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>I'm sure they must talk about it but

>they won't describe it to great lenghts

>and for sure i know this type of

>liberation is not emphasized at all in

>the prashan-traya and bhagavata.

 

This type of argument is very common among devotees.

They will say, "No where in the Vedas is it taught

XYZ," but the reality is they have never read the

Vedas so their statements are meaningless. This is

just an observation worth noting. When we discuss with

people of other traditions we should be careful not to

employ this technique, as they will identify it within

a second and call our bluff.

 

Now from a logical perspective, if we can accept that

the Vedas deal extensively with pravritti-marga, how

to entangle oneself in material existence eternally

through karma-kanda, then why is it difficult to

accept that the Vedas may speak something about

impersonal realization or sayujya-mukti.

 

>I agree that Vedas speak not only

>of the Devotional service. But before

>saying that Jnaana Khanda of Vedas

>don't cause transcendental love of

>God you must identify what part of

>Vedas are you refering to as Jnaana

>Khanda.

 

The three divisions of the Vedas, which up till a few

days ago were universally accepted by Gaudiya

Vaishnavas, and which have been explained clearly by

Srila Prabhupada, refered to sections of the Vedas

that dealt with particular fields of knowledge. They

did not refer to particular books. Where ever karma is

dealt with in a text, that section is karma-kanda,

where ever jnana is dealt with in a text, that section

is jnana-kanda, and where ever bhakti is dealt with in

a text, that section is upasana-kanda. The jnana-kanda

is primarily found in the Upanishads, for it is the

Upanishads that deal with transcendence and the method

to attain it (nivritti marga) which are pre-requisites

for the jnana-kanda.

 

 

>I would like to repeat that

>there is nothing like impersonal

>speculative knowledge taught anywhere

>in the prashan-traya or bhagavata.

 

I would suggest you read the first few verses of the

12th chapter of Gita, and Srila Prabhupada's purports

to them. The fact that Arjuna even asks Krishna "who

is the higher transcendentalist, the bhakta or the

jnani?" should be enough to logically conclude

jnana-marga (and sayujya-mukti) are taught in the

Vedas. In the Gita itself the path of jnana-yoga is

explained, but stated to be inferior to bhakti. Gita

12.3-5 directly explain the process of jnana-yoga. How

can we claim there is no mention of jnana-yoga in the

Gita? The Gita teaches three subjects, namely

karma-yoga, jnana-yoga and bhakti-yoga, ultimately

establishing bhakti yoga as the highest. Gaudiya

Vaishnavas have given a technical definition to the

terms karma, jnana and bhakti. When we say jnana, we

are not simply refering to knowledge (such as defined

by Krishna in Gita 13.3). We are refering to a

particular path of self-realization adopted for a

particular purpose (i.e. due to a cause or desired

aim). Perhaps, though we are all using the same words,

in our minds we are all speaking of different things,

and as a result there is confusion. To be clear,

"jnana" does not refer to atma-vidya, nor divya-jnana,

etc. It refers to the path of impersonal realization

of the absolute, which results in sayujya-mukti. For

this reason it is called as "poison" by Vaishnava

acharyas.

 

The following purport by Srila Prabhupada, to the

first verse of the 12th chapter is relevant:

 

arjuna uvaca

evam satata-yukta ye

bhaktas tvam paryupasate

ye capy aksaram avyaktam

tesam ke yoga-vittamah

 

"Arjuna inquired: Which is considered to be more

perfect, those who are properly engaged in Your

devotional service, or those who worship the

impersonal Brahman, the unmanifested?"

 

Purport:

 

"Krsna has now explained about the personal, the

impersonal and the universal and has described all

kinds of devotees and yogis. Generally, the

transcendentalists can be divided into two classes.

One is the impersonalist, and the other is the

personalist. The personalist devotee engages himself

with all energy in the service of the Supreme Lord.

The impersonalist engages himself not directly in the

service of Krsna but in meditation on the impersonal

Brahman, the unmanifested."

 

"We find in this chapter that of the different

processes for realization of the Absolute Truth,

bhakti-yoga, devotional service, is the highest. If

one at all desires to have the association of the

Supreme Personality of Godhead, then he must take to

devotional service."

