Guest guest Posted October 6, 2005 Report Share Posted October 6, 2005 It is the doctorinal position of ISKCON, accepted.Is that the siddhanta? dasa Narasimhan Templo Virtual de ISKCON <virtual wrote: Dear Prabhu: PAMHO AGTSP "Our Original Position" is the definitive doctrinal position of ISKCON regarding jiva's original position, and was writed in response to "In Vaikuntha even the leaves do not fall", "Our original Position" never received a response from autors of "In Vaikuntha even the leaves do not fall", so, we can conclude they has been surrounded at sastric evidence. ys Narendra dasa Achintya Homepage: achintya DISCLAIMER: All postings appearing on Achintya are the property of their authors, and they may not be cross-posted to other forums without prior approval by said authors. Views expressed in Achintya postings are those of their authors only, and are not necessarily endorsed by the moderator or spiritual leaders of the Gaudiiya school. for Good Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2005 Report Share Posted October 6, 2005 Pranams to all. AGTSP. Hare are some interesting quotes from the Mahabharata. Something to think about. Hare Krishna ARd santi-parva CXCV ( Bhismadeva to Yuddhistira) liberated from the liability to rebirth they live in their original soul-state. santi-parva CCXIII invested in His maya, men fall away from knowledge and become senseless and in consequence of their knowledge being darkned, yield to wrath, desire, pride ,selfishness and birth and death santi-parva CCLXXIX the Jiva cannot revert to his immutable spiritual state or to the immutable Lord by acts of piety. He should dispel by means of knowledge, the darkness that invest him in consequence of ignorance. santi-parva CCCIII the soul becomes united with prakrti and invested with ignorance uniting with the attributes or virtues of sattva, rajas and tamah in consequence of his forgetfulness and pairing with waited upon by ignorance (=act as an attendant) The akshara becomes transformed into kshara (=fallible destructible) santi-parva CCCIV in consequence of his forgetfulness the soul follows ignorance santi-parva CCCVIII When the jiva beholds the Supreme and knowledge dawns upon him, he laments": alas how foolishly I have acted by falling through ignorance into this frame composed of prakrti like a fish entangled in a netI.. fie on me that through ignorance, I have been repeatedly migrating from body to body in forgetfulness. The supreme soul alone is my friend. Being really stainless. I have capacity for friendship with Him. I am competent to be like Him and to attain an identity with Him. I see my similarity with Him. I am indeed like Him. He is pure. It is evident that I am of the same nature. Through ignorance and stupefaction I have become associated with inanimate prakrti. Though really without attachments I have passed this long time in a state of attachment with prakrti. By her I was so long subdued without having been able to know it . ....having passed so long a time with her... The responsibility is mine, since turning away from the Supreme Soul I became of my own accord attached to her. What diverse acts of an evil nature have been committed by me so in these orders I took birth while I remained in them with a soul that lost all knowledge. PS: for the scholars there is an additional attached file with a corresponding Sanskrit text. for Good Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. ---------- PS: The sanskrit text looks long but when you find in it the exact sentence corresponding to English quote it is actually short. First quote: (195) CXCV: hanta vakShyAmi te pArtha dhyAnayoga.n chaturvidham . ya.n GYAtvA shAshvatIM siddhi.n gachchhanti paramarShayaH .. 