Uttistha jagrata varan prapya nibodhata (was: Chanakya's advice)

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 23 Feb 2006, krishna_susarla wrote:

> When I visited Sri Rangam a few years back, I met real brahmanas.

> They were wearing Sri Vaishnava tilak, sacred thread, and very

> simple cloth. They looked like Vedic scholars, and yet for all their

> erudition, they were falling at the feet of any passersby just to

> beg for enough money to subsist on. It was very heart breaking to

> see people who by all rights should be supported by society,

> nevertheless behaving as if they were the lowest of the low. That

> left a very long-lasting impression on me.

 

Of course, the destitute condition of the brahmanas isn't entirely a new

phenomenon. Bilvamangala Thakura lamented that there was a time when even he

made the Goddess Sarasvati dance before so many wicked men just to fill his

belly. Evidently, this means that even hundreds of years ago brahmanas sometimes

had to praise rascals just to make ends meet. That's the result of Laksmidevi's

curse, I suppose.

 

But it isn't just brahmanas either. It's distressing to see how women, children,

brahmanas, elders, and cows are now so neglected, and even abused, by those who

are themselves steeped in the principles of materialism that modern society is

based on. Why should this be?

 

For that matter, out of all the world's traditional religious communities,

Hindus are particularly asleep to what can most accurately be described the

wholescale raping, pillaging, and paving over of their traditional civilization

and most of its ideals (often perpetrated by Indians themselves). Here in India,

it's now quite obvious that the still comparatively pious character of

(especially semirural) Indians is highly coveted by opportunistic transnational

corporations, evangelical Christians, and ex-NRI brahmanas trained by such

demons, who have now come back to exploit their easily exploitable countrymen.

Indians are generally infatuated and awestruck by anything and anyone Western,

and I've personally seen that there's very little an Indian won't do to get the

mercy of a Westerner. India's current situation isn't altogether unlike its

political situation was a hundred years ago. Both

situations involve Indians avidly pursuing training overseas in order to get the

advantage for self-aggrandizement within The New India. The main difference is

that because the nation-state paradigm has now significantly faded into

irrelevence worldwide, these ignorant and therefore unscrupulous opportunists

are no longer so interested in governments. Unfortunately, they aren't

interested in the purpose of human life either, nor even in their humanity (or

humanities), for that matter. They are spiritually retarded, though they don't

have to stay that way. India's future depends on the choices these people are

now making.

 

Svasty astu visvasya, khalah prasidatam...

 

MDd

[Guest guest]

achintya, mpt wrote:

 

> Of course, the destitute condition of the brahmanas isn't entirely

a new phenomenon. Bilvamangala Thakura lamented that there was a

time when even he made the Goddess Sarasvati dance before so many

wicked men just to fill his belly. Evidently, this means that even

hundreds of years ago brahmanas sometimes had to praise rascals just

to make ends meet. That's the result of Laksmidevi's curse, I

suppose.

>

 

Somehow, it was more heart-breaking to me than the whole concept of

poverty in general. On one hand, these brahmanas are authentic

because they do not take to Western education to support themselves.

Yet on the other hand, they must debase themselves before people who

by all rights should be offering the brahmins obeisances. The fact

that these are Vedic scholars just made it that much more tragic.

 

> For that matter, out of all the world's traditional religious

communities, Hindus are particularly asleep to what can most

accurately be described the wholescale raping, pillaging, and paving

over of their traditional civilization and most of its ideals (often

perpetrated by Indians themselves).

>

 

To be fair, British Imperialism and its consequences have left deep

and lasting scars on Indian society. One of these is the formation

of a new educated class who have been raised to admire all things

Western and despise all things Indian. And these are the people who

control the media. Small wonder that Indians seem asleep. The ones

who do object have no power, and those who object on their behalf

are frequently labeled as fundamentalists. The Western-educated

intelligentsia is so rabidly anti-Hindu that any talk of religion is

condemned by them as "fundamentalist."

 

In so many other ways, the society is set up so as to stack the

cards against those who want to pursue traditional varnaashrama

dharma. On my father's side of the family, there are traditional

Veda pandits as recent as 3 generations back. They hated Western

education and forbade their children from going to any English-

medium schools. As a result, their children starved and raised their

descendants in abject poverty. Now, their descendants no longer

starve, and despite being admirers of Vedic culture, they've still

lost the purity that characterized our ancestors.

 

> Indians are generally infatuated and awestruck by anything and

anyone Western, and I've personally seen that there's very little an

Indian won't do to get the mercy of a Westerner.

>

 

Many of us, I'm sure, thought that "Vedic" organizations like ISKCON

would inspire Indians to reject karmi values and embrace Vedic

culture again. Certainly there has been much talk of a "golden age"

that is yet to come where everything would be just like Satya Yuga

for about 10,000 years. Yet, it has become painfully obvious that

many influential ISKCON leaders have had their imaginations stolen

by degraded karmi values, just like the Indians you referred to.

 

Here is one example

(http://www.chakra.org/discussions/GenFeb09_05.html) of a respected

ISKCON leader and scholar advocating homosexual marriages, even to

the point of blatantly disagreeing with Srila Prabhupada. Here is

another example (http://siddhanta.org/articles/speculation/btswami/)

of a former ISKCON leader publishing books rife with speculation

about UFO's, cult conspiracies, etc. And here

(http://www.yogamandir.com/index.html) is a painfully obnoxious

example of an ISKCON devotee offering courses in things like "Soul

Mate Yoga" and "Relationship Yoga." Just recently on a local ISKCON

forum, I saw a posting by one spiritual leader explaining that

Valentine's Day is actually very bona fide and that devotees could

offer "valentines" to Lord Krishna.

