Guest guest Posted February 9, 2006 Report Share Posted February 9, 2006 Hare Krishna, I was wondering if some one on this forum will help me understand Srila Prabhupada's position on evolution. Although in his various talks he has vociferously opposed evolution, I found a few references wherein he alludes to evolution. However it is not clear if he is referring to evolution of soul or of the body. I am pasting the "ambiguous" references herein. So my questions are: 1. Is Srila Prabhupada against evolution per se or is he against the atheistic implications of evolution? Following are some references where SP talks about (in support of) evolution: He was also a great anthropologist, and the theory of evolution was long ago explained by him. (SP is talking about Bhrgu Samhita) >>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 1.19.9, SB 1.19.10, SB 1.19.9-10 The whole process of creation is an act of gradual evolution and development from one element to another, reaching up to the variegatedness of the earth as so many trees, plants, mountains, rivers, reptiles, birds, animals and varieties of human beings. The quality of sense perception is also evolutionary, namely generated from sound, then touch, and from touch to form. >>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 2.5.30 2. If we take in to account the process of creation discussed in the second and third cantos, then the theory of evolution does seem consistent with it. This makes me interpret that SP is not against evolution but the atheistic implication of evolution. Am I understanding it correct? 3. In his various conversations, especially those that are recorded in the book Life comes from Life, he seems to suggest that there is intelligence behind everything. So if a mutation is increasing the fitness of an organism then the mutation is not a mistake but intelligence The Real Origin of Species Dr. Singh. To explain why there are so many varieties of living entities, the scientists say that at a certain time during evolution, the cells' genes, which normally reproduce themselves perfectly for the next generation, sometimes make a mistake in copying -- something like the printing press that sometimes makes mistakes. In some circumstances these mistakes, or mutations, have stood, and different species of living entities have been formed because of the difference in the genes. Srila Prabhupada. But that "mistake" has been continuing since time immemorial, for you will find that all varieties of living entities have always existed. Therefore the "mistake" is eternal. But when a "mistake" is permanent, it is not a mistake; it is intelligence! Dr. Singh. But scientists say that if there were no mutations, then there would be only one kind of living entity in the whole universe. Srila Prabhupada. No. Every living entity has a different mind, and therefore there are so many different species of life to accommodate the different mentalities. For example, we are walking here, but most people are not coming to join us, because they have different mentalities than we do. Why does this difference exist? Dr. Singh. Maybe it is a mistake. Srila Prabhupada. It is not a mistake. It is their desire, and at the time of death everyone will get a body exactly according to his desire. Krsna says in Bhagavad-gita (8.6): yam yam vapi smaran bhavam tyajaty ante kalevaram tam tam evaiti kaunteya sada tad-bhava-bhavitah "Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits his body, that state he will attain without fail." What you are thinking of at the time of death exactly determines your next body. Nature will give you the body; the decision is not in your hands, but in nature's, and she is working under the direction of God. Dr. Singh. But science seems to have evidence that different species of life do arise by mistakes. Srila Prabhupada. That is their mistake! In the laws of nature there are no mistakes. In railway cars there are first-class, second-class and third-class sections. If you purchase a third-class ticket but by mistake go to the first-class section, you will not be allowed to stay there. It is not a mistake that there are sections; that is the arrangement. But it is your mistake that you have gone to the wrong section. So, God is so thorough that He knows all the mistakes that will be made. Therefore, according to the mistakes you commit, you enter a particular body: "Here, come here. The body is ready." There are 8,400,000 species of life, and nature works, assigning different bodies, with mathematical precision. When the government builds a city, it builds a prison even before the city is completed, because the government knows that there will be many criminals who will have to go to prison. This is not the government's mistake; it is the mistake of the criminals. Because they become criminals, they have to go there. It is their mistake. In nature there are no mistakes. Krsna says: mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sacaracaram hetunanena kaunteya jagad viparivartate "This material nature is working under My direction, O son of Kunti, and producing all moving and nonmoving beings." (Bg. 9.10) Nature works under the supervision of God, Krsna, so how can nature make mistakes? But we commit mistakes, we are illusioned, our senses are imperfect, and we cheat. That is the difference between God and man. God does not have imperfect senses; His senses are perfect. >>> Ref. VedaBase => The Real Origin of Species 4. What is the exact Vedic view point on Origin of Species? Thank you very much, Ys, Vidyadhar **************************************************************************** ************ Vidyadhar M Karmarkar Graduate Fellow, Genomics and Bioinformatics, Huck Institute of Life Sciences, The Pennsylvania State Unversity, University Park, PA 16801. Lab Phone: 814-863-2513 Fax: 814-863-2312 **************************************************************************** ************ "Essential truth