Lord's Form and Demons-I

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

 

 

My thoughts on this topic have evolved further. In this and next email, I try to

present my them with sastric evidence. I have also replied to objections raised

earlier.

 

 

 

***********************

 

 

 

KS wrote: These were your exact words:

 

"when the Lord appears as human, the demons think this is it - he is

also made of flesh and bones - but, this is not complete

understanding because the Lord's form is transcendental -the demons'

understanding is limited by ignorance."

 

 

 

>>>> I said “the demons think” that way –this does not mean I support the

demons’ views. But, I agree that instead of “complete” I should have used

“right”. The demons think the Lord’s form is material, because of illusion.

 

KS: Now, if you wish to amend this,that is fine by me. But the above seems to

indicate that you consider the idea of Lord's material form to be "real but

incomplete," thus saying that He has a material form!

 

>>>> The Lord’s form is pure and transcendental. He does not have a material

form, but assumes an illusory form, a covering to be visible to demons. Please

see my detailed my comments at the end. I think there is also some confusion

because of how the two of us use the phrase “Lord’s form” – when I used it I was

referring to the form shown to the demons – not to the svarupa – the Lord’s

svarupa is always transcendental. But, the form he accepts for the demons is

different. That is my position.

 

 

 

KS: "The Supreme Lord Personality of Godhead is neither impersonal nor

formless, but His body is nondifferent from Him, and therefore He is

known as the embodiment of eternity, knowledge and bliss." - This

contradicts the idea that He has a material body to display

specifically to demons since such a body would not be nondifferent

from Him, and not be the embodiment of eternity, knowledge, and bliss.

 

 

 

>>>>It appears that you have got me wrong. Maybe, I’m not clear in my writing. I

never said the Lord has a body like ours. What I meant was He assumes a dress by

dint of His illusory potency, and this dress must be something that can be

perceived by the demons. This, in no way means that the Lord’s form is material

like ours. We are talking about two things here: the Lord’s spiritual form and

the form He shows to demons – your argument is that both are exactly same –my

argument is the latter cannot be same as the former.

 

 

 

KS: "In the Brhad-vaisnava Tantra it is clearly mentioned that anyone who

considers the form of Lord Krsna to be made of material energy must be

ostracized by all means." - Hopefully this is self explanatory. If someone says

that the form of Lord Krishns shown to demons is not spiritual, but instead is

made of material energy, that what am I to conclude about such a person based on

this Tantra?

 

 

 

>>>>The tantra text is talking about the Lord’s svarupa and not the form He

shows to demons. So, sorry you cannot ostracize meJ

 

KS: "The Lord is described as amrta, or deathless, because He has no material

body." - If the Lord Has no material body, then why is it being argued that He

has a material form which is shown to demons? More importantly, why are we being

asked to believe that this is the Gaudiiya Vaishnava view? Either He has a

material form to show or He does not. Which is it?

 

 

 

>>>>Just like a magician takes different roles to bewilder the audience, the

Lord covers His pure form by assuming illusory form to be visble to the demons.

I never argued it is the Gaudiya view. I have only said this is my understanding

based on Gaudiya scriptures.

 

KS: "In the Padma Purana it is said that those who are envious and always angry

at the Lord are unfit to know the actual and eternal form of the Lord." <-- Note

here that he said such demons are unfit to KNOW the actual form of the Lord, not

that they are unfit to SEE the actual from of the Lord.

 

 

 

>>>>ah ah!- anyone will know that one cannot SEE if he does not KNOW – so, when

it is said that demons cannot KNOW actual form of the Lord, it is obvious that

they cannot also SEE.

 

 

 

In his purport to SB 7.8.12, SP makes this clear

 

 

 

“Demons sometimes declare to a devotee that they cannot accept the existence of

God because they cannot see Him. But what the demon does not know is stated by

the Lord Himself in Bhagavad-gita (7.25)…"I am never manifest to the foolish and

unintelligent. For them I am covered by yogamaya." The Lord is open to being

seen by devotees, but nondevotees cannot see Him. The qualification for seeing

God is stated in Brahma-samhita (5.38): premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena

santaù sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti. A devotee who has developed a genuine love

for Krishna can always see Him everywhere, whereas a demon, not having a clear

understanding of the Supreme Lord, cannot see Him.”

 

 

 

*Since the demons don’t have a clear knowledge, they cannot see Him*

 

 

 

....continued in next email

 

 

 

Aravind Mohanram

Ph.D. Candidate

Dept. of Mat Sci and Engg.,

Penn State University,

University Park, PA 16801

www.personal.psu.edu/aum105