Guest guest Posted December 16, 2004 Report Share Posted December 16, 2004 Fellow Devotees: Hare Krishna! Om Namo Naraayanaaya! I have been wondering about this for quite some time, but all my searches online and in book form resulted in texts that were speculative, blasphemous, incomplete, evasive, or simply ambiguous and vague. In Book 10 of the Rg Veda, Hymn CXXIX declares [last 4 verses]: ko addhA veda ka iha pra vocat kuta AjAtA kuta iyaMvisRSTiH arvAg devA asya visarjanenAthA ko veda yataAbabhUva iyaM visRSTiryata AbabhUva yadi vA dadhe yadi vA na yo asyAdhyakSaH parame vyoman so aN^ga veda yadi vA naveda translated by Ralph T.H. Griffith as: LINK: http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv10129.htm 6 Who verily knows and who can here declare it, whence it was born and whence comes this creation? The Gods are later than this world's production. Who knows then whence it first came into being? 7 He, the first origin of this creation, whether he formed it all or did not form it, Whose eye controls this world in highest heaven, he verily knows it, or perhaps he knows not. The Hymn of Creation is also known as the Nasadiya Suktam. My question has been - Why would the learned ones [incl. Paila, who compiled the Rg Veda under the supervision of Vyasa] 'doubt' the Supreme? Why "veda yadi Va naveda"? How could the Supreme not be aware of the creation right from His anAdi-form, to that of Viraat Purushaa [Purusha Suktam], to the various forms of Vishnu [GarbhoDakshayee and KshiroDakshayee]? Does the last line refer indirectly to the Yoga-Nidra aspect of Mahaa Vishnu? The following verse from the Vishnu Sahasranaamam indicates something to the effect: Gurur gurutamo dhama satyah satya-akramah nimiso animisah sragvi vacaspatir-udara-dhih nimiso - who eyelids are closed in Yoga Nidra animisah - one who's ever awake Thanks for indulging me. Adiyen, Seshadri Veeraraghavan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2004 Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 Greetings Seshadri! Welcome to the group. In response to your query, let me first point out that any answer I offer is necessarily speculative, as I am not a Rig Veda scholar. With that in mind, let me point out a few things: achintya, "S" <sveerara22@h...> wrote: > 6 Who verily knows and who can here declare it, whence it was born > and whence comes this creation? > The Gods are later than this world's production. Who knows then > whence it first came into being? > 7 He, the first origin of this creation, whether he formed it all or > did not form it, > Whose eye controls this world in highest heaven, he verily knows it, > or perhaps he knows not. The point of this last mantra, I think, is to emphasize the Lord's majesty. Creation is such a monumental undertaking, and yet it goes on effortlessly by the Lord. In fact, it is so effortless on the part of the Lord that He need not even be directly aware of it! Bhaagavatam 1.1.1 (http://vedabase.net/sb/1/1/1/en) says something similar: oM namo bhagavate vAsudevAya janmAdyasya yato'nvayAd itaratash chArtheShvabhij~naH svarAT | O my Lord, Shrii Krishna, son of Vasudeva, O all-pervading Personality of Godhead, I offer my respectful obeisances unto You. I meditate upon Lord Shrii Krishna because He is the Absolute Truth and the primeval cause of all causes of the creation, sustenance and destruction of the manifested universes. He is directly and indirectly conscious of all manifestations, and He is independent because there is no other cause beyond Him. (bhAgavata purANa 1.1.1) It's the "directly and indirectly conscious" part that I wanted to call your attention to (anvayAd itaratash chArtheShvabhij~naH). In his purport, Srila Prabhupada writes, "The chief engineer of a complicated construction does not personally take part in the construction, but he knows every nook and corner because everything is done under his direction." Like that, the Lord is aware of everything at one level, but as He can delegate the management of the creation to specific devatas, He need not be directly aware/involved. A similar principle in a slightly different context is found in the 10th Canto in the prayers of the personified Vedas (http://vedabase.net/sb/10/87/41/en). dyupataya eva te na yayur antam anantatayA tvam api yadantarANDanichayA nanu sAvaraNAH || kha iva rajAMsi vAnti vayasA saha yach chhrutayas tvayi hi phalanty atannirasanena bhavannidhanAH || bhA 10.87.41 || Because You are unlimited, neither the lords of heaven nor even You Yourself can ever reach the end of Your glories. The countless universes, each enveloped in its shell, are compelled by the wheel of time to wander within You, like particles of dust blowing about in the sky. The shrutis, following their method of eliminating everything separate from the Supreme, become successful by revealing You as their final conclusion. (bhAgavata purANa 10.87.41) Again, the sentiment here seems to be, "You are so glorious that even You do not know the end of Your glories." It is again a