Important Doubt

[Guest guest]

Hello Friends,

 

I have two doubts:

 

1. Do the stories in Puranas get repeated Kalpa after

Kalpa? Is there any Pramana for it. If it was not the

case then Ramayana and Mahabharata and many legends

would be temporary phenomena.

 

2. Other than Lord Krishna, who else are the eternal

beings? Garuda is one, Hanuman is one, Shiva of

course. Can we get a list of those beings who are

eternal other than Krishna/MahaVishnu?

 

Hare Rama,

Subash

 

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[Guest guest]

Good questions. I am replying based on memory, so forgive me for

being vague. Of course, if it matters enough for anyone to challenge

I will try to look for the specific evidence.

 

> 1. Do the stories in Puranas get repeated Kalpa after

> Kalpa? Is there any Pramana for it. If it was not the

> case then Ramayana and Mahabharata and many legends

> would be temporary phenomena.

 

My understanding is yes, these events occur in every Kalpa, possibly

in every cycle of 4 yugas. I'm not sure in either case, and I am not

certain of the specific pramaana either.

 

> 2. Other than Lord Krishna, who else are the eternal

> beings? Garuda is one, Hanuman is one, Shiva of

> course. Can we get a list of those beings who are

> eternal other than Krishna/MahaVishnu?

 

In one sense, all jIvas are eternal, but I think your specific

question is: is there always a Hanumaan, always a Shiva, etc?

 

Based on my recollection of something written in Govinda Bhaashya,

yes there are always demigods Brahmaa, Shiva, Indra, etc. If memory

serves, this is based on the following argument:

 

1: Vedas speak of eternal things.

2: No this is not true, for Vedas speak of Brahmaa, Shiva, Indra, who

though long lived, are mortal. Therefore Vedas speak also of limited

and temporary things.

3: Yes, these bodies inhabited by jIvas are temporary, but there is

always a Brahmaa, always a Shiva, always an Indra, etc in each age

and each universe. Thus, Brahmaa, Shiva, Indra, etc are all eternal.

And thus it is true statement that Vedas speak of eternal things.

 

The above is simplistic and based on my hazy memory. Also, I am not

clear on Hanumaan's position, as Gaudiiyas tend to regard him as an

eternally liberated associated of the Lord, although I'm not even

sure if that is their official view.

[Guest guest]

> 3: Yes, these bodies inhabited by jIvas are temporary, but there is

> always a Brahmaa, always a Shiva, always an Indra, etc in each age

> and each universe. Thus, Brahmaa, Shiva, Indra, etc are all

eternal.

> And thus it is true statement that Vedas speak of eternal things.

 

As far as I know the position of shiva (more accurately sada shiva)

is different from that of the devatas as per gauidiya view. This is

all hearsay but from scholarly devotees and would be happy to be

corrected.

 

There are different categories of Siva tattva. The top most of them

is sada shiva, who is mentioned in the brahma samhita as

simultaneously equivalent to but not equivalent to Krishna using the

milk - curd example. This Sada Shiva is transcendental to the

material realm and consequently has spiritual body. He wears gopi

candana and guards the forests of vrindavana during Krishna's supreme

pastimes. He is also one of the ashta sakhis. He is also an expansion

of Sankarshana. His eternal consort Uma is also considered as a

servant of krishna, expansion of yoga maya, subhadra devi etc. Shiva

is also considered to be identical to Arjuna, the husband of

Subhadra. Or Arjuna is considered an idnetical expansion of Shiva and

is also a gopi. This Sada Shiva expands many times over and He has

eternal associates in the transcendental realm of Kailsha. These

associates of Lord Shiva are consitutionally designed to serve Him

eternally, while with their svarupa actually serve Krishna. The

worshippers of Shiva who go to his world are educated about forms of

vishnu tattva and Krishna to be sent there when they are ready.

