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Dear devotees,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

Lord Siva is known as an exalted Vaisnava. So we can worship Him as a

Vasinava, asking for His mercy. However none of our acaryas did that.

Why?

 

--

Your servant,

Dennis. dennis_s

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achintya, "Dennis A. Sushchenko" <dennis_s@m...> wrote:

 

> Lord Siva is known as an exalted Vaisnava. So we can worship Him as

a

> Vasinava, asking for His mercy. However none of our acaryas did

that.

> Why?

 

 

Dear Dennis prabhu,

 

I think the issue may indeed be a sectarian concern since worship of

Lord Siva may create confusion in the minds of the people, in regards

to our status as Vaishnavas so why do we worship Lord Shiva, a

demigod and thus exhibit Saivite tendencies.

 

Even though Lord Siva is an exalted Vaishnava (indeed the greatest,

vaisnavanam yatha sambhuh) and we can pray to him for his mercy in

trying to attain Krishna-bhakti, this may still be cause for some

concern.

 

However, this is what I could find what His Divine Grace Srila

Prabhupada says in his Krsna book:

 

"Once upon a time, the cowherd men of Vrndavana, headed by Nanda

Maharaja, desired to go to Ambikavana to perform the Sivaratri

performance. The rasa-lila was performed during the autumn, and after

that the next big ceremony is Holi or the Dolayatra ceremony. Between

the Dolayatra ceremony and the rasa-lila ceremony there is one

important ceremony which is called Sivaratri, which is especially

observed by the Saivites, or devotees of Lord Siva. But sometimes the

Vaisnavas also observe this ceremony because they accept Lord Siva as

the foremost Vaisnava. But the function of Sivaratri is not observed

very regularly by the bhaktas, or devotees of Krsna.

"Under the circumstances, it is stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam that the

cowherd men headed by Nanda Maharaja 'once upon a time desired.' That

means that they were not regularly observing the Sivaratri function

but that once upon a time they wanted to go to Ambikavana out of

curiosity." - Krsna book, Chapter 34.

 

Also, I believe that there is a verse in SB Canto 1 Book 1 about how

the devotee prefers to worship the all-good forms of the Supreme

Personality of Godhead, rather than the "terrible and ghastly" forms

of the demigods:

 

SB 1.2.26

 

mumuksavo ghora-rupan

hitva bhuta-patin atha

narayana-kalah santa

bhajanti hy anasuyavah

 

mumuksavah--persons desiring liberation; ghora--horrible, ghastly;

rupan--forms like that; hitva--rejecting; bhuta-patin--demigods; atha-

-for this reason; narayana--the Personality of Godhead; kalah--

plenary portions; santah--all-blissful; bhajanti--do worship; hi--

certainly; anasuyavah--nonenvious.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Those who are serious about liberation are certainly nonenvious, and

they respect all. Yet they reject the horrible and ghastly forms of

the demigods and worship only the all-blissful forms of Lord Visnu

and His plenary portions.

 

PURPORT

 

The Supreme Personality of Godhead Sri Krsna, who is the original

person of the Visnu categories, expands Himself in two different

categories, namely integrated plenary portions and separated parts

and parcels. The separated parts and parcels are the servitors, and

the integrated plenary portions of visnu-tattvas are the worshipful

objects of service.

All demigods who are empowered by the Supreme Lord are also separated

parts and parcels. They do not belong to the categories of visnu-

tattva. The visnu-tattvas are living beings equally as powerful as

the original form of the Personality of Godhead, and They display

different categories of power in consideration of different times and

circumstances. The separated parts and parcels are powerful by

limitation. They do not have unlimited power like the visnu-tattvas.

Therefore, one should never classify the visnu-tattvas, or the

plenary portions of Narayana, the Personality of Godhead, in the same

categories with the parts and parcels. If anyone does so he becomes

at once an offender by the name pasandi. In the age of Kali many

foolish persons commit such unlawful offenses and equalize the two

categories.

The separated parts and parcels have different positions in the

estimation of material powers, and some of them are like Kala-

bhairava, Smasana-bhairava, Sani, Mahakali and Candika. These

demigods are worshiped mostly by those who are in the lowest

categories of the mode of darkness or ignorance. Other demigods, like

Brahma, Siva, Surya, Ganesa and many similar deities, are worshiped

by men in the mode of passion, urged on by the desire for material

enjoyment. But those who are actually situated in the mode of

goodness (sattva-guna) of material nature worship only visnu-tattvas.

Visnu-tattvas are represented by various names and forms, such as

Narayana, Damodara, Vamana, Govinda and Adhoksaja.

The qualified brahmanas worship the visnu-tattvas represented by the

salagrama-sila, and some of the higher castes like the ksatriyas and

vaisyas also generally worship the visnu-tattvas.