statement of the Lord's majesty, even though it seems self-contradictory. Paraphrasing this, Srila Prabhupada writes in the Krishna Book: "No one, including the mental speculators and the demigods in higher planetary systems, is actually able to estimate the length and breadth of Your form and characteristics. We think that even Your Lordship does not have complete knowledge of Your transcendental qualities. The reason is that You are unlimited. Although it is not befitting in Your case to say that You do not know Yourself, it is nevertheless practical to understand that because You have unlimited qualities and energies and because Your knowledge is also unlimited, there is unlimited competition between Your knowledge and Your expansion of energies" And commenting on this, he writes: "The idea is that because God and His knowledge are both unlimited, as soon as God is cognizant of some of His energies, He perceives that He has still more energies. In this way, both His energies and His knowledge increase. Because both of them are unlimited, there is no end to the energies and no end to the knowledge with which to understand the energies. God is undoubtedly omniscient, but the personified Vedas say that even God Himself does not know the full extent of His energies. This does not mean that God is not omniscient. When an actual fact is unknown to a certain person, this is called ignorance or lack of knowledge. This is not applicable to God, however, because He knows Himself perfectly, but still His energies and activities increase. Therefore He also increases His knowledge to understand them. Both are increasing unlimitedly, and there is no end to it. In that sense it can be said that even God Himself does not know the limit of His energies and qualities." My impression then, is that the Rig Veda is to be understood as per SB 1.1.1: the Lord is omnipotent and omniscient, and He so effortless creates the Universe even though He is not actively "creating" or even troubled enough to be directly "aware" of His creation. That this seems self-contradictory is obvious, but the same, seemingly contradictory description of the Lord is attributed to Him by the personified Vedas, who assert that His unlimitedly expanding energies and knowledge of His energies constantly compete, making Him at times even unaware of His ever expanding glories! Thank you for giving me this opportunity to glorify our Lord. - K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2004 Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 Hare Krishna! <Intro> I read the FAQs, and realized I needed to introduce myself to the Group. I'm Seshadri Veeraraghavan - 29 yo, Sr Software Engineer at BMC Software in Houston, Texas. Been in the US since '97. From a deeply religious Vadakalai Iyengar family, but did not have the inspiration/inclination to be as religious as Appa - although during exams I could have bettered my father! Even now he says he can't believe how sincere I've become in everything related to Him. Year 2001 was a turning point, and certain events propelled me even more towards God-Consciousness and by His mercy, found the company of some wonderful devotees who brought me back ashore towards His feet. </Intro> Krishnaji, Thanks for your reply - appreciate the trouble you took to clarify the points raised. I was aware of the "issue" of the Supreme not really "caring" about what was going on re his energies and how they manifested [such as in the creation of the many universes], because of the sheer size/complexity/potential/power of the energies, but to have the Rg Veda's most popular hymn stopping on an equivocal note bothered me a little, as I could not divine the thoughts and ideas that flowed beneath the surface of the verse. Quite obviously, I'm not at all qualified to BEGIN to understand the depth of the Words, but maybe my questions will get me within a few trillion light years of the answer! I am thinking of starting a regular reading session of the Srimad Bhagavatam [by myself, for now] next year, and I am sure when I encounter the verse you'd kindly pointed out, I'd relate immediately. Or I might just point the browser to VedaBase right now and not wait 15 days! I was not previously aware of the fact that His energies are constantly increasing and that His knowledge of them stretches itself to match up, but was under the impression that His energies are infinite but not "growing," as they don't need to - or do they? [deja vu moment] It's tough reconciling "normal" infinity with 'growing' infinity - although in effect infinity simply cannot be static or it will be measurable immediately and thus won't be so infinite anymore. I think I can contradict myself better than most others! Again, applying material knowledge of Theoretical Physics etc. will get me nowhere, but I can certainly disprove my known ideas and jump to the correct way of perceiving, interpreting, understanding, and absorbing transcendental and spiritual concepts of space, time, and distance. Now, is it that