Guest guest Posted May 13, 2002 Report Share Posted May 13, 2002 Who wrote Bhagavad Gita? color:#000002"> Verdana;color:#000002">For tho color:#000002">se of us Verdana;color:#000002">, who are thei Verdana;color:#000002">s color:#000002">ts Verdana;color:#000002">, the an color:#000002">swer is Verdana;color:#000002"> color:#000002">simple: Bhagavad Gita i Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">s Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic"> a Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">s Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">et of in Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">s Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">truction Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">s Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic"> given by Lord Kri Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">s Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">hna to Arjuna during the Kuruk Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">shetra Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic"> war. They were Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">s Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">ub Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">s Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">equently compiled by Ved Vya color:#000002;font-style:italic">s Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">. color:#000002"> Is Verdana;color:#000002"> there another point of view? Ye Verdana;color:#000002">s color:#000002">. I am putting forth the one held out by the di Verdana;color:#000002">s color:#000002">tinguis Verdana;color:#000002">hed hi color:#000002">storian Late A L Ba color:#000002">sham. He argues Verdana;color:#000002"> that BG wa color:#000002">s written by atlea 10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:#000002">s 10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:#000002">t color:#000002"> 3 different per color:#000002">son Verdana;color:#000002">s color:#000002">. He has Verdana;color:#000002"> given hi color:#000002">s arguments Verdana;color:#000002">. I will produce them one at a time and we can go over them. Verdana;color:#000002">I don't agree with A L Ba Verdana;color:#000002">s color:#000002">ham and I have refutal 10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:#000002">s Verdana;color:#000002"> for every point he put Verdana;color:#000002">s color:#000002"> forth. There are color:#000002">some areas Verdana;color:#000002"> where I need more information and I will appreciate if you can contribute. We color:#000002">should remember that A L Bas Verdana;color:#000002">ham wa color:#000002">s not anti-Hindu and that view color:#000002">s are taken s Verdana;color:#000002">eriou color:#000002">sly. So, a s Verdana;color:#000002">y color:#000002">stematic decons Verdana;color:#000002">truction i color:#000002">s a mus Verdana;color:#000002">t. A Verdana;color:#000002;font-weight:bold"> L Ba Verdana;color:#000002;font-weight:bold">s Verdana;color:#000002;font-weight:bold">ham' Verdana;color:#000002;font-weight:bold">s Verdana;color:#000002;font-weight:bold"> argument # 1: Verdana;color:#000002"> Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">The homily given by Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">Kri Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">s Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">hna Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic"> to Arjuna take Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">s Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic"> place right when the battle wa Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">s Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic"> about to commence and when the 2 armie font-style:italic">s color:#000002;font-style:italic"> were arrayed. A Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">s Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">s Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">uming each ver Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">s Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">e took 12 Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">s Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">econd Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">s Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic"> to deliver and that Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">Kri Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">s Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">hna Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic"> Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">s Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">poke non- Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">s Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">top, it Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">s Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">hould have taken atleast Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic"> 2 hour Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">s Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic"> for the Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">s Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">ermon. This not including the lengthy theophany in chapter 11. Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic"> So, one can conclude that the entire Gita wa font-style:italic">s color:#000002;font-style:italic">n't Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">s Verdana;color:#000002;font-style:italic">poken on the battlefield. My rebuttal: During Kuruk 10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:#000002">s 10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:#000002">hetra Verdana;color:#000002"> war, there wa Verdana;color:#000002">s color:#000002"> a dis Verdana;color:#000002">tinct code of ethic Verdana;color:#000002">s color:#000002"> to be followed. The war didn't commence unle Verdana;color:#000002">s Verdana;color:#000002">s color:#000002"> the commander color:#000002">s of the 2 armies Verdana;color:#000002"> blew their conch Verdana;color:#000002">s color:#000002">hells Verdana;color:#000002">. On day 1, Pandava 10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:#000002">s Verdana;color:#000002"> were lead by Dri 10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:#000002">s 10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:#000002">tadyumna Verdana;color:#000002"> and the Kaurava 10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:#000002">s Verdana;color:#000002"> by Dronacarya. If I recall correctly, even though Dronacarya had blown the conch, Dri 10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:#000002">s 10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:#000002">tadyumna Verdana;color:#000002"> had not, a color:#000002">s he awaited the nod from Yudhi 10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:#000002">s 10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:#000002">tra color:#000002">. So, even if the di color:#000002">scour Verdana;color:#000002">s color:#000002">e had taken longer, the armie Verdana;color:#000002">s color:#000002"> would s Verdana;color:#000002">till have waited. Verdana;color:#000002">We can color:#000002">see this Verdana;color:#000002"> code being followed in 2 more place Verdana;color:#000002">s color:#000002"> in Kuruk 10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:#000002">s 10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:#000002">hetra Verdana;color:#000002"> war. Fir color:#000002">st, when Kri Verdana;color:#000002">s color:#000002">hna blocks Verdana;color:#000002"> the color:#000002">sun with His Verdana;color:#000002"> wheel, the armie Verdana;color:#000002">s color:#000002"> s Verdana;color:#000002">topped fighting. Likewi Verdana;color:#000002">s color:#000002">e, when Karna wa Verdana;color:#000002">s color:#000002"> injured and color:#000002">struggled to get his Verdana;color:#000002"> chariot out of the mud, Verdana;color:#000002">Kri color:#000002">shna Verdana;color:#000002"> cea color:#000002">sed firing. So, it is Verdana;color:#000002"> no wonder that the 2 armie Verdana;color:#000002">s color:#000002"> waited until color:#000002">Kris Verdana;color:#000002">hna color:#000002"> finis Verdana;color:#000002">hed addre color:#000002">s color:#000002">sing Arjuna. Verdana;color:#000002">Plea color:#000002">se correct if I have made factual error color:#000002">s. I am quoting the incidence color:#000002">s out of memory. font-family:Arial"> font-family:Arial"> 12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US;mso-no-proof:yes"> 10.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US;mso-no-proof:yes"> color:red;mso-fareast-language:EN-US;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic; mso-no-proof:yes">Prite EN-US;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic;mso-no-proof:yes">s EN-US;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic;mso-no-proof:yes">h Vya EN-US;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic;mso-no-proof:yes">s EN-US;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic;mso-no-proof:yes"> font-family:"Monotype Corsiva";mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;color:blue; mso-fareast-language:EN-US;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic;mso-no-proof: yes">29 Bond Street mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;color:blue;mso-fareast-language:EN-US;font-weight: bold;font-style:italic;mso-no-proof:yes"> font-family:"Monotype Corsiva";mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;color:blue; mso-fareast-language:EN-US;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic;mso-no-proof: yes">Stratford mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;color:blue;mso-fareast-language:EN-US;font-weight: bold;font-style:italic;mso-no-proof:yes"> font-family:"Monotype Corsiva";mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;color:blue; mso-fareast-language:EN-US;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic;mso-no-proof: yes">London mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;color:blue;mso-fareast-language:EN-US;font-weight: bold;font-style:italic;mso-no-proof:yes"> font-family:"Monotype Corsiva";mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;color:blue; mso-fareast-language:EN-US;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic;mso-no-proof: yes">E15 1LT. font-family:"Monotype Corsiva";mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;color:blue; mso-fareast-language:EN-US;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic;mso-no-proof: yes">Tel: 0208-257-0183 font-family:"Monotype Corsiva";mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;color:blue; mso-fareast-language:EN-US;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic;mso-no-proof: yes">Mob: 07939-905-837 font-family:"Monotype Corsiva";mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;color:blue; mso-fareast-language:EN-US;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic;mso-no-proof: yes">Email: Prite mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;color:blue;mso-fareast-language:EN-US;font-weight: bold;font-style:italic;mso-no-proof:yes">s mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;color:blue;mso-fareast-language:EN-US;font-weight: bold;font-style:italic;mso-no-proof:yes">h01 font-family:"Monotype Corsiva";mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;color:blue; mso-fareast-language:EN-US;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic;mso-no-proof: yes">Web: http://www.geocitie mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;color:blue;mso-fareast-language:EN-US;font-weight: bold;font-style:italic;mso-no-proof:yes">s mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;color:blue;mso-fareast-language:EN-US;font-weight: bold;font-style:italic;mso-no-proof:yes">.com/prite mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;color:blue;mso-fareast-language:EN-US;font-weight: bold;font-style:italic;mso-no-proof:yes">s mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;color:blue;mso-fareast-language:EN-US;font-weight: bold;font-style:italic;mso-no-proof:yes">h01 EN-US;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic;mso-no-proof:yes"> 10.0pt;mso-no-proof:yes">CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE: This e-mail and any attachment to it, contains privileged and confidential Information intended only for the use of the individual (s) or entity named on the e-mail. 