Guest guest Posted September 8, 2002 Report Share Posted September 8, 2002 Dear devotees, Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Lord Siva is known as an exalted Vaisnava. So we can worship Him as a Vasinava, asking for His mercy. However none of our acaryas did that. Why? -- Your servant, Dennis. dennis_s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 2002 Report Share Posted September 8, 2002 achintya, "Dennis A. Sushchenko" <dennis_s@m...> wrote: > Lord Siva is known as an exalted Vaisnava. So we can worship Him as a > Vasinava, asking for His mercy. However none of our acaryas did that. > Why? Dear Dennis prabhu, I think the issue may indeed be a sectarian concern since worship of Lord Siva may create confusion in the minds of the people, in regards to our status as Vaishnavas so why do we worship Lord Shiva, a demigod and thus exhibit Saivite tendencies. Even though Lord Siva is an exalted Vaishnava (indeed the greatest, vaisnavanam yatha sambhuh) and we can pray to him for his mercy in trying to attain Krishna-bhakti, this may still be cause for some concern. However, this is what I could find what His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada says in his Krsna book: "Once upon a time, the cowherd men of Vrndavana, headed by Nanda Maharaja, desired to go to Ambikavana to perform the Sivaratri performance. The rasa-lila was performed during the autumn, and after that the next big ceremony is Holi or the Dolayatra ceremony. Between the Dolayatra ceremony and the rasa-lila ceremony there is one important ceremony which is called Sivaratri, which is especially observed by the Saivites, or devotees of Lord Siva. But sometimes the Vaisnavas also observe this ceremony because they accept Lord Siva as the foremost Vaisnava. But the function of Sivaratri is not observed very regularly by the bhaktas, or devotees of Krsna. "Under the circumstances, it is stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam that the cowherd men headed by Nanda Maharaja 'once upon a time desired.' That means that they were not regularly observing the Sivaratri function but that once upon a time they wanted to go to Ambikavana out of curiosity." - Krsna book, Chapter 34. Also, I believe that there is a verse in SB Canto 1 Book 1 about how the devotee prefers to worship the all-good forms of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, rather than the "terrible and ghastly" forms of the demigods: SB 1.2.26 mumuksavo ghora-rupan hitva bhuta-patin atha narayana-kalah santa bhajanti hy anasuyavah mumuksavah--persons desiring liberation; ghora--horrible, ghastly; rupan--forms like that; hitva--rejecting; bhuta-patin--demigods; atha- -for this reason; narayana--the Personality of Godhead; kalah-- plenary portions; santah--all-blissful; bhajanti--do worship; hi-- certainly; anasuyavah--nonenvious. TRANSLATION Those who are serious about liberation are certainly nonenvious, and they respect all. Yet they reject the horrible and ghastly forms of the demigods and worship only the all-blissful forms of Lord Visnu and His plenary portions. PURPORT The Supreme Personality of Godhead Sri Krsna, who is the original person of the Visnu categories, expands Himself in two different categories, namely integrated plenary portions and separated parts and parcels. The separated parts and parcels are the servitors, and the integrated plenary portions of visnu-tattvas are the worshipful objects of service. All demigods who are empowered by the Supreme Lord are also separated parts and parcels. They do not belong to the categories of visnu- tattva. The visnu-tattvas are living beings equally as powerful as the original form of the Personality of Godhead, and They display different categories of power in consideration of different times and circumstances. The separated parts and parcels are powerful by limitation. They do not have unlimited power like the visnu-tattvas. Therefore, one should never classify the visnu-tattvas, or the plenary portions of Narayana, the Personality of Godhead, in the same categories with the parts and parcels. If anyone does so he becomes at once an offender by the name pasandi. In the age of Kali many foolish persons commit such unlawful offenses and equalize the two categories. The separated parts and parcels have different positions in the estimation of material powers, and some of them are like Kala- bhairava, Smasana-bhairava, Sani, Mahakali and Candika. These demigods are worshiped mostly by those who are in the lowest categories of the mode of darkness or ignorance. Other demigods, like Brahma, Siva, Surya, Ganesa and many similar deities, are worshiped by men in the mode of passion, urged on by the desire for material enjoyment. But those who are actually situated in the mode of goodness (sattva-guna) of material nature worship only visnu-tattvas. Visnu-tattvas are represented by various names and forms, such as Narayana, Damodara, Vamana, Govinda and Adhoksaja. The qualified brahmanas worship the visnu-tattvas represented by the salagrama-sila, and some of the higher castes like the ksatriyas and