace of guru and bhagavan. Guru is the commentary or purport and vedic verse is krishna. So yeah if one has gita with bonafide vaishnava commentary in house one should never think he lives alone, rather he lives with Vishnu and Sri Guru. This is how one should think. Svetasvatara Up. VI-23: "Only to that seeker who has supreme devotion to God, and an equal degree of devotion to the spiritual teacher, are the truths of vedas revealed." All glories to Sri Sri Guru and Sri Krishna. Your Servant Always, Sumeet. ______________________ ______________________ Message: 2 Wed, 08 Sep 2004 00:23:09 -0000 "sumeet1981" <sumeet1981 Madhva, Vyasadeva and Gaudiya Sampradya Hare krishna A question has been lurking in my mind for long time: 1) Gaudiyas say Madhva met Vyasdeva. 2) Since Madhva preceded whole Gaudiya acarya varga, the only source of this information would be Sumadhva vijyaya. 3) So if gaudiyas accept Madhva-Vyasa meeting on authority of Sumadhva Vijaya then, will gaudiyas also accept madhvas gita bhasya got vyasa's approval on authority of same ? If not then why ? And if yes then whats need for a different bhashya, why not follow Madhva ? http://www.dvaita.org/madhva/AnandaT_1.html "Madhva made two trips to Badarikâshrama, the abode of BâdarâyaNa a.k.a. Veda Vyâsa, and on the first, obtained the imprimatur of BâdarâyaNa Himself for his Bhâshya on the Bhagavad Gita, when the latter made the correction "vakshyâmi leshataH" ("I state infinitesimally"), in place of "vakshyâmi shaktitaH" ("I state as best as I can"). " Your Servant Always, Sumeet. ______________________ ______________________ Message: 3 Wed, 8 Sep 2004 09:00:00 -0500 (CDT) Vijay Sadananda Pai <vijaypai BHAGAVAD-GITA 13:13 BHAGAVAD-GITA 13:13 jneyam yat tat pravaksyami yaj jnatvamrtam asnute anadi mat-param brahma na sat tan nasad ucyate WORD FOR WORD jneyam--the knowable; yat--which; tat--that; pravaksyami--I shall now explain; yat--which; jnatva--knowing; amrtam--nectar; asnute--one tastes; anadi--beginningless; mat-param--subordinate to Me; brahma--spirit; na--neither; sat--cause; tat--that; na--nor; asat--effect; ucyate--is said to be. TRANSLATION I shall now explain the knowable, knowing which you will taste the eternal. Brahman, the spirit, beginningless and subordinate to Me, lies beyond the cause and effect of this material world. PURPORT The Lord has explained the field of activities and the knower of the field. He has also explained the process of knowing the knower of the field of activities. Now He begins to explain the knowable, first the soul and then the Supersoul. By knowledge of the knower, both the soul and the Supersoul, one can relish the nectar of life. As explained in the Second Chapter, the living entity is eternal. This is also confirmed here. There is no specific date at which the jiva was born. Nor can anyone trace out the history of the jivatma's manifestation from the Supreme Lord. Therefore it is beginningless. The Vedic literature confirms this: na jayate mriyate va vipascit (Katha Upanisad 1.2.18). The knower of the body is never born and never dies, and he is full of knowledge. The Supreme Lord as the Supersoul is also stated in the Vedic literature (Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.16) to be pradhana-ksetrajna-patir gunesah, the chief knower of the body and the master of the three modes of material nature. In the smrti it is said, dasa-bhuto harer eva nanyasvaiva kadacana. The living entities are eternally in the service of the Supreme Lord. This is also confirmed by Lord Caitanya in His teachings. Therefore the description of Brahman mentioned in this verse is in relation to the individual soul, and when the word Brahman is applied to the living entity, it is to be understood that he is vijnana-brahma as opposed to ananda-brahma. Ananda-brahma is the Supreme Brahman Personality of Godhead. Copyright 1983 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International. Used with permission. ______________________ ______________________ Message: 4 Wed, 8 Sep 2004 07:05 -0700 "Bhakti Vikasa Swami" <Bhakti.Vikasa.Swami Srila Prabhupada's gift of Krishna consciousness to human society Without Krsna consciousness, happiness is impossible; one