Highly qualified brahmanas situated in the mode of goodness have no

grudges against the mode of worship of others. They have all respect

for other demigods, even though they may look ghastly, like Kala-

bhairava or Mahakali.

They know very well that those horrible features of the Supreme Lord

are all different servitors of the Lord under different conditions,

yet they reject the worship of both horrible and attractive features

of the demigods, and they concentrate only on the forms of Visnu

because they are serious about liberation from the material

conditions. The demigods, even to the stage of Brahma, the supreme of

all the demigods, cannot offer liberation to anyone.

Hiranyakasipu underwent a severe type of penance to become eternal in

life, but his worshipful deity, Brahma, could not satisfy him with

such blessings. Therefore Visnu, and none else, is called mukti-pada,

or the Personality of Godhead who can bestow upon us mukti,

liberation. The demigods, being like other living entities in the

material world, are all liquidated at the time of the annihilation of

the material structure. They are themselves unable to get liberation,

and what to speak of giving liberation to their devotees. The

demigods can award the worshipers some temporary benefit only, and

not the ultimate one.

It is for this reason only that candidates for liberation deliberately

reject the worship of the demigods, although they have no disrespect

for any one of them.

 

 

 

It should be noted that "Kala-bhairava" and "Smasana-bhairava" are

two of the more "ghastly" forms of Shiva.

 

I hope this has helped you in answering your question.

 

In service of Gaura-Nitai,

 

Sanjay

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Hare Krsna, Sanjay Prabhu.

 

Thank you for reply.

 

<...>

d> However, this is what I could find what His Divine Grace Srila

d> Prabhupada says in his Krsna book:

 

d> "Once upon a time, the cowherd men of Vrndavana, headed by Nanda

d> Maharaja, desired to go to Ambikavana to perform the Sivaratri

d> performance. The rasa-lila was performed during the autumn, and after

d> that the next big ceremony is Holi or the Dolayatra ceremony. Between

d> the Dolayatra ceremony and the rasa-lila ceremony there is one

d> important ceremony which is called Sivaratri, which is especially

d> observed by the Saivites, or devotees of Lord Siva. But sometimes the

d> Vaisnavas also observe this ceremony because they accept Lord Siva as

d> the foremost Vaisnava. But the function of Sivaratri is not observed

d> very regularly by the bhaktas, or devotees of Krsna.

d> "Under the circumstances, it is stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam that the

d> cowherd men headed by Nanda Maharaja 'once upon a time desired.' That

d> means that they were not regularly observing the Sivaratri function

d> but that once upon a time they wanted to go to Ambikavana out of

d> curiosity." - Krsna book, Chapter 34.

Did cowherd men want to achieve Krsna-bhakti? They observed Sivaratri

just out of curiosity, but when one's striving for bhakti there's no

place for curiosity. Bhakta must do his best to achieve bhakti --

isn't it?

 

d> Also, I believe that there is a verse in SB Canto 1 Book 1 about how

d> the devotee prefers to worship the all-good forms of the Supreme

d> Personality of Godhead, rather than the "terrible and ghastly" forms

d> of the demigods:

Here Srila Prabhupada makes a point about materialistic people in tama

and rajo guna. They worship demigods because of desire of sense

gratification. A Vaisnava, however, wants bhakti -- it's something

completely different. I believe Srila Prabhupada says in his Gita

commentary that one can worship demigods as Vaisnavas. But I don't

remember the verse...

 

<...>

d> I hope this has helped you in answering your question.

Well, I still don't understand the point. :-) Of course, that.. er...

sectarian approach is the answer -- we're trying to become devotees of

Lord Krsna, not Siva. So we worship great devotees of our sampradaya;

we pray to them. But if it's so, then we should worship Lord Siva

also.

 

I also wanted to say in adition: as far as I know Srila BR Sridhara

Maharaj wrote many bhajans, glorifying our Acaryas; offerings to Srila

Gour Kisor Das Babaji, Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur... Those are bhajans

glorifying great Vaisnavas. So logicaly bhaktas also can sing bhajans

glorifying Lord Siva...

 

Demigod He or not, He's a Vasinava first of all -- isn't it?

 

--

Your servant,

Dennis dennis_s

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achintya, "Dennis A. Sushchenko" <dennis_s@m...> wrote:

> Dear devotees,

> Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

>

> Lord Siva is known as an exalted Vaisnava. So we can worship Him as

a

> Vasinava, asking for His mercy. However none of our acaryas did

that.

> Why?

 

In "Sri Vraja-dhama-mahimamrta" by Srila Krishna Das Kaviraj Goswami,

he writes, "jaya jaya gopiswara vrndavana-majh"

" All glories, all glories to Gopisvara Siva, who resides in

Vrndavana in order to protect the holy dhama." Few other bhajan's

written by our acharya's glorify Lord Shiva in similar mood.