 

I could go on and on with similar examples, but what is even more

depressing is the silence of ISKCON's leadership on these obvious

eviations. At the risk of turning this into a political discussion,

I question how ISKCON can demand that Indians embrace Vedic values

when there are ISKCON devotees who blatantly misrepresent Vedic

culture to the innocent masses with impunity.

 

This is not to say that there aren't sincere ISKCON devotees. On the

contrary, I have met many who are conservative in their values and

not inclined towards appeasing materialistic rascals like some of

the above examples. But in my experience, these individuals are

either branded as detractors or can only object silently for fear of

being ostracized.

 

To be honest, I really don't see much difference between the

degradation being experienced by Vedic society as a whole and that

experienced by ISKCON and other sister organizations.

 

yours,

 

K

[Guest guest]

> Many of us, I'm sure, thought that "Vedic" organizations like

> ISKCON would inspire Indians to reject karmi values and embrace

> Vedic culture again.

 

None of us know what will happen next to us. But all of us will plan

for our selves, our families and community. This is built in to human

nature. Only a rare few can become a mendicant completely depending on

the lord and not desiring any thing.

 

For the rest of us, we need to have a daiva varnashrama system. This

is the desire of all acharyas of all sampradayas. Let us not say

ISKCON has failed its followers to reject karmi values and embrace

vedic culture again. The desire is already there for you or else there

is no cause for lamentation on this count. What is lacking is the will

to work towards that goal by practically creating an alternate system

that is more attractive than the current system. We have the fortune

of going through the current system and know its plusses and minusses.

We have a reasonable understanding of Vedic lifestyle - its plusses

and minusses. It is a matter of working on creating the system in

order to fulfill the desires of great devotees. There are three things

required:

 

1) Economic Model for business class

2) Defence Model for protecting followers of vedic tradition from

onslaught of detractors - legal, political, military

3) Engagement Model for working class

4) Intellectual Model is more or less in place and will perfect when

others are perfected.

 

 

At the core of it is inducing more people to chant harinam.

 

> To be honest, I really don't see much difference between the

> degradation being experienced by Vedic society as a whole and that

> experienced by ISKCON and other sister organizations.

 

 

 

When there is forest fire not only wood but even rivers appears to be

burning. This is what happened when acharyas appeared be it Sankara,

Ramanuja or Prabhupada. But when they are gone, the wood continues to

burn like fire but those who were merely reflecting superficially lose

their glitter. This is why they bring back all their materialistic

concepts. But they still have the credit of having been an ornament to

the bhakti movement.

 

Now starts the real work, which is to raise OURSELVES gradually to the

point of realizing krishna. As I say this, I know I am preoccupied

with intentions that totally to the contrary. But nevertheless, I need

to find a way to walk on the path of knowledge and devotion rather

than ignorance and evil.

[Guest guest]

On Fri, 3 Mar 2006, v_raja_ram wrote:

 

>> Many of us, I'm sure, thought that "Vedic" organizations like

>> ISKCON would inspire Indians to reject karmi values and embrace

>> Vedic culture again.

>

> None of us know what will happen next to us.

 

That's one reason why it's always wise to speak nicely to others.

 

 

 

> Only a rare few can become a mendicant completely depending on

> the lord and not desiring any thing.

>

> For the rest of us, we need to have a daiva varnashrama system. This

> is the desire of all acharyas of all sampradayas. Let us not say

> ISKCON has failed its followers to reject karmi values and embrace

> vedic culture again. The desire is already there for you or else there

> is no cause for lamentation on this count. What is lacking is the will

> to work towards that goal by practically creating an alternate system

> that is more attractive than the current system.

 

Yes. Hearing means acting.

 

 

 

> 1) Economic Model for business class

 

Should be agrarian.

 

 

 

> 2) Defence Model for protecting followers of vedic tradition from

> onslaught of detractors - legal, political, military

 

This is a tough one. I don't think we can ever expect change to come from the

top.

 

 

 

> 3) Engagement Model for working class

 

God conscious empathy and compassion are essential here.

 

 

 

> 4) Intellectual Model is more or less in place and will perfect when

> others are perfected.

 

I don't think so. Because the system is symbiotic, they all have to come

together simultaneously. Still, Srila Prabhupada always emphasizes the primary

role of the brahmanas.

 

 

 

 

> At the core of it is inducing more people to chant harinam.

 

Yes. sa vai pumsam paro dharmo, yato bhaktir adhoksaje.

 

 

 

 

>> To be honest, I really don't see much difference between the

>> degradation being experienced by Vedic society as a whole and that

>> experienced by ISKCON and other sister organizations.

>

> Now starts the real work, which is to raise OURSELVES gradually to the

> point of realizing krishna.

 

Indeed.

 

 

 

 

> As I say this, I know I am preoccupied

> with intentions that totally to the contrary. But nevertheless, I need

> to find a way to walk on the path of knowledge and devotion rather

> than ignorance and evil.

 

Your frank honesty and noble concerns are admirable.

 

Talk is an important and essential beginning, but talk is always only talk.

People who aren't willing to change their lives won't change the world either.

Weekend warriors preaching to their choir in their spare time, while also

patronizing an antithetical establishment can hardly produce the kind of dynamic

spiritual synergy with which Srila Prabhupada so quickly spread Krsna

consciousness all over the world.

 

 

MDd