 

"Those who worship the Supreme Lord directly by

devotional service are called personalists. Those who

engage themselves in meditation on the impersonal

Brahman are called impersonalists. Arjuna is here

questioning which position is better. There are

different ways to realize the Absolute Truth, but

Krsna indicates in this chapter that bhakti-yoga, or

devotional service to Him, is highest of all. It is

the most direct, and it is the easiest means for

association with the Godhead."

 

"In the Second Chapter the Lord explains that a living

entity is not the material body but is a spiritual

spark, a part of the Absolute Truth. In the Seventh

Chapter He speaks of the living entity as part and

parcel of the supreme whole and recommends that he

transfer his attention fully to the whole. In the

Eighth Chapter it is stated that whoever thinks of

Krsna at the moment of death is at once transferred to

the spiritual sky, Krsna's abode. And at the end of

the Sixth Chapter the Lord says that out of all the

yogis, he who thinks of Krsna within himself is

considered to be the most perfect. So throughout the

Gita personal devotion to Krsna is recommended as the

highest form of spiritual realization. Yet there are

those who are still attracted to Krsna's impersonal

brahmajyoti effulgence, which is the all-pervasive

aspect of the Absolute Truth and which is unmanifest

and beyond the reach of the senses. Arjuna would like

to know which of these two types of transcendentalists

is more perfect in knowledge. In other words, he is

clarifying his own position because he is attached to

the personal form of Krsna. He is not attached to the

impersonal Brahman. He wants to know whether his

position is secure. The impersonal manifestation,

either in this material world or in the spiritual

world of the Supreme Lord, is a problem for

meditation. Actually one cannot perfectly conceive of

the impersonal feature of the Absolute Truth.

Therefore Arjuna wants to say, "What is the use of

such a waste of time?" Arjuna experienced in the

Eleventh Chapter that to be attached to the personal

form of Krsna is best because he could thus understand

all other forms at the same time and there was no

disturbance to his love for Krsna. This important

question asked of Krsna by Arjuna will clarify the

distinction between the impersonal and personal

conceptions of the Absolute Truth."

 

 

 

 

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font-family:Arial">Hare Krishna! Jaya Prabhupada!

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">I don't think anyone is suggesting that there is no such

thing as karma-kaanda, jnaana-kaanda,

etc. Nor do I think it is being postulated that jnaana-kaanda

is exactly the same as bhakti-yoga. Rather, I think

the issue is one of clarification of what these things mean and what their

relationships are to each other.

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">achintya, "J.N.

Das" <jndas> wrote:

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">> To be honest, I think some would be very surprised at

font-family:Arial">> what is actually taught in the

shastras. The shastras

font-family:Arial">> provide information on sadhanas

for all levels of

font-family:Arial">> people aiming at all

destinations. It is not that

font-family:Arial">> everywhere it is taught to

chant Hare Krishna, or to

font-family:Arial">> worship Krishna. To argue

that it is so only reveals

font-family:Arial">> our own lack of knowledge on

the subject and will

font-family:Arial">> bring us criticism from those who have studied broader

font-family:Arial">> traditions. We should be

careful not to provide others

font-family:Arial">> an opportunity to dismiss our

philosophy on the

font-family:Arial">> grounds of our own mistakes.

Sri Krishna is the object

font-family:Arial">> of all the Vedas, but how He

is the object of the

font-family:Arial">> Vedas must be understood.

font-family:Arial">

Jahnava-Nitai's point here

is well taken, and I urge everyone to pay attention to it. We definitely do NOT

want to overstep our bounds when we discuss scriptures with which we are not

intimately familiar. We run the risk of making obvious mistakes that will be

picked up and refuted by members of other Vedaanta

schools, and this will in turn reflect badly on the devotional scholarship of

our own aachaaryas.

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">On the other hand, it is precisely BECAUSE of this point

that I brought up the whole jnaana issue, because

compared to other Vaishnavas, it appears that we have

a more negative attitude towards "jnaana."

We need to clarify such terms lest we find ourselves being criticized by other

Vaishnavas for not properly understanding shruti. I don't object to calling a

spade a spade, but we

have to know the scriptural basis of what we are talking about.

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">"Jnaana" appears to have

several definitions within our own literature. From _Bhagavad-Gita As It Is_

glossary, we find the following:

font-family:Arial">

j~naana -

transcendental knowledge

j~naana-yoga - the

path of spiritual realization through a speculative philosophical search for

truth

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">Note that these definitions seem to contradict each other.

