Srila Prabhupada Answers the Jiva Question

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We never had any occasion when we were separated from

Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets

himself. In dream he creates himself in different

forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This

creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or

seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over,

the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he

is in his original position.

 

Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this

body and so many relationships with other things.

First the attachment comes to enjoy sense

gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense

gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude

for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for

enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the

beach, sometimes the water covers,

sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our

position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes

free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we

forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like

as soon as we sleep, dream is there. We cannot say

therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we

try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by

Maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or

sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very,

very, very long duration, therefore many creations are

coming and going. Due to this long period of time it

is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But

his long duration of time becomes very insignificant

when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just

like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as

soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has

been a moment only. Just like with Krsna's friends,

they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when

they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they

considered that only a moment had

passed.

 

So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated

life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this

material calculation it is a long, long period, as

soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this

period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya

and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they

had to come down for their little mistake. They were

given mukti, emerging into the

Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as

demons. This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent.

Every living entity wants pleasure, but

Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal

existence only. So when they do not find

transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a

compromise with material bliss. Just like

Vivekananda founded so many schools and

hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material

and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become

a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness

and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the

position.

 

So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna,

that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one

develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up

only up to Brahmasayujya but falls

down. But after millions and millions of years of

keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when

one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes

insignificant, just like dreaming.

 

Because he falls down from Brahmasayujya, he thinks

that may be his origin, but he does not remember that

before that even he was with Krsna. So the conclusion

is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krsna

consciousness and immediately join Krsna. Just like

with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to

find out how he has become diseased, better to

spend time curing the disease.

 

On the top of the tree there is a nice tal-fruit. A

crow went there and the fruit fell down, Some

panditas, big big learned scholars saw this

and discussed: the fruit fell due to the crow

agitating the limb. No, the fruit

fell simultaneously with the crow landing and

frightened the crow so he flew away. No, the fruit was

ripe and the weight of the crow landing broke it from

the branch, and so on and so on. What is the use of

such discussions? So whether you were in the

Brahmasayujya or with Krsna in His lila, at the moment

you are in neither, so the best policy is

to develop your Krsna consciousness and go there,

never mind what is your origin.

 

Brahmasayujya and Krsna lila--both may be possible,

but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or

when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains

a mystery. But at the present moment we are in Maya's

clutches, so at present our only hope is to become

Krsna conscious and go back to Home, back to Godhead.

The real position is servant of Krsna, and

servant of Krsna means in Krsna lila. Directly

or indirectly, always we are serving Krsna's lila.

Even in dream. Just like we cannot go out of the sun

when it is daytime, so where is the chance of going

out of Krsna lila? The cloud may be there, it may

become very gray and dim, but still the sunlight is

there, everywhere, during the daytime. Because I am

part and parcel of Krsna, I am always connected. My

finger, even though it may be diseased, remains part

and parcel of my body. Therefore, we try to treat it,

cure it, because it is part and parcel. So Krsna comes

Himself when we forget Him, or He sends His

representative.

 

Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I

awaken and see myself, I see Krsna. Cause and effect

are both Krsna. Just like cotton becomes thread and

thread becomes cloth, still, the original cause is

cotton. Therefore, everything is Krsna in the ultimate

sense. When we cannot contact Krsna personally, we

contact His energies. So there is no chance to be

outside Krsna's lila. But differences we see under

different conditions. Just like in the pool of water

and in the mirror the same me is reflecting, but in

different reflections. One is shimmering, unsteady,

one is clear and fixed. Except for being in Krsna

consciousness, we cannot see our actual position

rightly, therefore the learned man sees all living

entities as the same parts and parcels of Krsna.

Material existence is impersonal because my real

personality is covered. But we should think that

because I am now covered by this clay, I am diseased,

and we should think that I must get

to business to get myself uncovered, not wonder how I

got this way. Now the fruit is there, take it and

enjoy, that is your first business. God is not bound

by cause. He can change, He is the Cause of all

Causes. Now don't waste your time with this "Kaka

taliya nyaya," crows and tal-fruit logic.