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Guest guest Posted May 14, 2002 Report Share Posted May 14, 2002 achintya, "Pritesh Vyas" <pritesh01> wrote: > I don't agree with A L Basham and I have refutals for every point he > puts forth. There are some areas where I need more information and I > will appreciate if you can contribute. We should remember that A L > Basham was not anti-Hindu and that views are taken seriously. So, a > systematic deconstruction is a must. It is always a good idea to take objections seriously, regardless of their source, and proceed to attack the objection rather than the person. It is not proper Vaishnava etiquette to attack the character of an opponent, even if it is obvious that his character is not up to par with Vaishnava standards. Besides which, I'm sure that if we look into our own hearts, our own character will also fail to pass the standards set forth by Srila Prabhupada. But above and beyond this, it is simply a fact that doubts cannot be resolved in the minds of neutral third parties if we fail to address the objections themselves. Attacking a person simply generates sympathy for that person in the minds of neutral parties. Therefore, refrain from character assasinations and attack the arguments only. It has just come to my attention that this posting is not the original writing of the person who posted it here to Achintya. Pritesh, please review Achintya rules of posting, which state: "6) All messages posted on the achintya list are the property of their authors. Unauthorized reposting of such messages outside of achintya, whether in whole or in part, is grounds for dismissal from the list. Please also respect the rules of other mailing lists in this regard, and refrain from unauthorized cross-posting of messages from other forums into Achintya." You will need to get karthik_v's permission to cross post these kinds of messages to Achintya, as I assume that he is the person who originally wrote this message on India Divine. I'm sure it won't be a problem, but we must respect other forums and refrain from cross- posting messages without their authors' permission. Please therefore get the permission of other authors before cross posting into Achintya. This goes for all list members as well. In the meantime, what is done is done. I invite devotees and list members to respond to the Basham arguments with one-pointed attention to guru, saadhu, shaastra. Hopefully, the author of these rebuttals of Basham's writing will see fit to allow them to be posted here, generating further discussion. Thanks, Krishna Susarla Moderator, Achintya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2002 Report Share Posted May 16, 2002 I'm surprised that no one has responded to this yet, and so I will offer my two cents: achintya, "Pritesh Vyas" <pritesh01> wrote: > A L Basham's argument # 1: > The homily given by Krishna to Arjuna takes place right when the battle > was about to commence and when the 2 armies were arrayed. Assuming each > verse took 12 seconds to deliver and that Krishna spoke non-stop, it > should have taken atleast 2 hours for the sermon. This not including the > lengthy theophany in chapter 11. So, one can conclude that the entire > Gita wasn't spoken on the battlefield. This is a very poor argument to conclude what he is concluding. In modern warfare, two armies would not be deployed on the battlefield in plain sight of each other and do nothing for two hours. But this was Vedic warfare, in which, as you pointed out, there are codes of kshatriya ethics which are to be followed. These include such things as: no fighting after sunset, no hitting below the waistline, not engaging an opponent who is clearly inferior, etc. Another aspect of the warrior code (as well as Vedic etiquette in general), is to stand and show respect when a respect personality is speaking. Lord Krishna was already well known as the King of Dwaaraka and thus a respectable person by any standards, what to speak of the fact that He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But even accepting that most kings did not know His true identity, they did know that He was a respectable King. When such a person speaks on the battlefield, it is reasonable to assume that the kshatriyas would stand at attention, rather than fighting like low-class mercenaries. Even more interesting must have been the fact that Krishna, though a King, was serving as Arjuna's charioteer. What kshatriya, even one inimical to Krishna, would not find this interesting enough to stop and watch? Srila Prabhupada writes in his Gita purports that although Krishna was speaking to Arjuna, nevertheless the conversation was heard by both armies. No kshatriya would simply start warfare when a respectable personality was speaking on the nature of duty, dharma, and transcendental life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2002 Report Share Posted May 16, 2002 On Thu, 16 May 2002, krishnasusarla wrote: > But this was Vedic warfare, in which, as you pointed out, there are > codes of kshatriya ethics which are to be followed. These include > such things as: no fighting after sunset, no hitting below the > waistline, not engaging an opponent who is clearly inferior, etc. This is especially appreciable in a day and age when armies seem increasingly less capable of controlling themselves even enough to not kill innocent civilians. MDd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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