It also seems to imply that there is a jnaana-yoga

that refers to a path of cultivating transcendental knowledge (or else, why is

jnaana defined like this?), and that there is another jnaana that refers to

"speculative philosophical

search for truth."

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">Here is yet another take on jnaana:

font-family:Arial">

bahuunaa.m janmanaamante j~naanavaanmaa.m prapadyante |

vaasudevaH sarvamiti sa mahaatmaa

sudurlabhaH || giitaa 7.19

||

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">After many births and deaths, he who is actually in

knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the

cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare. (bhagavad-giitaa 7.19)

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">Clear, this "jnaana" is

neither impersonal nor poison, as it leads to surrender to Lord Krishna.

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">From the above evidence, we can conclude that there are at

least two definitions of jnaana. One refers to

cultivation of knowledge of the soul, the Supersoul,

matter, the similarities/differences between them, etc, or in other words, “transcendental

knowledge.” The other definition of jnaana

refers to the maayaavaadi one.

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">The confusion I think, is that maayavaadis tend to use the term "jnaana

yoga" inappropriately to begin with. They are interested in the jnaana-kaanda of

the Upanishads, but they misinterpret it

to think that it involves realization of some absolute oneness. Hence, we use

the terms "jnaana" and "jnaana-kaanda" in the maayaavaadi

sense when we criticize it. But the real jnaana is

still something else entirely.

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">The basic objection is to the following statement:

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">"Jnana-kanda involves

realizing the Absolute truth in impersonal

feature for the

purpose of becoming one. The Upanishads explain this

path."

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">Although I am no scholar of the Upanishads, I don't think I

have read anything to suggest a path in which "becoming one" with God

is taught. I would be interested in seeing evidence substantiating this path.

On the other hand, I am aware of pramaanas that

clearly speak to the contrary, such as:

font-family:Arial">

nityo nityaanaa.m chetanash chetanaanaam.... (kaTha

upaniShad 2.2.13)

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">... which speaks of one eternal

Supreme Lord among many other eternal, conscious living entities.

font-family:Arial">

sa.myuktametat kSharamkShara.m cha vyaktaavyakta.m

bharate vishvamiishaH |

aniishashchaatmaa badhyate bhoktR^ibhaavaaj j~naatvaa deva.m muchyate

sarvapaashaiH || shve up 1.8 ||

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">The Lord is the Support of this universe which consists of a

combination of the mutable and the immutable and also the manifest and the

unmanifest. As long as the soul is unaware of God he is

enslaved to worldly enjoyments because of his bondage. But when he gets

realization of Him he becomes free from all fetters. (shvetaashvataropaniShat 1.8)

font-family:Arial">

yasya deve paraa bhaktiryathaa

deve tathaa gurau |

tasyaite kathitaa hyarthaaH prakaashante mahaatmanaH prakaashante mahaatmanaH || shve up 6.23 ||

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">Only in a man who has the deepest love for God, and who

shows the same love toward his teacher as toward God, do these points declared

by the Noble One shine forth. (shveetaashvataropaniShat

6.23)

font-family:Arial">

tam tvaupaniShada.m puruSha.m pR^ichchhaami || bR^ihad up. 9.21

||

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">I ask thee about that Person who is taught in the

Upanishads. (bR^ihadaaranyaka

upaniShad 9.21)

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">Obviously, these are not representative, and I hope you

don't think I'm insulting your intelligence by pointing them out. The point is,

that these verses clearly have a devotional and dualist

flavor to them. There was actually another pramaana I

was looking for, also I believe from

font-family:Arial">Shvetaashvatara U. which

condemns that saadhaka who cannot recognize the

difference between the jiiva and Paramaatma.

I wish I could locate it, but alas I'm having trouble doing so. All I wanted to

show here is that the Upanishads are not obviously monistic nor impersonalist in their outlook.