1..\\ yathA svanuShThita.n dhyAnaM tathA kurvanti yoginaH . maharShayo GYAnatR^iptA nirvAna gatamAnasAH .. 2..\\ nAvartante punaH pArtha muktAH sa.nsAradoShataH . janma doShaparikShINAH svabhAve paryavasthitAH .. 3..\\ nirdvandvA nityasattvasthA vimuktA nityamAshritAH . asa~NgInyavivAdAni manaH shAnti karANi cha .. 4..\\ tatra svAdhyAyasaMshliShTamekAgra.n dhArayenmanaH . piNDIkR^ityendriya grAmamAsInaH kAsthavanmuniH .. 5..\\ shabdaM na vindechchhrotreNa sparsha.n tvachA na vedayet . rUpaM na chakShuShA vidyAjjihvayA na rasA.nstathA .. 6..\\ ghreyANyapi cha sarvANi jahyAddhyAnena yogavit . pa~nchavarga pramAthIni nechchhechchaitAni vIryavAn .. 7..\\ tato manasi sa.nsajya pa~nchavarga.n vichakShaNaH . samAdadhyAnmano bhrAntamindriyaiH saha pa~nchabhiH .. 8..\\ visa~ncAri nirAlambaM pa~ncha dvAra.n chalAchalam . pUrve dhyAnapathe dhIraH samAdadhyAnmano.antaram .. 9..\\ indriyANi manashchaiva yadA piNDIkarotyayam . eSha dhyAnapathaH pUrvo mayA samanuvarNitaH .. 10..\\ tasya tatpUrvasa.nruddhaM manaH sasthamanantaram . sphuriShyati samudbhrAnta.n vidyudambudhare yathA .. 11..\\ jalabinduryathA lolaH parNasthaH sarvatashchalaH . evamevAsya tachchittaM bhavati dhyAnavartmani .. 12..\\ samAhita.n kShaNaM kiM chiddhyAnavartmani tiShThati . punarvAyupathaM bhrAntaM mano bhavati vAyuvat .. 13..\\ anirvedo gataklesho gatatandrIramatsaraH . samAdadhyAtpunashcheto dhyAnena dhyAnayogavit .. 14..\\ vichArashcha vitarkashcha vivekashchopajAyate . muneH samAdadhAnasya prathama.n dhyAnamAditaH .. 15..\\ manasA klishyamAnastu samAdhAna.n cha kArayet . santi-parva CXCV ( Bhismadeva to Yuddhistira) liberated from the liability to rebirth they live in their original soul-state. Second quote (213) CCXIII guru rajasA sAdhyate mohastamasA cha nararShabha . krodhalobhau bhaya.n darpa eteShA.n sAdhanAchchhuchiH .. 1..\\ paramaM paramAtmAna.n devamakShayamavyayam . viShNumavyaktasa.nsthAna.n vishante deva sattamam .. 2..\\ tasya mAyA vidagdhA~NgA GYAnabhraShTA nirAshiShaH . mAnavA GYAnasaMmohAttataH kAmaM prayAnti vai .. 3..\\ kAmAtkrodhamavApyAtha lobhamohau cha mAnavAH . mAnadarpAdaha~NkAramaha~NkArAttataH kriyAH .. 4..\\ kriyAbhiH snehasambandhaH snehAchchhokamanantaram . sukhaduHkhasamArambhAjjanmAjanma kR^itakShaNAH .. 5..\\ janmato garbhavAsa.n tu shukrashonita sambhavam . purIsa mUtra vikleda shonita prabhavAvilam .. 6..\\ santi-parva CCXIII invested in His maya, men fall away from knowledge and become senseless and in consequence of their knowledge being darkned, yield to wrath, desire, pride ,selfishness and birth and death Third quote (279) CCLXXIX nAstyanantaM mahArAja sarva.n sa~NkhyAna gocharam . punarbhAvo.api sa~NkhyAto nAsti ki.n chidihAchalam .. 6..\\ na chApi gamyate rAjannaiSha doShaH prasa~NgataH . udyogAdeva dharmaGYa kAlenaiva gamiShyatha .. 7..\\ Isho.aya.n satata.n dehI nR^ipate puNyapApayoH . tata eva samutthena tamasA rudhyate.api cha .. 8..\\ yathA~njana mayo vAyuH punarmAnaH shila.n rajaH . anupravishya tadvarNo dR^ishyate ra~njayandishaH .. 9..\\ tathA karmaphalairdehI ra~njitastamasAvR^itaH . vivarNo varmamAshritya deheShu parivartate .. 10..\\ GYAnena hi yadA janturaGYAnaprabhava.n tamaH . vyapohati tadA brahma prakAsheta sanAtanam .. 11..\\ ayatna sAdhyaM munayo vadanti ye chApi muktAsta upAsitavyAH . tvayA cha lokena cha sAmareNa tasmAnna shAmyanti maharShisa~NghAH .. 12..\\ asminnarthe purA gIta.n shR^iNuShvaika manA nR^ipa . yathA daityena vR^itreNa bhraShTaishvaryeNa cheShTitam .. 13..\\ nirjitenAsahAyena hR^itarAjyena bhArata . ashochatA shatrumadhye buddhimAsthAya kevalAm .. 14..