vaisyas also generally worship the visnu-tattvas. Highly qualified brahmanas situated in the mode of goodness have no grudges against the mode of worship of others. They have all respect for other demigods, even though they may look ghastly, like Kala- bhairava or Mahakali. They know very well that those horrible features of the Supreme Lord are all different servitors of the Lord under different conditions, yet they reject the worship of both horrible and attractive features of the demigods, and they concentrate only on the forms of Visnu because they are serious about liberation from the material conditions. The demigods, even to the stage of Brahma, the supreme of all the demigods, cannot offer liberation to anyone. Hiranyakasipu underwent a severe type of penance to become eternal in life, but his worshipful deity, Brahma, could not satisfy him with such blessings. Therefore Visnu, and none else, is called mukti-pada, or the Personality of Godhead who can bestow upon us mukti, liberation. The demigods, being like other living entities in the material world, are all liquidated at the time of the annihilation of the material structure. They are themselves unable to get liberation, and what to speak of giving liberation to their devotees. The demigods can award the worshipers some temporary benefit only, and not the ultimate one. It is for this reason only that candidates for liberation deliberately reject the worship of the demigods, although they have no disrespect for any one of them. It should be noted that "Kala-bhairava" and "Smasana-bhairava" are two of the more "ghastly" forms of Shiva. I hope this has helped you in answering your question. In service of Gaura-Nitai, Sanjay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 2002 Report Share Posted September 9, 2002 Hare Krsna, Sanjay Prabhu. Thank you for reply. <...> d> However, this is what I could find what His Divine Grace Srila d> Prabhupada says in his Krsna book: d> "Once upon a time, the cowherd men of Vrndavana, headed by Nanda d> Maharaja, desired to go to Ambikavana to perform the Sivaratri d> performance. The rasa-lila was performed during the autumn, and after d> that the next big ceremony is Holi or the Dolayatra ceremony. Between d> the Dolayatra ceremony and the rasa-lila ceremony there is one d> important ceremony which is called Sivaratri, which is especially d> observed by the Saivites, or devotees of Lord Siva. But sometimes the d> Vaisnavas also observe this ceremony because they accept Lord Siva as d> the foremost Vaisnava. But the function of Sivaratri is not observed d> very regularly by the bhaktas, or devotees of Krsna. d> "Under the circumstances, it is stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam that the d> cowherd men headed by Nanda Maharaja 'once upon a time desired.' That d> means that they were not regularly observing the Sivaratri function d> but that once upon a time they wanted to go to Ambikavana out of d> curiosity." - Krsna book, Chapter 34. Did cowherd men want to achieve Krsna-bhakti? They observed Sivaratri just out of curiosity, but when one's striving for bhakti there's no place for curiosity. Bhakta must do his best to achieve bhakti -- isn't it? d> Also, I believe that there is a verse in SB Canto 1 Book 1 about how d> the devotee prefers to worship the all-good forms of the Supreme d> Personality of Godhead, rather than the "terrible and ghastly" forms d> of the demigods: Here Srila Prabhupada makes a point about materialistic people in tama and rajo guna. They worship demigods because of desire of sense gratification. A Vaisnava, however, wants bhakti -- it's something completely different. I believe Srila Prabhupada says in his Gita commentary that one can worship demigods as Vaisnavas. But I don't remember the verse... <...> d> I hope this has helped you in answering your question. Well, I still don't understand the point. :-) Of course, that.. er... sectarian approach is the answer -- we're trying to become devotees of Lord Krsna, not Siva. So we worship great devotees of our sampradaya; we pray to them. But if it's so, then we should worship Lord Siva also. I also wanted to say in adition: as far as I know Srila BR Sridhara Maharaj wrote many bhajans, glorifying our Acaryas; offerings to Srila Gour Kisor Das Babaji, Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur... Those are bhajans glorifying great Vaisnavas. So logicaly bhaktas also can sing bhajans glorifying Lord Siva... Demigod He or not, He's a Vasinava first of all -- isn't it? -- Your servant, Dennis dennis_s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2002 Report Share Posted September 10, 2002 achintya, "Dennis A. Sushchenko" <dennis_s@m...