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">Even more important is the evidence from Govinda-bhaashya. We

have a tendency to say that the Vedaanta-suutra is Shrii Vyaasa's exposition on

the impersonal feature of the

Godhead. But this is not borne out by Baladeva's

commentary. For example:

font-family:Arial">

janmaadyasya yataH || vs 1.1.2 ||

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">He, from whom proceeds the creation, preservation, and

reconstruction of the universe, is Brahman. (vedaanta-suutra 1.1.2)

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">This occurs in a context which specifically refutes the idea

that Brahman is anything else, i.e, the brahmin

font-family:Arial">varna, Lord Brahmaa, the Vedas, any big thing, or the jiiva.

In his commentary, Baladeva

writes:

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">"Therefore the word Brahman applies only to God, as it

denotes the possession of unlimited and unsurpassed attributes, and is valid

only with regard to God,"

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">This is clearly not a description of the impersonal

brahmajyoti. This is made all the more clear in suutra 1.1.4 which states that

Vishnu is the subject matter

of all the Vedas. Baladeva's commentary on this suutra leaves no doubt that

Brahman is described in all the

Vedas, and that this Brahman is Krishna.

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">There are other places in the commentary in which the

innumerable, transcendental attributes of Brahman are described.

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">Where in the Upanishads is a path of “oneness”

suggested, even one that is according to our understanding of sayujya mukti? Note that I am

asking this because I am certain other Vaishnavas

will eventually. We need to know that this is in fact the case, instead of just

saying that it is so. We have to see pramaanas from

the Upanishads, because merely quoting our aachaaryas

will not convince them. In other words, we should be able to prove that our

aachaaryas know what they are talking about.

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">> Srila Narottama

Das Thakur is quite clear in stating

font-family:Arial">> the "jnana-kanda"

and "karma-kanda" divisions of the

font-family:Arial">> Vedas are like poison to the bhaktas,

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">Can you provide the exact reference, please, with

translation? I’m interested to know if he specifically referred to the

Vedas.

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial"> and Krishna

font-family:Arial">> instructs Arjuna to not be

bewildered by the flowery

font-family:Arial">> words of the karma-kanda section of the Vedas.

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">But in that situation, Krishna is clearly

criticizing the karmis who become attracted to the “flowery

words” of the Vedas, and believe that there is nothing more than that. Krishna’s

criticism is directed towards the karmis, but not the

karma-kaanda.

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">Perhaps what we *should*

be saying, or in other words what our aachaaryas

intend when they say it, is that karma-kaanda and jnaana-kaanda are stepping

stones towards developing bhakti, but become misleading when the devotee gets

fixated

on them, without advancing towards bhakti. Such

people are prone to misinterpreting the jnaana-kaanda

towards impersonalist conclusions.

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">> If one wants to argue that the jnana-kanda

somehow

font-family:Arial">> actually refers to pure

devotional service (on the

font-family:Arial">> grounds that the Vedas only

speak about bhakti and

font-family:Arial">> nothing else), then one must carry the same argument

font-family:Arial">> to the karma-kanda section of the Vedas as well. This

font-family:Arial">> is absolutely not true. The Vedas provide all

font-family:Arial">> knowledge for all classes of

people, thus they are

font-family:Arial">> known as a desire treee. For

those who want to enjoy

font-family:Arial">> in the material world, the Vedas

provide them

font-family:Arial">> knowledge by which they may

eternally remain in

font-family:Arial">> ignorance.

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">But even karma and jnaana

according to the Vedas have ultimately the purpose of bringing one to the

platform of devotional service. I am not arguing that they are pure devotional

service, but only that they are some kind of indirect devotional service.

Evidence:

font-family:Arial">

ye'pyanyadevataabhaktaa yajante shraddhayaanvitaaH |

te'pi maameva kaunteya yajantyavidhipuurvakam || giitaa

9.23 ||

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">Those who are devotees of other gods and who worship them

with faith actually worship only Me, O son of Kuntii,

but they do so in a wrong way. (bhagavad-giitaa

9.23)

font-family:Arial">

tasmaad o.m ityudaahR^itya yaj~nadaanatapaHkriyaaH |

pravartante vidhaanoktaaH satata.m brahmavaadinaam || giitaa 17.24

||

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">Therefore, transcendentalists undertaking performances of

sacrifice, charity and penance in accordance with scriptural regulations begin

always with 'om,' to attain the Supreme. (bhagavad-giitaa 17.24)

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">We should also keep in mind Srila Baladeva Vidyabhuushana’s

commentary on the Vedaanta:

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">“As regards the objection that the Vedas teach the

attainment of phenomenal things, like getting rain, procuring a son, or

acquiring Heaven, we answer thus: These are taught in the Vedas, as incitement

to the acquirement of divine wisdom by baby souls; and to produce a faith in

mankind. For when one sees that the Vedic mantras have the efficacy of

producing rain, etc., then he gets faith in them and has an inclination to

study them, and thus comes ultimately to discriminate the real and the

transitory, the permanent and the illusory things of the universe, and thus

gets love of Brahman and disgust with the phenomenal. Therefore, all the Vedas

teach Brahman. Moreover, sacrifices, etc., taught in the Vedas produce

phenomenal results, etc., only then when the kaama or

strong will force is joined with the mantras. Those very sacrifices lead towards

the purification of mind and illumination of the soul, when performed without

such a desire for phenomenon. Thus Karmakaanda itself

by teaching the worship of various devataas, becomes part of Brahmajnaana and

is really the worship of Brahman, when the element of desire is excluded. Such a

worship purifies the heart and gives a taste for Brahman

enquiry and does not produce any other phenomenal desire.” (govinda-bhaaShya 1.1.4)

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">> Further, the desire to merge into the impersonal

font-family:Arial">> effulgence of Godhead is not Mayavada (the concept

font-family:Arial">> that Brahman becomes covered by illusion). Jnani's are

font-family:Arial">> not mayavadi's,

they are spiritualists who are

font-family:Arial">> attracted to the impersonal feature of the absolute

font-family:Arial">> and who aim to become one with

it.

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">In other words, you are referring to what Atma-Tattva dasa

calls “brahmavaadis.”

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">Still, we need to show that there is evidence of the

brahmavaadi point of view in the Upanishads. It is clear to

me from the Giitaa verses you quoted, i.e.

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">> Bhagavad Gita

12:3-5 details this subject.

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">… but other Vaishnavas differ with our interpretation

of these verses. Maadhvas say that the “avyakta”

referred to there is Lakshmi, while Sri Vaishnavas say it is the jiiva.

So in the end, we have to go back to the Upanishads.

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">> The following statement by Srila

Prabhupada clearly

font-family:Arial">> explains the faults of jnana-yoga:

font-family:Arial">>

font-family:Arial">> "A living entity is eternally an individual soul,

and

font-family:Arial">> if he wants to merge into the

spiritual whole, he may

font-family:Arial">> accomplish the realization of the eternal and

font-family:Arial">> knowledgeable aspects of his

original nature, but the

font-family:Arial">> blissful portion is not

realized. By the grace of some

font-family:Arial">> devotee, such a

transcendentalist, highly learned in

font-family:Arial">> the process of jnana-yoga, may come to the point of

font-family:Arial">> bhakti-yoga, or devotional service. At that time, long

font-family:Arial">> practice in impersonalism also becomes a source of

font-family:Arial">> trouble, because he cannot give up the idea. Therefore

font-family:Arial">> an embodied soul is always in

difficulty with the

font-family:Arial">> unmanifest, both at the time

of practice and at the

font-family:Arial">> time of realization. Every

living soul is partially

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">And this is very clear. But we still need to show that the

idea of jiiva merging into the Brahman effulgence is

actually given in the Upanishads. Either that, or we

will be challenged to substantiate our opinions and fall short.

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">Yours,

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial;mso-no-proof:yes">H. Krishna Susarla

12.0pt">www.achintya.org

12.0pt;mso-no-proof:yes">

12.0pt">

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> This type of argument is very common among devotees.

> They will say, "No where in the Vedas is it taught

> XYZ," but the reality is they have never read the

> Vedas so their statements are meaningless. This is

> just an observation worth noting. When we discuss with

> people of other traditions we should be careful not to

> employ this technique, as they will identify it within

> a second and call our bluff.

 

That is true. What he should have said is: "I have never seen anything

in the Upanishads which teach the path of becoming one with Brahman, and

I cannot accept that they do until I see the evidence."

 

In that case, I think the very reasonable response would be to provide

the shaastric pramaanas so that we can see for sure and be done with it.

 

 

After all, we can't accept that the Upanishads teach sayujya mukti

unless we can prove it to others. We could just believe that they do

because Srila Prabhupada says so, but how would that make Srila

Prabhupada look if another Vaishnava were to call OUR bluff?