\\ bhraShTaishvaryaM purA vR^itramushanA vAkyamabravIt . kachchitparAjitasyAdya na vyathA te.asti dAnava .. 15..\\ santi-parva CCLXXIX Jiva cannot revert to his immutable spiritual state or to the immutable Lord by acts of piety. He should dispel by means of knowledge, the darkness that invest him in consequence of ignorance. Fourth Quote (303) CCCIII yadamUrtyasR^ijadvyakta.n tattanmUrtyadhitiShThati . chaturviMshatimo vyakto hyamUrtaH pa~nchaviMshakaH .. 38..\\ sa eva hR^idi sarvAsu mUrtiShvAtiShThate.a.atmavAn . chetayaMshchetano nityaH sarvamUrtiramUrtimAn .. 39..\\ sarga pralaya dharmiNyA asarga pralayAtmakaH . gochare vartate nityaM nirguNo guNasa~nj~nakaH .. 40..\\ evameSha mahAnAtmA sarga pralaya kovidaH . vikurvANaH prakR^itimAnabhimanyatyabuddhimAn .. 41..\\ tamaH sattvarajo yuktastAsu tAsviha yoniShu . lIyate.apratibuddhatvAdabuddha janasevanAt .. 42..\\ saha vAso nivAsAtmA nAnyo.ahamiti manyate . yo.aha.n so.ahamiti hyuktvA guNAnanu nivartate .. 43..\\ tamasA tAmasAnbhAvAnvividhAnpratipadyate . rajasA rAjasAMshchaiva sAttvikAnsattvasaMshrayAt .. 44..\\ shuklalohita kR^iShNAni rUpANyetAni trINi tu . sarvANyetAni rUpANi jAnIhi prAkR^itAni vai .. 45..\\ tAmasA niraya.n yAnti rAjasA mAnuShA.nstathA . sAttvikA devalokAya gachchhanti sukhabhAginaH .. 46..\\ niShkaivalyena pApena tiryagyonimavApnuyAt . puNyapApena mAnuShyaM puNyenaikena devatAH .. 47..\\ evamavyaktaviShaya.n kSharamAhurmanIShiNaH . pa~nchaviMshatimo yo.aya.n GYAnAdeva pravartate .. 48..\\ santi-parva CCCIII soul becomes united with prakrti and invested with ignorance uniting with the attributes or virtues of sattva, rajas and tamah in consequence of his forgetfulness and pairing with waited upon by ignorance (=act as an attendant) The akshara becomes transformed into kshara (=fallible destructible) Fifth quote (304) CCCIV evamapratibuddhatvAdabuddhamanuvartate . dehAddehasahasrANi tathA samabhipadyate .. 1..\\ tiryagyonisahasreShu kadA chiddevatAsvapi . upapadyati sa.nyogAdguNaiH saha guNakShayAt .. 2..\\ mAnuShatvAddiva.n yAti divo mAnuShyameva cha . mAnuShyAnnirayasthAnamAnantyaM pratipadyate .. 3..\\ koshakAro yathAtmAna.n kItaH samanurundhati . sUtratantu guNairnitya.n tathAyamaguNo guNaiH .. 4..\\ santi-parva CCCIV in consequence of his forgetfulness the soul follows ignorance Sixth quote (308) CCCVIII anyo.ahamanyeyamiti yadA budhyati buddhimAn .. 20..\\ tadaiSho.anyatvatAmeti na cha mishratvamAvrajet . prakR^ityA chaiva rAjendra na mishro.anyashcha dR^ishyate .. 21..\\ yadA tu guNajAla.n tatprAkR^ita.n vijugupsate . pashyate chAparaM pashya.n tadA pashyanna sa~njvaret .. 22..\\ kiM mayA kR^itametAvadyo.aha.n kAlamimaM janam . matsyo jAla.n hyaviGYAnAdanuvartitavA.nstathA .. 23..\\ ahameva hi saMmohAdanyamanya.n janA~n janam . matsyo yathodaka GYAnAdanuvartitavAniha .. 24..\\ matsyo.anyatva.n yathAGYAnAdudakAnnAbhimanyate . AtmAna.n tadvadaGYAnAdanyatvaM chaiva vedmyaham .. 25..\\ mamAstu dhigabuddhasya yo.ahaM magnamimaM punaH . anuvartitavAnmohAdanyamanya.n janAjjanam .. 26..\\ ayamatra bhavedbandhuranena saha mokShaNam . sAmyamekatvamAyAto yAdR^ishastAdR^ishastvaham .. 27..\\ tulyatAmiha pashyAmi sadR^isho.ahamanena vai . aya.n hi vimalo vyaktamahamIdR^ishakastathA .. 28..\\ yo.ahamaGYAnasaMmohAdaGYayA sampravR^ittavAn . sasa~NgayAhaM niHsa~NgaH sthitaH kAlamima.n tvaham .. 29..\\ anayAha.n vashIbhUtaH kAlametaM na buddhavAn . uchchamadhyamanIchAnA.n tAmahaM kathamAvase .. 30..\\ samAnayAnayA cheha saha vAsamaha.n katham . gachchhAmyabuddha bhAvatvAdeShedAnI.n sthiro bhave .. 31..\\ saha vAsaM na yAsyAmi kAlametaddhi va~nchanAt . va~nchito.asmyanayA yaddhi nirvikAro vikArayA .. 32..\\ na chAyamaparAdho.asyA aparAdho hyayaM mama . yo.ahamatrAbhava.n saktaH parA~NmukhamupasthitaH .. 