> wrote: > Dear devotees, > Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. > > Lord Siva is known as an exalted Vaisnava. So we can worship Him as a > Vasinava, asking for His mercy. However none of our acaryas did that. > Why? In "Sri Vraja-dhama-mahimamrta" by Srila Krishna Das Kaviraj Goswami, he writes, "jaya jaya gopiswara vrndavana-majh" " All glories, all glories to Gopisvara Siva, who resides in Vrndavana in order to protect the holy dhama." Few other bhajan's written by our acharya's glorify Lord Shiva in similar mood. Although Vaishnava regard Shiva as among most exalted vaishnavas, Gaudiya Vaishanava specifically worship Lord Shiva as Gopisvara Mahadev or Kshetrapal Shiva (The protector of Dham). In Vrindavan, Lord Shiva is worshiped as Gopisvara Shiva, and in Navadvip as Kshetrapal Shiva. Param Pujya Srila Bhakti Sidhdhanta Saraswati Thakur installed the deities of Shiva as Ksetrapal Shiv or Gopiswar Mahadev in some of the Gaudiya Maths. Lord Shiva protects the dham. In order to enter into the dham in proper mood one needs the mercy of Lord Shiva. Lord Shiva represents complete detachments from sense objects. We are to interact with sense objects in such away as to not be implicated, than only we will be able to enter into the dham in proper mood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2002 Report Share Posted September 10, 2002 > Message: 1 > Mon, 9 Sep 2002 18:52:57 +0400 > "Dennis A. Sushchenko" > <dennis_s > Re: Re: Lord Siva > Did cowherd men want to achieve Krsna-bhakti? They > observed Sivaratri > just out of curiosity, but when one's striving for > bhakti there's no > place for curiosity. Bhakta must do his best to > achieve bhakti -- > isn't it? Haribol Dennis, Regarding the question of the cowherd men's aspiration to achieve Krsna-bhakti, I am not sure about this standpoint because I tend to take the view that the cowherd men and other inhabitants of Vrndavana were demigods who had incarnated along with Lord Krsna for the purpose of assisting in His pastimes. Srila Prabhupada very often said that the bhakti of the inhabitants of Vrndavana (and especially that of the gopis) was unexcelled, so I would say that they had already achieved Krsna-bhakti and were on the liberated platform, but were still attracted to His pastimes. About curiosity, I would say that this is were environmental characteristics take effect. Obviously a grand Sivarathri festival was planned somewhere and the inhabitants of Vrndavana wanted to attend the celebrations. Even today in India and especially in the villages, such festivals are an occasion for grand celebrations, is it not? And today these festivals seem to have transformed into something like funfairs. So it may be that the inhabitants just wanted to attend a festival and enjoy the celebrations, and in this way glorify Lord Shiva too, but that such events and festivals were not a regular affair as Srila Prabhupada states. > Here Srila Prabhupada makes a point about > materialistic people in tama > and rajo guna. They worship demigods because of > desire of sense > gratification. A Vaisnava, however, wants bhakti -- > it's something > completely different. I believe Srila Prabhupada > says in his Gita > commentary that one can worship demigods as > Vaisnavas. But I don't > remember the verse... I suppose that is true, because later in the same chapter of Krsna book, Srila Prabhupada writes: "The cowherd men who had come to execute the ritualistic function of worshiping Lord Siva and Ambika finished their business and prepared to return to Vrndavana. While returning, they recalled the wonderful activities of Krsna. By relating the incident of Vidyadhara's deliverance, they became more attached to Krsna. They had come to worship Lord Siva and Ambika, but they became more and more attached to Krsna. Similarly, the gopis also worshiped goddess Katyayani to become more and more attached to Krsna. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gita that persons who are attached to worshiping demigods like Lord Brahma, Siva, Indra and Candra, for some personal benefit, are less intelligent and have forgotten the real purpose of life. But the cowherd men, inhabitants of Vrndavana, were no ordinary men. Whatever they did, they did for Krsna. If one worships demigods like Lord Siva and Lord Brahma to become more attached to Krsna, that is approved. But if one goes to the demigods for some personal benefit, that is condemned." So it is obvious that the trip to Ambikavana had one chief result: their bhakti for Krsna became more intensified. And this is a practical example of the result that can be gained by worshipping demigods for advancement in Krsna consciousness. In this regard, I have to relate a personal experience of mine. Before I came to ISKCON, I was more inclined to Saivite philosophy because Shiva is my family deity. I really did not have clear spiritual ideas but I was inclined to Shiva. So when I came into ISKCON and became affected through Srila Prabhupada's books, I strove to rationalise how this had happened. How did I come from Shiva (Saivism) to Krishna (Vaishnavism) when the two seem to be poles apart? The conclusion that I reached was that I must have tried my best to please Lord Shiva without gain, and being the magnanimous Vaishnava that Lord Shiva really is, he might have shown me the path to Krishna. I fully believe that Lord Shiva showed me the path to Krishna and as such I offer my eternal obeisances to him. I was also please to know