 

> Now from a logical perspective, if we can accept that

> the Vedas deal extensively with pravritti-marga, how

> to entangle oneself in material existence eternally

> through karma-kanda, then why is it difficult to

> accept that the Vedas may speak something about

> impersonal realization or sayujya-mukti.

 

It won't be difficult to accept at all, if we can see explicit evidence

for the same.

 

> The three divisions of the Vedas, which up till a few

> days ago were universally accepted by Gaudiya

> Vaishnavas, and which have been explained clearly by

 

No one is disputing the three divisions of the Vedas. The objection is

only in regards to what each division is teaching and how they are to be

regarded. It's a very strong statement to regard any part of the Vedas

as "poison." We have to know what we are talking about, or other

Vedaantists will see such claims as presumptuous.

 

So far the only "jnaana" I have seen in the Upanishads is in regards to

the properties of Brahman, the jiiva, the material nature, etc. I have

yet to see anything teaching oneness philosophy, even in the brahmavaadi

sense. Not that I am an Upanishad expert, mind you. I just need to see

the evidence.

 

Most of what I know from the Upanishads comes from reading the

Govinda-bhaashya. I see very little there that is clearly in reference

to the impersonal brahmajyoti or sayujya mukti. In fact, I am surprised

as to just how "personalist" the Vedaanta-suutra is.

 

> establishing bhakti yoga as the highest. Gaudiya

> Vaishnavas have given a technical definition to the

> terms karma, jnana and bhakti. When we say jnana, we

> are not simply refering to knowledge (such as defined

> by Krishna in Gita 13.3). We are refering to a

> particular path of self-realization adopted for a

> particular purpose (i.e. due to a cause or desired

> aim).

 

Precisely. These are GAUDIIYA definitions. Others may not accept those

definitions, which again suggests that we must be careful when he use

those words. At the very least, we have to qualify strong statements

with an explanation of the Gaudiiya definitions.

 

Perhaps, though we are all using the same words,

> in our minds we are all speaking of different things,

> and as a result there is confusion. To be clear,

> "jnana" does not refer to atma-vidya, nor divya-jnana,

> etc. It refers to the path of impersonal realization

> of the absolute, which results in sayujya-mukti. For

> this reason it is called as "poison" by Vaishnava

> acharyas.

 

That is fine, as long as we can SHOW that such a "jnaana" exists. We

have not done so yet.

 

> The following purport by Srila Prabhupada, to the

> first verse of the 12th chapter is relevant:

>

> arjuna uvaca

> evam satata-yukta ye

> bhaktas tvam paryupasate

> ye capy aksaram avyaktam

> tesam ke yoga-vittamah

>

> "Arjuna inquired: Which is considered to be more

> perfect, those who are properly engaged in Your

> devotional service, or those who worship the

> impersonal Brahman, the unmanifested?"

 

But keep in mind that "impersonal Brahman" is NOWHERE in the Sanskrit in

that verse. Sure, it is a reasonable interpretation, and one that I

happen to accept as correct. Furthermore, it is only implied, but NOT

explicitly stated, that the worshippers of the "avyakta" are those that

are destined towards sayujya mukti. Again, we can accept it as such, but

what evidence exists in the Upanishads to substantiate that such a path

exists?

 

Again, this is why we need explicit evidence from the Upanishads.

Otherwise, all we can argue is what Srila Prabhupada has taught, but we

won't be able to prove it objectively.

 

Yours,

 

- K

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"The confusion I think, is that maayavaadis tend to use the term "jnaana yoga"

inappropriately to begin with. They are interested in the jnaana-kaanda of the

Upanishads, but they misinterpret it to think that it involves realization of

some absolute oneness. Hence, we use the terms "jnaana" and "jnaana-kaanda" in

the maayaavaadi sense when we criticize it. But the real jnaana is still

something else entirely."

 

Yes, I think this is the way to resolve the Gaudiya condemnation of

"jnana-khanda of the Vedas". Even

in Lord Chaitanya's time, Mayavadi influence was felt

and even today, I would guess, more people affiliate themselves with Shankara

than with a particular Vaishnava

acharya. Therefore, it seems reasonable to use "jnana" in

the commonly understood sense and then criticize it.

 

 

ys

Gerald

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