 

Although Vaishnava regard Shiva as among most exalted vaishnavas,

Gaudiya Vaishanava specifically worship Lord Shiva as Gopisvara

Mahadev or Kshetrapal Shiva (The protector of Dham). In Vrindavan,

Lord Shiva is worshiped as Gopisvara Shiva, and in Navadvip as

Kshetrapal Shiva. Param Pujya Srila Bhakti Sidhdhanta Saraswati

Thakur installed the deities of Shiva as Ksetrapal Shiv or Gopiswar

Mahadev in some of the Gaudiya Maths.

 

Lord Shiva protects the dham. In order to enter into the dham in

proper mood one needs the mercy of Lord Shiva. Lord Shiva represents

complete detachments from sense objects. We are to interact with

sense objects in such away as to not be implicated, than only we

will be able to enter into the dham in proper mood.

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> Message: 1

> Mon, 9 Sep 2002 18:52:57 +0400

> "Dennis A. Sushchenko"

> <dennis_s

> Re: Re: Lord Siva

 

> Did cowherd men want to achieve Krsna-bhakti? They

> observed Sivaratri

> just out of curiosity, but when one's striving for

> bhakti there's no

> place for curiosity. Bhakta must do his best to

> achieve bhakti --

> isn't it?

 

Haribol Dennis,

 

Regarding the question of the cowherd men's aspiration

to achieve Krsna-bhakti, I am not sure about this

standpoint because I tend to take the view that the

cowherd men and other inhabitants of Vrndavana were

demigods who had incarnated along with Lord Krsna for

the purpose of assisting in His pastimes. Srila

Prabhupada very often said that the bhakti of the

inhabitants of Vrndavana (and especially that of the

gopis) was unexcelled, so I would say that they had

already achieved Krsna-bhakti and were on the

liberated platform, but were still attracted to His

pastimes.

 

About curiosity, I would say that this is were

environmental characteristics take effect. Obviously a

grand Sivarathri festival was planned somewhere and

the inhabitants of Vrndavana wanted to attend the

celebrations. Even today in India and especially in

the villages, such festivals are an occasion for grand

celebrations, is it not? And today these festivals

seem to have transformed into something like funfairs.

So it may be that the inhabitants just wanted to

attend a festival and enjoy the celebrations, and in

this way glorify Lord Shiva too, but that such events

and festivals were not a regular affair as Srila

Prabhupada states.

 

> Here Srila Prabhupada makes a point about

> materialistic people in tama

> and rajo guna. They worship demigods because of

> desire of sense

> gratification. A Vaisnava, however, wants bhakti --

> it's something

> completely different. I believe Srila Prabhupada

> says in his Gita

> commentary that one can worship demigods as

> Vaisnavas. But I don't

> remember the verse...

 

I suppose that is true, because later in the same

chapter of Krsna book, Srila Prabhupada writes:

 

"The cowherd men who had come to execute the

ritualistic function of worshiping Lord Siva and

Ambika finished their business and prepared to return

to Vrndavana. While returning, they recalled the

wonderful activities of Krsna. By relating the

incident of Vidyadhara's deliverance, they became more

attached to Krsna. They had come to worship Lord Siva

and Ambika, but they became more and more attached to

Krsna. Similarly, the gopis also worshiped goddess

Katyayani to become more and more attached to Krsna.

It is stated in the Bhagavad-gita that persons who are

attached to worshiping demigods like Lord Brahma,

Siva, Indra and Candra, for some personal benefit, are

less intelligent and have forgotten the real purpose

of life. But the cowherd men, inhabitants of

Vrndavana, were no ordinary men. Whatever they did,

they did for Krsna. If one worships demigods like Lord

Siva and Lord Brahma to become more attached to Krsna,

that is approved. But if one goes to the demigods for

some personal benefit, that is condemned."

 

So it is obvious that the trip to Ambikavana had one

chief result: their bhakti for Krsna became more

intensified. And this is a practical example of the

result that can be gained by worshipping demigods for

advancement in Krsna consciousness.

 

In this regard, I have to relate a personal experience

of mine. Before I came to ISKCON, I was more inclined

to Saivite philosophy because Shiva is my family

deity. I really did not have clear spiritual ideas but

I was inclined to Shiva. So when I came into ISKCON

and became affected through Srila Prabhupada's books,

I strove to rationalise how this had happened. How did

I come from Shiva (Saivism) to Krishna (Vaishnavism)

when the two seem to be poles apart? The conclusion

that I reached was that I must have tried my best to

please Lord Shiva without gain, and being the

magnanimous Vaishnava that Lord Shiva really is, he

might have shown me the path to Krishna. I fully

believe that Lord Shiva showed me the path to Krishna

and as such I offer my eternal obeisances to him.