spoken concisely is true eloquence." - Sri Chaitanya Charitamrita Adi-Lila 1.106 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2006 Report Share Posted February 12, 2006 On Thu, 9 Feb 2006, Vidyadhar Karmarkar wrote: > Following are some references where SP talks about (in support of) > evolution: > > He was also a great anthropologist, and the theory of evolution was long ago > explained by him. (SP is talking about Bhrgu Samhita) > Who is he referring to here? > The whole process of creation is an act of gradual evolution and development > from one element to another, reaching up to the variegatedness of the earth > as so many trees, plants, mountains, rivers, reptiles, birds, animals and > varieties of human beings. The quality of sense perception is also > evolutionary, namely generated from sound, then touch, and from touch to > form. >>>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 2.5.30 As I understand it, this means that the process is gradual, and proceeds from more subtle to more gross manifestations. This material creation thus evolves. > 3. In his various conversations, especially those that are recorded in the > book Life comes from Life, he seems to suggest that there is intelligence > behind everything. So if a mutation is increasing the fitness of an organism > then the mutation is not a mistake but intelligence The crux is to define each one of the species; as far as I can tell, neither Darwinian theories, nor our sastras have done that very clearly. MDd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 > The crux is to define each one of the species; as far as I can tell, neither Darwinian theories, nor our sastras have done that very clearly. > morphologically, there can be infinite number of species and new ones will keep coming up. neither sastras nor modern science would be able to communicate that to our limited brains. but the consciousness levels (dharma bhoota jnanam as sri vaishnavas call it) may be classified in to discreet bands so as to create finite set of species. when vedas talk about creation, they are trying to explain how brahman or purusha becomes the material and efficient cause of this universe by his inconceivable illusory potency. we cant apply that to earthly plane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 Hare Krishna, >>>Who is he referring to here?<<< Bhrgu Muni >>> The crux is to define each one of the species; as far as I can tell, neither Darwinian theories, nor our sastras have done that very clearly.<<< Can we consider the jalaja nava lakshani sthavara laksha…… verse as a definition of each species? That definition perfectly agrees with modern biology which makes classification in different kingdoms like amphibians (jalaja), plants (sthavara), insects and reptiles (krmaya), birds (paksinam), animals (pasavah) and humans (manusah). (Although I have made this comparison to make the point of defining species, the actual kingdoms as per modern biology are Monera, Protista, Fungi, Plantae and Animalia. Various species are further sub-classified in these kingdoms). Also SB 11.9.28 mentions definitive species “The Supreme Personality of Godhead, expanding His own potency, maya-sakti, created innumerable species of life to house the conditioned souls. Yet by creating the forms of trees, reptiles, animals, birds, snakes and so on, the Lord was not satisfied within His heart. Then He created human life, which offers the conditioned soul sufficient intelligence to perceive the Absolute Truth, and became pleased” As far as characteristics of each species are concerned then there are scattered references like dvi-padani (2-legs), catus-padani (4 legs), acquatic (jalaja), symptoms of terrestrials (SB 2.10.32) etc So my understanding is our sastras do cover this topic (or else Vedas would be incomplete) and Srila Prabhupada’s point is Bhrgu Samhita explains this in detail. >>> As I understand it, this means that the process is gradual, and proceeds from more subtle to more gross manifestations. This material creation thus evolves.<<< Yes, that is the position of current science too, that everything has evolved – it can be big bang or Darwinian evolution. While I understand that our sastric description of subtle to gross is different from present science, I am unclear about what does the sastras say about origin of species vis-à-vis the origin of life and universe. If as per our sastras everything evolves gradually, then I see no flaw in science when it says species evolve from simple to more complex forms. Simple life forms could be existing when the material creation was yet manifesting and complex life forms came into being when the universe was completely manifested. Your servant, Vidyadhar achintya [achintya] On Behalf Of mpt Sunday, February 12, 2006 8:07 PM achintya Re: Srila Prabhupada on Evolution On Thu, 9 Feb 2006, Vidyadhar Karmarkar wrote: > Following are some references where SP talks about (in support of) > evolution: > > He was also a great anthropologist, and the theory of evolution was long ago > explained by him. (SP is talking about Bhrgu Samhita) > Who is he referring to here? > The whole process of creation is an act of gradual evolution and development > from one element to another, reaching up to the variegatedness of the earth > as so many trees, plants, mountains, rivers, reptiles, birds, animals and > varieties of human beings. The quality of sense perception is also > evolutionary, namely generated from sound, then touch, and from touch to > form. >>>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 2.5.30 As I understand it, this means that the process is gradual, and proceeds from more subtle to more gross manifestations. This material creation thus evolves. > 3. In his various conversations, especially those that are recorded in the > book Life comes from Life, he seems to suggest that there is intelligence > behind everything. So if a mutation is increasing the fitness of an organism > then