 

This Sada Shiva expands along with Subhadra many times over. One of

these expansions is the linga rupam who consorts with maya. This maya

who is herself an expansion of Subhadra or Yoga Maya many times

removed. In parallel, there are many expansions of Vishnu tattva,

Karano dakshayi Vishnu, Garbhodakshayi Vishnu, Kshirodakshayi Vishnu

etc. Also from an expansion of Vishnu namely Padmanabha, catur mukha

brahma is born in this universe. Like these there are different

brahmans in different universes which are uncountable. Brahma

controls rajo guna, an expansion of Vishnu controls sattva guna and

an expansion of siva controls tamo guna. Then Brahma creates rudra an

expansion of siva in the material world. This rudra is supposed to be

crying as a baby and the supreme lord is said to give him his own

name and some og his saktis especially the power of dissolution.

There are certain partial expansions of Visnu who become subservient

to some of the expansions of siva and also Indra as in the case of

Upendra. However, even these partial expansions are considered

superior to their apparent masters. Those forms of rudra in the

material world are said to have mortal bodies whereas sada shiva is

immortal.

 

There is a gaudiya view that brahma, saraswati etc., also have their

spiritual forms in the spiritual world. Even the sun and the moon are

present in their spiritual state in the goloka.

[Guest guest]

Dear All,

 

Agreed that Gods other than Mahavishnu are demigods, but why should one consider

them as being mortal? Why can't it be that Shiva and Parvati, and their Sons

always exist eternally without being mere bodies which are inhabited by

different Jivas. By assuming this view, one can reconcile all the Puranas which

glorify them. By not assuming this view, we are almost equating these Great Gods

with mere human beings and denying major scriptures which endorse them.

 

In fact Hanuman and Garuda being Chiranjeevi would not make sense if the Jiva

constituing them changed.

 

What I mean to say is that yes Lord Krishna is the leader of the Gods, but the

other Gods (namely Shiva and His family) have eternal existence too, but at a

lesser position in the hierarchy. This list does not include of course Brahma

and Indra and the Devas who anyway are given mortal status by all Shruti and

Smriti.

 

Hare Rama,

Subash

 

 

 

krishna_susarla <krishna_susarla wrote:

 

 

Good questions. I am replying based on memory, so forgive me for

being vague. Of course, if it matters enough for anyone to challenge

I will try to look for the specific evidence.

 

> 1. Do the stories in Puranas get repeated Kalpa after

> Kalpa? Is there any Pramana for it. If it was not the

> case then Ramayana and Mahabharata and many legends

> would be temporary phenomena.

 

My understanding is yes, these events occur in every Kalpa, possibly

in every cycle of 4 yugas. I'm not sure in either case, and I am not

certain of the specific pramaana either.

 

> 2. Other than Lord Krishna, who else are the eternal

> beings? Garuda is one, Hanuman is one, Shiva of

> course. Can we get a list of those beings who are

> eternal other than Krishna/MahaVishnu?

 

In one sense, all jIvas are eternal, but I think your specific

question is: is there always a Hanumaan, always a Shiva, etc?

 

Based on my recollection of something written in Govinda Bhaashya,

yes there are always demigods Brahmaa, Shiva, Indra, etc. If memory

serves, this is based on the following argument:

 

1: Vedas speak of eternal things.

2: No this is not true, for Vedas speak of Brahmaa, Shiva, Indra, who

though long lived, are mortal. Therefore Vedas speak also of limited

and temporary things.

3: Yes, these bodies inhabited by jIvas are temporary, but there is

always a Brahmaa, always a Shiva, always an Indra, etc in each age

and each universe. Thus, Brahmaa, Shiva, Indra, etc are all eternal.

And thus it is true statement that Vedas speak of eternal things.

 

The above is simplistic and based on my hazy memory. Also, I am not

clear on Hanumaan's position, as Gaudiiyas tend to regard him as an

eternally liberated associated of the Lord, although I'm not even

sure if that is their official view.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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