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Hare Krishna

Please accept my humble obesiances unto your lotus feet -

 

Thank you Sri Kishore for posting your message here. Your views as

presented in your message I think is the general view of most hindus

who are not following any of the 4 bonafide disciplic successions and

are under either the influence of academic presentation of Vedic

religion or neo-vedantic[also advaitic] presentation of the same. It

is my humble request at your lotus feet that if you think that our

[the gaudiya devotees here] scripture based replies are bonafide then

kindly forward our views amongst your friends and colleagues who you

think have the same view as yours.

 

 

achintya, kishore shrishti <s00234> wrote:

> dear friend,

>

> I am kishore , who is running the group

>

> holygita

>

>

>

> it will be my pleasure if u can please tell me your interests and

your expectations from this club.

 

You can have the idea of the same by reading the information on our

web page. It clearly defines our interests and expectations.

 

 

> I firmly believe that everyone is god

 

On what basis you have made this your belief ? On the basis of

advaitins and neo -vedantist. In the scriptures there is bedha and

abedha both very clearly described.

 

some abedha instances are --

Chandogya Upanisad 3.14.1):

"Everything is Brahman."

Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad 4.4.19 and Katha Upanisad 2.1.11:

"Nothing is different from Brahman."

Aitareya Upanisad 1.5.3:

"Brahman is consciousness."

Chandogya Upanisad 6.8.7:

"O Svetaketu, you are that."

Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad 1.4.10:

"I am Brahman".

 

 

they teach that the material world and the individual souls are all

Brahman, that there is nothing but Brahman. What is the nature of

Brahman? That is explained in another place in the Vedas. In the

Svetasvatara Upanisad (6.8) it is said:

"The Supreme Lord has nothing to achieve nor He has any instrument of

action. Nothing is equal to Him or greater than Him. His inherent

great potency is manifested variously, and thus His deeds are

automatically performed as a natural sequence providing Him full

knowledge, power and pastimes."

In these words Brahman and Brahman's potency are accepted as one.

Here it is said that the potency is the property (svabhaviki) of

Brahman, and it is also said that the potency is manifested in many

different ways (vividha). Because the potency and the master who

possesses the potency are not different, it may certainly be said

that nothing is different from Brahman. However, when we look at the

material world, we can also see that in another sense Brahman and His

potency are certainly different. Since the potency and the source are

not absolutely identical. In the Vedas (Katha Upanisad 2.13 and

Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.10) it is said:

"The Supreme Lord is eternal and the living beings are eternal. The

Supreme Lord is cognisant and the living beings are cognisant. The

difference is that the Supreme Lord is supplying the necessities of

life for the many other living entities."*

In these words of the Vedas variety is accepted as an eternal fact.

In the other passages of the Vedas (Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.8) the

Lord's potency and His knowledge, power, and pastimes are also

considered, in one sense, to be different from Him.

Now let us consider these words of Aitareya Upanisad (1.5.3):

"Brahman is consciousness."

Here is it said that Brahman is identical with consciousness. The

nature of consciousness is described in these words of Brhad-aranyaka

Upanisad (4.4.21):

"A wise man who understands the Supreme falls in love with Him."

Here the word 'prajna' does not mean merely 'consciousness'. Here it

means 'love and devotion'.

 

Now let us consider these words of Chandogya Upanisad (6.8.7):

"O Svetaketu, you are that."

These words supposedly teach that the Supreme Lord and the individual

spirit soul are identical. However, the proper explanation of these

words is found in this passage from the Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad

(3.8.10):

"He is a miserly man who does not solve the problems of life as a

human and who thus quits this world like the cats and dogs, without

understanding the science of self-realisation."*

The words 'tat tvam asi' therefore actually mean "He who has attained

devotion to the Lord is a true brahmana."

 

Now let us consider these words of Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad (1.4.10):

"I am Brahman".

Some thinkers say that the knowledge described in these words does

not culminate in devotional service as its final attainment. This

idea is criticised by these words of Isa Upanisad (mantra 9):

"Those who engage in the culture of nescient activities shall enter

into the darkest region of ignorance. Worse still are those engaged

in the culture of so-called knowledge."*

These words mean that persons who are ignorant and do not know that

they are pure spirit souls enter into terrible blinding darkness.

However, they who, even though they become free from that ignorance,

foolishly think that the individual soul is Brahman and not a tiny

particle of spirit, enter into an even more terrible blinding

darkness of ignorance. The Vedas are like an ocean that has no shore.

One should carefully study each mantra of each Upanisad and then one

should study the Upanisads together as a whole. In that way one will

understand the true meaning of the Vedas. However, if one only

studies a few passages here and there, the conclusion he gets at the

end will be horrible and wrong. Therefore, after carefully studying

all the branches of the Vedas, Sriman Mahaprabhu taught the final

conclusion: that the individual spirit souls and the material world

are simultaneously, inconceivably one and different from the Supreme

Personality of Godhead.

 

Hence due to identity of potent and the potency in one way everything

is God as u say but at the same time everything is not God or God

transcends everything since the potent and potency are different from

each other also. So there neither is absolute identity between energy

and energetic possible neither absolute difference. But the

inconcievable simultaneous difference and non-difference is the true

teaching of vedas.