the mutation is not a mistake but intelligence The crux is to define each one of the species; as far as I can tell, neither Darwinian theories, nor our sastras have done that very clearly. MDd Achintya Homepage: achintya DISCLAIMER: All postings appearing on Achintya are the property of their authors, and they may not be cross-posted to other forums without prior approval by said authors. Views expressed in Achintya postings are those of their authors only, and are not necessarily endorsed by the moderator or spiritual leaders of the Gaudiiya school. achintya/ achintya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 Vidyadhar prabhu, Dandavats! Jaya Srila Prabhupada. QUOTE> The whole process of creation is an act of gradual evolution and development from one element to another, reaching up to the variegatedness of the earth as so many trees, plants, mountains, rivers, reptiles, birds, animals and varieties of human beings. The quality of sense perception is also evolutionary, namely generated from sound, then touch, and from touch to form.<UNQUOTE This is referring to the pancI-karaNa process outlined in the Vedic literatures -- pentamerous permutations of the pure subtle elements to produce the variety of gross forms in Nature. It proceeds from the subtle to the gross. In the Vedas, the subtle material elements are also associated with the material senses (subtle Earth-element with smell, etc). That is why the shaastras sometimes make no distinction between "sense" and "sense-object". These 5 subtle- elements also correspond to principal cakras. The basic subtle elements then permute to yield the various gross material elements, which are actually a mixture of all, with one predominating. The main point is that this is from subtle to gross. >From the conversations I've read, Srila Prabhupada seems to be against the atheistic assumptions or inferences of the scientists, rather than the possibility of physical evolution. The Vedas clearly state a finite number of "species" (yonishu). These could very well be manifested in the gross dimension in linear time, like a carpet being rolled out. But the idea that a pure "chaos" system accidentally gives rise to the various forms of life of possibly indeterminate number, unguided by a Higher Intelligence, is contradictory tothe Vedas and to Srila Prabhupada. In any case, those kind of theories aren't even that popular in serious science anymore. They exist only in a more well-defined, limited, watered down way. The "Chaos theory" that had set the cat amongst the pigeons now merely states that, in a highly complex ecological system, a tiny force in one corner can set off tremendous effects throughout. That is pretty much the limit of its claims today. Actually its statement has always been limited, but over- imaginative scientists EXTRAPOLATED that empirically observed principle wildly beyond its original, specific context. Such pseudo- science always receives sensational publicity in the media, because it obviously challenges established beliefs and the very idea of God, and promises to attract the attention of society. It feeds the enjoyable spectator sport between the religious fundamentalists and the anti-God fundamentalists. So I think various other interests converge to create publicity. But in the medium- to long-term, the smoke dissipates and only the essential stuff remains, at least in serious scientific circles. I was hoping that as a Molecular Biologist you could say something specific about these theories, which seem to be common to your field and other cutting edge disciplines: Example: Quantum physics and superstring theory now base themselves on a version of the "Anthropic Principle", which states that the substrate of existence is a Consciousness, and that carbon-based humans were "destined" to result from any process of "evolution". Moreover, since consciousness is self-referential and recursive, they realize that it can't possibly be any other way! While such speculation is still controversial and making many scientists uncomfortable, more and more scientists are seeing it this way. Similarly, why hasn't the morphogenetic field theory gained wider acceptance, if at all? It states that there is "information" in this subtle morphic field in nature that actually guides the forms that developmental biology studies. Similarly, it is WIDELY ACCEPTED now that Information (and hence Intelligence) is the MAIN component of the Universe, rather than just matter and energy. Many new theories like the "Holographic universe", etc are coming out of this understanding. Prabhu, it would be great if you and Aravind Mohanram prabhu could put a series of informational articles on such topics together, perhaps as installments in your Penn State magazine... Yours in service, Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 On Tue, 14 Feb 2006, Vidyadhar Karmarkar wrote: >>>> The crux is to define each one of the species; as far as I can tell, > neither Darwinian theories, nor our sastras have done that very clearly.<<< > > > > Can we consider the jalaja nava lakshani sthavara laksha…… verse as a > definition of each species? I don't think so. These categories are too broad. > Also SB 11.9.28 mentions definitive species “The Supreme Personality of > Godhead, expanding His own potency, maya-sakti, created innumerable species > of life to house the conditioned souls. This is hardly a systematic analysis comparable to what Darwinians propose. > If as per our sastras > everything evolves gradually, then I see no flaw in science when it says > species evolve from simple to more complex forms. Simple life forms could be > existing when the material creation was yet manifesting and complex life > forms came into being when the universe was completely manifested. My understanding is that Darwinians posit an open-ended process; we don't. MDd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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