may struggle, but one cannot have happiness. We are therefore trying to give human society the opportunity for a life of happiness, good health, peace of mind and all good qualities through God consciousness. ============ REF. SB 10.13.60 ppt ______________________ ______________________ Message: 5 Wed, 8 Sep 2004 15:41:10 -0700 (PDT) Aravind Mohanram <psuaravind Lord Krishna lived for 125 Years Haribol, ISKCON should condemn this language... "Somnath Trust president Keshubhai Patel declared that celebration of Krishna's death will be an annual affair now. We will celebrate the first day of Chaitra every year as Krishna's death anniversary," said secretary of the trust Ashok Sharma. ********************************** Lord Krishna lived for 125 years TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 08, 2004 10:07:31 PM ] RAJKOT: It's now official. The god who took 'avatar' to cleanse the world of sin, gave us the Gita and promised to return whenever evil outweighs the good, had lived 125 years on this earth, much longer than the oldest living man, Fred Hale, who according to the Guinness Book of World Records , is 113! It was on February 18, 3102 BC that Krishna breathed his last on the banks of river Hiran in Prabhas Patan, after living 125 years seven months and six days. He died at 14:27:30 hours, according to a paper presented at a convention that began at Prabhas Patan, close to Somnath, on Tuesday as the country celebrated Krishna's birth. "The finding is based on a number of hints in ancient scriptures. Certain dates related to his life taken from the scriptures were then fed into a software along with Krishna's characteristic traits for an astrological calculation to prepare his 'kundli,'" Swami Gyananand Saraswati, chairperson of the Varanasi-based Adi Jagatguru Shankaracharya Sodh Sansthan told TNN after presenting the paper at the gathering of scholars. "While the 'Vishnu Puran' and the 'Bhagvad Gita' mention that Krishna 'left' Dwarka 36 years after the battle of Mahabharata and was not seen anymore, the 'Matsya Purana' mentions that he was 89 years old when the battle was fought. Then again, the 'Mahabharata' mentions that the Kalyug began the day Krishna 'left' and this year is the 5,106th year of the Kalyug. All these indicators helped us get to the date," said Saraswati. The research was conducted through three months after the Somnath Trust made a formal request. The paper was presented in the presence of a host of scholars including Bhrighu Samhita expert and member of Institute of Future Forecasting Nandkishore Purohit and National Astrological Parishad president Arun Bansal. The paper was accepted by those present at the convention. And, armed with this paper, the trust has now decided to observe for the first time Krishna's death anniversary on April 9, 2005 (the day falls on the first day of the month of Chaitra in the Indian calendar, when Krishna is claimed to have died). "Somnath Trust president Keshubhai Patel declared that celebration of Krishna's death will be an annual affair now. We will celebrate the first day of Chaitra every year as Krishna's death anniversary," said secretary of the trust Ashok Sharma. Aravind Mohanram Ph.D. Candidate Dept. of Mat Sci and Engg., Penn State University, University Park, PA 16801 www.personal.psu.edu/aum105 ______________________ ______________________ Achintya Homepage: achintya DISCLAIMER: All postings appearing on Achintya are the property of their authors, and they may not be cross-posted to other forums without prior approval by said authors. Views expressed in Achintya postings are those of their authors only, and are not necessarily endorsed by the moderator or spiritual leaders of the Gaudiiya school. ------ achintya/ achintya ------ Engen Petroleum Limited, disclaims liability for any loss, damage or expense however caused, arising from the sending, receipt, or use of this e-mail and on any reliance placed upon the information provided through this service and does not guarantee the completeness or accuracy of the information. Please visit www.engen.co.za/content/disclaimer/default.htm to view the full disclaimer. 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