Guest guest Posted March 1, 2006 Report Share Posted March 1, 2006 Hare Krishna, >>>(http://www.chakra.org/discussions/GenFeb09_05.html) of a respected ISKCON leader and scholar advocating homosexual marriages, even to the point of blatantly disagreeing with Srila Prabhupada.<<< Even I have seen Srila Prabhupada calling homosexuality demoniac etc. But if a homosexual is inclined to take up to Krishna Consciousness and cannot give up his bad habits due to past conditioning, then what is the "Vedic" position (and Gaudiya Vaisnava position if it differs from "Vedic") on this? Should we deprive him the opportunity? Apart from the one mentioned in the link, I have heard some ISKCON leaders approving these things on the basis of "compassion and mercy", "seeing them as souls", "the conditioning is of the body and in this life or next they will give it up" or "if we are so adamant about this then even we are in bodily conception as we are not seeing them as souls" etc. I would appreciate if you can throw some light on this. Your servant, Vidyadhar **************************************************************************** ************ Vidyadhar M Karmarkar Graduate Fellow, Genomics and Bioinformatics, The Huck Institute of the Life Sciences, The Pennsylvania State University, University Park, PA 16801. Lab Phone: 814-863-2513 Fax: 814-863-2312 **************************************************************************** ************ "Essential truth spoken concisely is true eloquence." - Sri Chaitanya Charitamrita Adi-Lila 1.106 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2006 Report Share Posted March 4, 2006 achintya, "Vidyadhar Karmarkar" <vmk117 wrote: > > > Even I have seen Srila Prabhupada calling homosexuality demoniac etc. But if > a homosexual is inclined to take up to Krishna Consciousness and cannot give > up his bad habits due to past conditioning, then what is the "Vedic" > position (and Gaudiya Vaisnava position if it differs from "Vedic") on this? > Should we deprive him the opportunity? If we cannot give up our bad habits, we will never attain the highest goal. This is explicitly stated in bhagavad-giitaa: BG 16.23: He who discards scriptural injunctions and acts according to his own whims attains neither perfection, nor happiness, nor the supreme destination. BG 16.24: One should therefore understand what is duty and what is not duty by the regulations of the scriptures. Knowing such rules and regulations, one should act so that he may gradually be elevated. Please note that I am not claiming to be someone without bad habits. I am only stating the point in scripture that there is no hope of attaining the highest spiritual goal without giving up the bad habits which are not regulated by scriptural injunctions. Human beings, as you know, have no authority to change what is in scripture. Of course, there is nothing stopping them from writing their own books and calling them scriptures. Unfortunately, the issue here is that some individuals want to argue on the basis of what they think is the spirit of "Vaishnava" or "Vedic" thinking, and that is where the problem lies. > Apart from the one mentioned in the link, I have heard some ISKCON leaders > approving these things on the basis of "compassion and mercy", "seeing them > as souls", "the conditioning is of the body and in this life or next they > will give it up" or "if we are so adamant about this then even we are in > bodily conception as we are not seeing them as souls" etc. So if Vedic literatures do not provide a precedent for homosexual marriages, then are your ISKCON leaders implying that the Vedas are not compassionate, not merciful, not seeing them as souls, and in short, not able to grasp the point about conditioning of the body, etc etc? Vedas do not have the answers for all human beings, and instead they need people born in the West to reinterpret them for the modern mindset? That sounds suspiciously more like Vivekananda to me. Anyway, I don't want to be accused of patronizing a corrupt establishment or whatever. I'm just tired of seeing again and again this tendency to blame India for its (admittedly undeniable) spiritual corruption, while at the same time turning a blind eye to the equally disgusting spiritual corruption of ISKCON and its sister societies. My view is that any religious organization needs to clean out its own closet before presuming to preach or point fingers at anyone else. If ISKCON wants to be compassionate to homosexuals and officially recognize their same-sex "unions," then why can it not be similarly compassionate to Indians who have lived under the yoke of racism and colonialism, and want a better life for their children? Is it that homosexuals need to be excused, because we must be compassionate to them, but at every opportunity we must remind the Indians as to what failures they are for not following their dharma? Dharma is only relevant to preaching to Indians (so we can convince them we are an authentic Vedic organization and get their generous donations), but not to everyone else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 achintya, "krishna_susarla" <krishna_susarla wrote: > > achintya, "Vidyadhar Karmarkar" <vmk117@> > wrote: > > > > > > Even I have seen Srila Prabhupada calling homosexuality demoniac > etc. But if > > a homosexual is inclined to take up to Krishna Consciousness and > cannot give > > up his bad habits due to past conditioning, then what is > the "Vedic" > > position (and Gaudiya Vaisnava position if it differs > from "Vedic") on this? > > Should we deprive him the opportunity? > How is homosexuality a 'habit' anymore than heterosexuality? That implies it can be broken. It also implies it was learned. There is no physiological nor psychological evidence for such a claim. Applying the Vedic injunction depends on tying down homosexuality to this artificial preconception. Sex in general is not something that can be 'unlearned' like a nervous tic. It is part of the basic neurological and emotional wiring of a human body. The process of bhakti addresses desire as the root cause of behavior, not the other way around. Artificially renouncing sex is treating the symption rather than the disease, which is the illusion that we are separate enjoyers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2006 Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 achintya, "Vidyadhar Karmarkar" <vmk117 wrote: > Even I have seen Srila Prabhupada calling homosexuality demoniac etc. But if a homosexual is inclined to take up to Krishna