that Lord Shiva himself was a great Vaishnava and constantly meditates on Sankarsana in Illavrta-varsa. Of course, there are verse in BG and other books where Srila Prabhupada seems to hold no objection to demigod-worship providing that the request is to advance in Krsna Consciousness. But then I suppose that we have to use the same rationalisation that we use for other demigods: If the demigods have to ask permission from Krishna to bestow bendictions, then why not ask Krishna Himself? > we're trying to > become devotees of > Lord Krsna, not Siva. So we worship great devotees > of our sampradaya; > we pray to them. But if it's so, then we should > worship Lord Siva > also. I was thinking about that point just today. Not only is Shiva a great Vaishnava, but he is also the head of his own sampradaya too! But then again the same rationalisation is adapted: If we do not excessively glorify Ramanuja, Visnu Svami or Nimbarka, or even Lakshmi and the Four Kumaras, then is it right to excessively glorify Shiva? > Srila BR Sridhara > Maharaj wrote many bhajans, glorifying our Acaryas; > offerings to Srila > Gour Kisor Das Babaji, Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur... > Those are bhajans > glorifying great Vaisnavas. So logicaly bhaktas also > can sing bhajans > glorifying Lord Siva... > > Demigod He or not, He's a Vasinava first of all -- > isn't it? That is a good point. Please forgive me if I do not seem to speak concisely because you have brought up some good points that are hard to answer. As I have stated, Srila Prabhupada was not against the practice of demigod-worship per se unless it was for material benedictions that are against Krsna Consciousness. So I suppose that there is no serious objection the glorification of Shiva considering his status as a Vaishnava, only that this practice is not indulged in so much and that the devotees prefer to worship the satvic form of Lord Krsna and His all-good expansions. This discussion regarding an example in Krsna-lila reminded me of a another incident regarding the fight with Banasura, who had received benedictions from Shiva. If you kindly turn to Chapter 62: "Actually, there are two classes of men--one is Krsna conscious, the other is non-Krsna conscious. The non-Krsna conscious men are generally devoted to the demigods, whereas the Krsna conscious men are devoted to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Krsna conscious persons utilize everything for the service of the Lord. The non-Krsna conscious persons utilize everything for sense gratification, and Banasura is a perfect example of such a person. He was very anxious to utilize for his own satisfaction his extraordinary power to fight. Not finding any combatant, he struck his powerful hands against the mountains, breaking them into pieces. In contrast to this, Arjuna also possessed extraordinary powers for fighting, but he utilized them only for Krsna." This example shows that Banasura had materialistically worshipped Shiva for the prowess to fight, and then Srila Prabhupada contrasts this with Arjuna who was also a great fighter but who served Krsna's purpose with his skills. It seems to be an interesting dichotomy how Banasura got his powers from Shiva, but Arjuna had got his powers from Krsna and USED them for Krsna. So doesn't this mean that we should worship Krsna anyway since all abilities and skills come from Him anyway, regardless of demigod intercession? There is more at the end of Chapter 63: "This episode of Banasura's fighting with Krsna and later on being saved by the grace of Lord Siva is confirmation of the statement in the Bhagavad-gita that the worshipers of demigods cannot achieve any benediction without its being sanctioned by the Supreme Lord, Krsna. Here, in this narration, we find that although Banasura was a great devotee of Lord Siva, when he faced death by Krsna, Lord Siva was not able to save him. But Lord Siva appealed to Krsna to save his devotee, and this was sanctioned by the Lord. This is the position of Lord Krsna. The exact words used in this connection in the Bhagavad-gita are mayaiva vihitan hi tan. This means that without the sanction of the Supreme Lord, no demigod can award any benediction to the worshiper." I see that you have interestingly used the example of Srila BR Sridhara Maharaja's composition of bhajanas that glorify the previous Acharyas. Singing these songs can also be seen to glorify Sridhara Maharaja. Similarly, Srila Narottama das Thakura Mahasaya was a great compositionist and he is also simultaneously glorified whenever his bhajans are sung. >From this example, I will expect that to glorify Lord Shiva properly in a way that is ALSO pleasing to Lord Krishna, one may sing/recite the prayers by Lord Shiva that he gave to the Pracetas, http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/canto4/chapter24.html .. In service of Gaura-Nitai, Sanjay - We Remember 9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost http://dir.remember./tribute Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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