He determines that His energies are much more than He "realized" but in effect they are static and only "grow" when He attempts to get close to the amount [infinite upon observation, but not otherwise - kind of like the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle], or is it that His energies are truly growing all the time, and He truly has to catch up of all the knowledge of the energies and capabilities, all the time? Thanks for your patience and help. Hari Bol. Adiyen, Seshadri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2004 Report Share Posted December 18, 2004 "Quite obviously, I'm not at all qualified to BEGIN to understand the depth of the Words, but maybe my questions will get me within a few trillion light years of the answer!" - This is a major step in spiritual practice, the conquest of ego. Regarding verses from RigVeda and the Shruti, a direct, literalist interpretation can be very misleading. At the same time, a metaphorical interpretation is a crime. So a clever, semi-literal interpretation based on evidence from "Smrithi like Bhagavatam", and one which maintains consistency will lead to the correct interpretation. And in ancient times, when people had ample respect for Smrithi, there was no doubt about the correct method. But, it is because of people losing faith in Smrithi, and trying to take a shortcut of directly interpreting the Shruti, that trouble arises. Another point I would like to make is that one can go only so far in trying to resolve apparent contradictions in our holy scriptures. These apparent contradictions and our inability to resolve those, is a an effect of Vishnu's powerful Maya and the finiteness of human mind. After all, a mind gets strongly programmed from the moment it gets exposed to the environment. The best approach is to take one of the great texts like Bhagavatham as the basis, and concentrate on following it to the core i.e. giving primary importance to practice, and giving the resolution of contradictions a secondary importance. Clearly, this implies throwing off one's scientific cap at times (when you are outside your profession), and becoming a servant of the holy scripture and God,. realizing science is a small drop of water in MahaVishnu's infinite ocean of powers. -"Sarvam Vishnu Mayam", "Hare Krishna, Hare Rama" India Matrimony: Find your life partneronline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2004 Report Share Posted December 18, 2004 Hare Krishna! Thank you - some really wonderful words of wisdom. I see the point quite clearly now. Attuned and conditioned as we are to getting direct answers without contradiction in this world, it takes a different mindset to understand the concept of the Spiritual and the Godly. The Srimad Bhagavatam [the little that I've read] blows my mind away. It is a stunning, majestic, and pristine scriptural creation of the Lord. I think most of the illogical questions that I seem to have, would find warm love in the SB in the form of an answer to modern skepticism/outlook. Hare Bol! On Namo Naaraayanaaya! Adiyen, Seshadri Veeraraghavan achintya, subash r <rajaasub> wrote: > > "Quite obviously, I'm not at all > qualified to BEGIN to understand the depth of the Words, but maybe my > questions will get me within a few trillion light years of the answer!" - This is a major step in spiritual practice, the conquest of ego. > > Regarding verses from RigVeda and the Shruti, a direct, literalist interpretation can be very misleading. At the same time, a metaphorical interpretation is a crime. So a clever, semi-literal interpretation based on evidence from "Smrithi like Bhagavatam", and one which maintains consistency will lead to the correct interpretation. And in ancient times, when people had ample respect for Smrithi, there was no doubt about the correct method. But, it is because of people losing faith in Smrithi, and trying to take a shortcut of directly interpreting the Shruti, that trouble arises. > > Another point I would like to make is that one can go only so far in trying to resolve apparent contradictions in our holy scriptures. These apparent contradictions and our inability to resolve those, is a an effect of Vishnu's powerful Maya and the finiteness of human mind. After all, a mind gets strongly programmed from the moment it gets exposed to the environment. The best approach is to take one of the great texts like Bhagavatham as the basis, and concentrate on following it to the core i.e. giving primary importance to practice, and giving the resolution of contradictions a secondary importance. Clearly, this implies throwing off one's scientific cap at times (when you are outside your profession), and becoming a servant of the holy scripture and God,. realizing science is a small drop of water in MahaVishnu's infinite ocean of powers. > > -"Sarvam Vishnu Mayam", "Hare Krishna, Hare Rama" India Matrimony: Find your life partneronline. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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