Consciousness and cannot give up his bad habits due to past conditioning, then what is the "Vedic" position (and Gaudiya Vaisnava position if it differs from "Vedic") on this? > Should we deprive him the opportunity? > Srila Prabhupada explains in his purport to BG 18.66: "In the Seventh Chapter it was said that only one who has become free from all sinful reactions can take to the worship of Lord Krsna. Thus one may think that unless he is free from all sinful reactions he cannot take to the surrendering process. To such doubts it is here said that even if one is not free from all sinful reactions, simply by the process of surrendering to Sri Krsna he is automatically freed. There is no need of strenuous effort to free oneself from sinful reactions." Thus no one should be deprived of the chance to practice Krsna consciousness. Raghu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2006 Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 achintya, "Raghu_sury" <raghu_sury wrote: > > achintya, "Vidyadhar Karmarkar" <vmk117@> wrote: > > > > Even I have seen Srila Prabhupada calling homosexuality demoniac > etc. But if a homosexual is inclined to take up to Krishna > Consciousness and cannot give up his bad habits due to past > conditioning, then what is the "Vedic" position (and Gaudiya Vaisnava > position if it differs from "Vedic") on this? > > Should we deprive him the opportunity? [snip] > Thus no one should be deprived of the chance to practice Krsna > consciousness. There was never any question of "depriving" homosexuals of the chance to practice Krishna-consciousness. Certain homosexual activists within ISKCON want that their homosexuality to be officially recognized within the framework of Vedic culture, as this article (http://www.galva108.org/Tritiya_prakriti.html) demonstrates. When such recognition is not given, they then claim they are being "deprived" of the chance to practice Krishna-consciousness. Obviously, this is pure rubbish. Spiritual progress in Krishna-consciousness requires that one have certain qualifications, and also that one has a proper guru. Shrii Chaitanya-charitaamrita, Madhya-liila, Chapter 19 explains that spiritual progress is like the cultivation of a creeper that begins with the seed received by the mercy of the guru: http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/madhya/19/151/en "According to their karma, all living entities are wandering throughout the entire universe. Some of them are being elevated to the upper planetary systems, and some are going down into the lower planetary systems. Out of many millions of wandering living entities, one who is very fortunate gets an opportunity to associate with a bona fide spiritual master by the grace of Krsna. By the mercy of both Krsna and the spiritual master, such a person receives the seed of the creeper of devotional service." No other model of spiritual progress independent of receiving a guru's mercy is acknowledged. According to Hari-bhakti vilaas (1.59-62), which lays out the rules and regulations of Gaudiya Vaishnava worship, a genuine disciple must be free from lust and anger, sinless, and in control of the senses in order to qualify for initiation. Bhagavad-giitaa 16.23 (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/16/23/en) is clear that there is no possibility of ultimate spiritual perfection without following the rules of scripture. Srila Prabhupada writes in his purport: "The word kAma-kArataH is very significant. A person who knowingly violates the rules acts in lust. He knows that this is forbidden, but still he acts. This is called acting whimsically. He knows that this should be done, but still he does not do it; therefore he is called whimsical. Such persons are destined to be condemned by the Supreme Lord. Such persons cannot have the perfection which is meant for the human life. The human life is especially meant for purifying one's existence, and one who does not follow the rules and regulations cannot purify himself, nor can he attain the real stage of happiness." Therefore, it is advised (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/16/24/en) that one must know from scripture what is and is not proper duty. A very conservative understanding of the above statements is that one cannot make any spiritual progress without accepting a guru, which in turn requires that one give up all sinful activity not allowed by scriptural injunction. Hence, the idea of practicing "regulated" homosexual monogamy and still progressing on the path of devotional service, is nonsense. Conversely, there is no "depriving" a homosexual person of the chance to practice Krishna-consciousness. If a homosexual individual wants to cultivate the creeper of devotional service, then he must do the same things that all of us are required to do: give up his bad habits and then accept a proper guru. yours, K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2006 Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 On Tue, 14 Mar 2006, krishna_susarla wrote: > There was never any question of "depriving" homosexuals of the chance > to practice Krishna-consciousness. Certain homosexual activists within > ISKCON want that their homosexuality to be officially recognized > within the framework of Vedic culture, as this article > (http://www.galva108.org/Tritiya_prakriti.html) demonstrates. When > such recognition is not given, they then claim they are > being "deprived" of the chance to practice Krishna-consciousness. Here, it's worth considering what Srila Prabhupada comments on Srimad-bhagavatam, 5.1.30: "First of all, the conditioned soul is cheated by so-called svamis, yogis and incarnations when he approaches them to be relieved of material miseries. When the conditioned soul is not satisfied with them, he comes to devotees and pure brahmanas who try to elevate him for final liberation from material bondage. However, the unscrupulous conditioned soul cannot rigidly follow the principles prohibiting illicit sex. intoxication, gambling and meat-eating. Thus he falls down and takes shelter of people who are like monkeys. In the Krsna consciousness movement these monkey disciples, being unable to follow the strict regulative principles, sometimes fall down and try to form societies based on sex. This is proof that such people are descendants of monkeys, as confirmed by Darwin. In this verse it is therefore clearly stated: yatha vanara-jateh." MDd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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