Lord's Form and Demons-II

[Guest guest]

KS: Then in the next statement He mentions how the Lord appeared as a

thunderbolt to the wrestlers, or as the brahmajyoti to Sishupaala,

etc. And it is mentioned how the Lord temporarily shows such forms to

demons, and then willingly withdraws such exhibitions. This is

perhaps the strongest evidence supporting Aravind's theory that the

Lord shows temporary, material forms to the demons. However, in the

very next sentence, Prabhupada writes, "The conclusion is that the

Lord has no material body, and therefore He is never to be killed or

changed by His transcendental body."

 

 

 

>>>>Again, SP is talking about the Lord’s svarupa, which I also completely agree

with. There is no argument on that. I’m talking about the form He showed to the

demons, and the one He “RELINQUISHED”. Now, if your argument is right, why does

Srila Prabhupada say the Lord relinquished His body – if there was no additional

form like you claim, where is the question of relinquishing anything – if we go

by your argument, this would mean the Lord relinquished his transcendental body

(I’m talking about SB 1.15.35 translation).

 

 

 

 

KS: If He shows a material body to the demons, that He must "have" it,

right?

 

 

 

>>>>Not necessary. It is just like wearing a sweater above a shirt. You don’t

always need it – only when u don’t want to expose your shirt – another way is to

create an optical illusion of a sweater above the shirt.

 

 

 

Now, after looking at this topic more carefully, I believe it is the 2nd case.

At first, my argument in earlier mails was that the Lord in order to be visible

to the demons must accept a material form, but I guess there is no need for

that. The Lord does not need to wear a sweater, but just needs to create an

illusion for the demons that he is wearing one. So, He need not take up a

material covering (like the arca-vigraha), but just use His illusory power to

make the demons think that He has a material form.

 

 

 

If He does not "have" a material body, then how can He show

a "material body" to the demons?

 

 

 

>>>>By His yogamaya potency.

 

 

KS: Prabhupada, taking Krisna's position, then explains why

these people think this way: "The reason is that I reserve the power

of not being exposed to the nondevotees by My mystic curtain. The

less intelligent fools are therefore unaware of My eternal form,

which is never to be vanquished and is unborn." Taken out of context,

there are only two possible interpretations of this statement:

 

7.24-25-A: Lord hides His actual, spiritual form from nondevotees via

a mystic curtain, and shows only a material form to the nondevotees.

 

7.24-25-B: Lord hides the understanding that His actual form is

spiritual via a mystic curtain, thus allowing nondevotees to think

His spiritual form is actually material.

 

But when you plug this back into context, which says that Lord does

not have a material from, then interpretation A makes less sense.

This leaves us only with interpretation B.

 

 

 

>>>>KS pr., this is a good argument. But, if B is correct, it contradicts the

statement in 1.15.35 of SB that the demons cannot KNOW (or SEE) the form of the

Lord. This is a theme that pervades SP’s books also, that demons are unqualified

to see the Lord’s actual form through their material senses. See the earlier

quote from 7th canto, for example.

 

 

 

 

KS: Furthermore, if interpretation A were true, then that would imply that

non-devotees must not trust the senses, for the Lord is actively showing them

something false (a material form which He in fact does not have). On the other

hand, interpretation B acknowledges that there is no falsehood being

deliberately displayed, but rather that

the Lord is deliberately holding back certain knowledge to properly

process and understand the sensory input of the Lord's true form.

 

 

>>>>At this point, I believe both interpretations A and B are incorrect. So, I

offer an alternative:

 

 

 

7.24-25-A: Lord hides His actual, spiritual form from nondevotees via

a mystic curtain, and shows only a material form to the nondevotees.

 

7.24-25-B: Lord hides the understanding that His actual form is

spiritual via a mystic curtain, thus allowing nondevotees to think

His spiritual form is actually material.

 

 

 

C: The Lord hides His actual, spiritual form from demons via a mystic curtain,

shows an illusory form to them - that is why He is compared to a magician

 

 

 

Now, this illusory form, although it appears material is not material, but a

reflection of the Lord’s transcendental form. For example, the illusory form of

boar is the reflection of the eternal boar form in the spiritual world- just

like the mirage in the desert.

 

 

 

Interpretation C is different from B, because the Lord does not reveal His

svarupa to the demons, but a reflection of one of His transcendental expansions.

And, it is not a question of just holding back knowledge about Him-it is also

about not giving the vision to see Him.

 

 

 

This interpretation is in agreement with the statements of Srila Prabhupada that

the Lord is all-spiritual and Acharya Baladeva, who says that demons cannot see

the transcendental form of the Lord.

 

 

 

Excerpts from Chaitanya Bhagavata (the pdf file I uploaded recently):

 

 

 

“Just as a magician creates an impression for people that he has given up his

own body either by cutting it to pieces, burning it, or falling unconscious,

though he actually remains in his body and does not die, similarly, the Supreme

Lord accepts bodies like Matsya and also gives them up, in other words, He

accepts them and simply makes a show of giving them up. Therefore, just as a

magician possessing his own body is a reality, his giving up that body is

illusory. Similarly, that the Lord accepts bodies like Matsya is actually true,

and that He gives up such bodies is actually illusory. This is the purport. Just

as the Lord gives up His other own incidental bodies like Matsya, He simply gave

up the mundane form by which He diminished the burden of the earth. Therefore

since the entire incident of Lord Krishna’s giving up forms is illusory and

false, being the Supreme Brahman in the form of a human being, He simply

imitates giving up bodies like ordinary human beings.”

 

 

 

 

 

Padma Purana, Uttara-khanda states: ‘The yogis see Lord Janardana on the

strength of their devotional service, He never appears before those on the

nondevotional path. No one who is angry or envious can see Him;’ and Srimad

Bhagavatam states: ‘To the wrestlers, Krishna appeared as a thunderbolt.’ These

conclusive statements confirm that the form manifested by Supreme Lord before

the demons is not His original form, but an illusory form. If one sees the

original form of the Lord, his envious nature is destroyed. Therefore, in order

to diminish the burden of the earth, the Supreme Lord gave up only that form by

which He annihilated the demons. He did not appear again in that form. The form

of the Lord that is seen through the medium of devotion is nitya-siddha,

eternally perfect. That is why the word aja is used. Therefore as an actor or

magician, dressed as a fish to kill a crane that eats fish, takes the form of a

fish in order to create an impression in the minds of people that he

is a fish, and as soon as the crane is killed, he immediately gives up the

temporary form of fish; similarly although Lord Krishnacandra is aja (devoid of

birth like ordinary living entities), He killed the demons to diminish the

burden of the earth with His illusory form manifested before the mundane vision

of the materialists. After killing these demons, He (the unborn Lord) also gave

up His mundane illusory form. But the previously mentioned statement of

Bhagavad-gita (7.25), yogamaya-samavrtah, actually means ‘His body is covered by

a reflection of the illusory energy just as a snake is covered by its skin.’

 

 

 

Thank you for engaging me in this topic.

 

 

in your service,

 

Aravind.

 

 

 

 

 

Aravind Mohanram

Ph.D. Candidate

Dept. of Mat Sci and Engg.,

Penn State University,

University Park, PA 16801

www.personal.psu.edu/aum105