 

If you were still to insist that absolute identity is the only fact

then kindly explain to me the following verses -

 

In the Taittiriya Upanisad (2.1) it is said:

"One who understands the Supreme, attains the Supreme."

In the Katha Upanisad (1.2.22 and 2.1.4) it is said:

"A wise man who meditates on the all-pervading Supreme Soul never

laments."

In the Taittiriya Aranyaka, First Anuvaka, it is said:

"Brahman is limitless, eternal and all-knowing. A person who knows

that Brahman stays both in the spiritual sky and in the hearts of all

creatures attains Brahman. He associates with the all-knowing

Brahman. All his desires are fulfilled."

In the Svetasvatara Upanisad (3.9) it is said:

"There is no truth superior to that Supreme Person because He is the

supermost. He is smaller than the smallest and He is greater than the

greatest. He is situated as a silent tree, and He illumines the

transcendental sky, and as a tree spreads its roots, He spreads His

extensive energies."*

In the Svetasvatara Upanisad (6.16) it is said:

"The Supreme Person is fully aware of everything. He is the

Supersoul, the master of all transcendental qualities."*

In the Katha Upanisad (2.23) and the Mundaka Upanisad (3.2.3) it is

said:

"The Supreme Lord is attained only by one who He Himself chooses. To

such a person he manifests His own form."

In the Svetasvatara Upanisad (3.19) it is said:

"Learned transcendentalists explain that God is the greatest, the

original person."*

In the Isa Upanisad (mantra 8) it is said:

"The Supreme Personality of Godhead has been fulfilling everyone's

desires since time immemorial."

In the Kena Upanisad (3.6 and 3.10) it is said:

"I do not understand who this yaksa is."

In the Taittiriya Upanisad (2.7) it is said:

"In the beginning only the Supreme existed. From Him everything was

born. Then He personally appeared within the world. That is why He is

called 'sukrta' (the creator)."

In the Katha Upanisad (2.13) and the Svetasvatara Upanisad (6.13) it

is said:

"Of all eternal beings one is the most important."

In the Mandukya Upanisad (mantra 2) it is said:

"The Supreme soul is the greatest. He is everything. He manifests in

four forms."

In the Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad (2.5.14) it is said:

"All living beings find that the Supreme Person is sweet like nectar."

In these and countless other passages, the Vedas declare that the

individual souls are eternally different from the Supreme. Every part

of the Vedas is beautiful and good. No part should be rejected. That

the individual souls are eternally different from the Supreme is the

truth. That the individual souls are eternally non-different from the

Supreme is also the truth. Both are true simultaneously. All the

Vedas declare that difference and non difference are both true. This

simultaneous difference and non difference is inconceivable, beyond

the power of human intelligence to understand. Applying material

logic to understand it will bring only confusion. What the Vedas

speak is always the truth. The Vedas' statements should not be

rejected merely because they are beyond the understanding of our tiny

human intelligence. In the Katha Upanisad (1.2.9) it is said:

"Ordinary material logic cannot be used to disprove the truths taught

by the Vedas."

In the Kena Upanisad (2.2) it is said:

"I do not think, 'I do not know anything about the Supreme'. Neither

do I think, 'I know everything about the Supreme'."

In these passages the Vedas declare that the Lord's potency is

inconceivable. Therefore material logic is not the proper tool with

which to understand the Lord's potency. In the Mahabharata it is said:

"The Puranas, Manu-samhita, the Vedas with all their limbs and the

science of Vedic medicine are the words of the Supreme Personality of

Godhead. They are His commands. Material logic cannot refute them."

Thus simultaneous oneness and difference is the pure truth, the

conclusion taught by the Vedas.

 

So also in the brahma sutra it is said--

 

Let us inquire about the Absolute.

 

Here also the difference between the jivatma and paramatma is

stressed. If both were same then there is no need to conduct the

enquiry into brahman. And if you say no this brahman is a synynom for

atman used in brahma-sutra then that is also in correct because Srila

Vyas deva himself states who he refers to by brahman -

 

The Supreme Absolute is the source of everything.

 

similarly in Holy gita which is the essence of all upanisads Lord

says -

 

Chapter 10, Verse 8.

I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything

emanates from Me. The wise who know this perfectly engage in My

devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts.

 

Chapter 7, Verse 6.

Of all that is material and all that is spiritual in this world, know

for certain that I am both its origin and dissolution.

 

Chapter 7, Verse 7.

O conqueror of wealth [Arjuna], there is no Truth superior to Me.

Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread.

 

This is a very very simple presentation of few quotations from the

vast ocean of vedic literature which is sufficient to challenge the

view of advaita. Everything/everyone is God.

 

please let me know what you think of the above. once we settle this

advaitic point raised by you we can proceed to the other points.

 

Towards the end let me offer my respectful obesiances from all

directions unto the lotus feet of Srila bhaktivinode thakura without

whose mercifull compilation name jaiva dharma this article wouldn't

be possible.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Any mistake in the above is fault of this ignorant fool and should

not be viewed as a loop hole in the flawless achintya bedha-abheda

philosphy of sriman mahaprabhu.

 

With Love

Your Servant Always

OM TAT SAT

Sumeet.

Sir please reflect upon this and then tell us what do u think after

which we can address your other points.