33..\\ tato.asmi bahurUpAsu sthito mUrtiShvamUrtimAn . amUrtashchApi mUrtAtmA mamatvena pradharShitaH .. 34..\\ prakR^iteranayatvena tAsu tAsviha yoniShu . nirmamasya mamatvena ki.n kR^itaM tAsu tAsu cha . yonIShu vartamAnena naShTa sa~nj~nena chetasA .. 35..\\ santi-parva CCCVIII When jiva beholds the Supreme and knowledge dawns upon him, he laments": alas how foolishly I have acted by falling through ignorance into this frame composed of prakrti like a fish entangled in a netI.. fie on me that through ignorance, I have been repeatedly migrating from body to body in forgetfulness. The supreme soul alone is my friend. Being really stainless. I have capacity for friendship with Him. I am competent to be like Him and to attain an identity with Him. I see my similarity with Him. I am indeed like Him. He is pure. It is evident that I am of the same nature. Through ignorance and stupefaction I have become associated with inanimate prakrti. Though really without attachments I have passed this long time in a state of attachment with prakrti. By her I was so long subdued without having been able to know it . ....having passed so long a time with her... The responsibility is mine, since turning away from the Supreme Soul I became of my own accord attached to her. What diverse acts of an evil nature have been committed by me so in these orders I took birth while I remained in them with a soul that lost all knowledge. Seventh quote (309) CCCIX budhyate yadi vAvyaktametadvai pa~nchaviMshakam . budhyamAno bhavatyeSha sa~NgAtmaka iti shrutiH .. 5..\\ anenApratibuddheti vadantyavyaktamachyutam . avyaktabodhanAchchaiva budhyamAna.n vadantyupa .. 6..\\ pa~nchaviMshaM mahAtmAnaM na chAsAvapi budhyate . sadviMsha.n vimalaM buddhamaprameyaM sanAtanam .. 7..\\ satataM pa~nchavi.nsa.n cha chaturviMshaM cha budhyate . dR^ishyAdR^ishye hyanugatamubhAveva mahAdyutI .. 8..\\ avyaktaM na tu tadbrahma budhyate tAta kevalam . kevalaM pa~nchaviMsha.n cha chaturviMshaM na pashyati .. 9..\\ budhyamAno yadAtmAnamanyo.ahamiti manyate . tadA prakR^itimAneSha bhavatyavyaktalochanaH .. 10..\\ budhyate cha parAM buddhi.n vishuddhAmamalAM yadA . sadviMsho rAjashArdUla tadA buddhatvamAvrajet .. 11..\\ tatastyajati so.avyakta.n sarga pralaya dharmiNam . nirguNaH prakR^iti.n veda guNayuktAmachetanAm .. 12..\\ tataH kevaladharmAsau bhavatyavyaktadarshanAt . kevalena samAgamya vimukto.a.atmAnamApnuyAt .. 13..\\ etattattattvamityAhurnistattvamajarAmaram . tattvasaMshrayaNAdetattattvavanna cha mAnada . CCCIX When jiva succeeds in understanding prakrti, himself and the Supreme Soul he is said to be restored to his true nature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 7, 2005 Report Share Posted October 7, 2005 Dear Ranganathan Narasimhan PAMHO AGTSP Not, all at inverse. First this is the siddhanta, thus this is the doctrinal position of ISKCON. I recommend you to read again Our Original Position, there are all sastric evidences about my saying. ys Narendra dasa ranganathan narasimhan wrote: >It is the doctorinal position of ISKCON, accepted.Is that the siddhanta? > >dasa >Narasimhan > >Templo Virtual de ISKCON <virtual wrote: >Dear Prabhu: >PAMHO AGTSP > >"Our Original Position" is the definitive doctrinal position of ISKCON regarding jiva's original position, and was writed in response to "In Vaikuntha even the leaves do not fall", "Our original Position" never received a response from autors of "In Vaikuntha even the leaves do not fall", so, we can conclude they has been surrounded at sastric evidence. > >ys >Narendra dasa > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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