 

I was also please to know that Lord Shiva himself was

a great Vaishnava and constantly meditates on

Sankarsana in Illavrta-varsa.

 

Of course, there are verse in BG and other books where

Srila Prabhupada seems to hold no objection to

demigod-worship providing that the request is to

advance in Krsna Consciousness. But then I suppose

that we have to use the same rationalisation that we

use for other demigods: If the demigods have to ask

permission from Krishna to bestow bendictions, then

why not ask Krishna Himself?

 

> we're trying to

> become devotees of

> Lord Krsna, not Siva. So we worship great devotees

> of our sampradaya;

> we pray to them. But if it's so, then we should

> worship Lord Siva

> also.

 

I was thinking about that point just today. Not only

is Shiva a great Vaishnava, but he is also the head of

his own sampradaya too! But then again the same

rationalisation is adapted: If we do not excessively

glorify Ramanuja, Visnu Svami or Nimbarka, or even

Lakshmi and the Four Kumaras, then is it right to

excessively glorify Shiva?

 

> Srila BR Sridhara

> Maharaj wrote many bhajans, glorifying our Acaryas;

> offerings to Srila

> Gour Kisor Das Babaji, Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur...

> Those are bhajans

> glorifying great Vaisnavas. So logicaly bhaktas also

> can sing bhajans

> glorifying Lord Siva...

>

> Demigod He or not, He's a Vasinava first of all --

> isn't it?

 

That is a good point. Please forgive me if I do not

seem to speak concisely because you have brought up

some good points that are hard to answer.

 

As I have stated, Srila Prabhupada was not against the

practice of demigod-worship per se unless it was for

material benedictions that are against Krsna

Consciousness. So I suppose that there is no serious

objection the glorification of Shiva considering his

status as a Vaishnava, only that this practice is not

indulged in so much and that the devotees prefer to

worship the satvic form of Lord Krsna and His all-good

expansions.

 

This discussion regarding an example in Krsna-lila

reminded me of a another incident regarding the fight

with Banasura, who had received benedictions from

Shiva. If you kindly turn to Chapter 62:

 

"Actually, there are two classes of men--one is Krsna

conscious, the other is non-Krsna conscious. The

non-Krsna conscious men are generally devoted to the

demigods, whereas the Krsna conscious men are devoted

to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Krsna conscious

persons utilize everything for the service of the

Lord. The non-Krsna conscious persons utilize

everything for sense gratification, and Banasura is a

perfect example of such a person. He was very anxious

to utilize for his own satisfaction his extraordinary

power to fight. Not finding any combatant, he struck

his powerful hands against the mountains, breaking

them into pieces. In contrast to this, Arjuna also

possessed extraordinary powers for fighting, but he

utilized them only for Krsna."

 

This example shows that Banasura had materialistically

worshipped Shiva for the prowess to fight, and then

Srila Prabhupada contrasts this with Arjuna who was

also a great fighter but who served Krsna's purpose

with his skills. It seems to be an interesting

dichotomy how Banasura got his powers from Shiva, but

Arjuna had got his powers from Krsna and USED them for

Krsna. So doesn't this mean that we should worship

Krsna anyway since all abilities and skills come from

Him anyway, regardless of demigod intercession?

 

There is more at the end of Chapter 63:

 

"This episode of Banasura's fighting with Krsna and

later on being saved by the grace of Lord Siva is

confirmation of the statement in the Bhagavad-gita

that the worshipers of demigods cannot achieve any

benediction without its being sanctioned by the

Supreme Lord, Krsna. Here, in this narration, we find

that although Banasura was a great devotee of Lord

Siva, when he faced death by Krsna, Lord Siva was not

able to save him. But Lord Siva appealed to Krsna to

save his devotee, and this was sanctioned by the Lord.

This is the position of Lord Krsna. The exact words

used in this connection in the Bhagavad-gita are

mayaiva vihitan hi tan. This means that without the

sanction of the Supreme Lord, no demigod can award any

benediction to the worshiper."

 

I see that you have interestingly used the example of

Srila BR Sridhara Maharaja's composition of bhajanas

that glorify the previous Acharyas. Singing these

songs can also be seen to glorify Sridhara Maharaja.

Similarly, Srila Narottama das Thakura Mahasaya was a

great compositionist and he is also simultaneously

glorified whenever his bhajans are sung.

 

>From this example, I will expect that to glorify Lord

Shiva properly in a way that is ALSO pleasing to Lord

Krishna, one may sing/recite the prayers by Lord Shiva

that he gave to the Pracetas,

http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/canto4/chapter24.html

..

 

In service of Gaura-Nitai,

 

Sanjay

 

 

- We Remember

9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost

http://dir.remember./tribute

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