 

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

Founder-Acarya of the International Society for

Krishna Consciousness

 

=====

"Radha-Krishna prana mora jugala-kisora, jivane marane gati aro nahi mora."

 

"The divine couple, Sri Radha and Krsna, are my life and soul. In life or death

I have no other refuge but Them."

 

-- Srila Narottama Dasa Thakura

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

achintya, Sanjay Dadlani <dark_knight_9> wrote:

 

> We never had any occasion when we were separated from

> Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets

> himself. In dream he creates himself in different

> forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This

> creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or

> seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over,

> the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he

> is in his original position.

 

I wonder if this is what Srila Prabhupada meant when he wrote in his

Bhaktivedanta purport that, but for Jaya and Vijaya, no one "falls"

from Vaikuntha.

 

But then in that case, Jaya and Vijaya did not "fall" from Vaikuntha

either. After all, if bondage in the material world is really more

like a dream-like state, then the same must have held true for Jaya

and Vijaya.

 

> Maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or

> sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very,

> very, very long duration, therefore many creations are

> coming and going. Due to this long period of time it

> is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But

> his long duration of time becomes very insignificant

> when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just

> like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as

> soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has

> been a moment only.

 

This also seems inconsistent at first glance with the Vedaanta-suutra

statement regarding anaadi-karma. Unless of course, even this

beginningless karma seems like just a dream to the newly-liberated

jiiva. It is clear from Baladeva's commentary to the same that the

karma is literally beginningless. But on the other hand, why can't it

be that even this "eternal" bondage in maya seems just like an

instant to one who gets moksha?

 

> got this way. Now the fruit is there, take it and

> enjoy, that is your first business. God is not bound

> by cause. He can change, He is the Cause of all

> Causes. Now don't waste your time with this "Kaka

> taliya nyaya," crows and tal-fruit logic.

 

I agree. The point is that at this moment, we are not reunited with

Krishna in devotion. Thus, we shouldn't let this dicussion prevent us

from carrying out our devotional service. Actually, we shouldn't let

ANY discussion become a hindrance towards our Krishna-consciousness.

 

This doesn't preclude, however, a calm and inquisitive discussion on

the subject for those who are curious. That is what Achintya is for.

Discussions on any philosophical issue are welcome, so long as they

stick to shaastric evidence and obey basic points of Vaishnava

etiquette.

 

I'm not sure in what context the above letter was written. However, I

would point out that other aachaaryas including Srila Prabhupada

himself discussed this issue at one point or another both in classes

and in their writings. I am not prepared to say that such stalwart

devotees were "wasting their time." And I personally do not regard it

as a "waste of time" if some devotee comes to a stronger

understanding of the issue after discussing it politely in a forum of

Vaishnavas.

 

We don't want, for example, for devotees to misrepresent our position

on this issue in front of outsiders simply because they were

censored. That wouldn't just be fanaticism; it would be tragic.

 

Please refrain, therefore, from criticizing discussions or

discussants on this forum simply because you are uncomfortable with

them. Also please do not misuse Srila Prabhupada's words to do the

same. I am not personally comfortable with such harsh words being

pulled out of context and applied towards individuals to whom it was

not clear that they were intended. Yes, I'm aware that his vapuh is

nondifferent form his vani, but still this realization needs to be

tempered with some common sense, specifically with regards to the

historical context in which it was written. I am aware of statements

by Srila Prabhupada to the effect that his books would last for

10,000 years; but I have heard no such statement in regards to his

personal correspondence. While I agree that all of Srila Prabhupada's

writings are sacred, we have to understand that some were written for

the general audience while others were directed at specific

individuals and/or a general audience at a specific time.

 

Again, I would point out the example of Srila Prabhupada's personal

letters sanctioning divorce and remarriage, among other things.

 

As always, I am available for constructive feedback at

achintya-owner.

 

regards,

 

Krishna Susarla

moderator