Katyayani vrata begins

[Guest guest]

>> We would like to remind you of this upcoming event.

 

Katyayani vrata begins <<

 

 

Yet another instance of demigod-worship on the BBT

Calendar. Isn't it about time we received some serious

answers about why demigod worship events are alerted

to the community of Vaishnava devotees?

 

Jay

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

On Tue, 19 Nov 2002, Dark Knight wrote:

>> Katyayani vrata begins <<

> Yet another instance of demigod-worship on the BBT

> Calendar. Isn't it about time we received some serious

> answers about why demigod worship events are alerted

> to the community of Vaishnava devotees?

 

The Katyayani-vrata was executed by the gopis for the purpose of gaining

Krsna as their husband, so it isn't at all comparable to ordinary demigod

worship. The gopis' worship cannot be imitated by people in general, but

neither is that necessarily the intent of its inclusion in our Vaisnava

calendar. Perhaps we are simply to be reminded of this sacred event as it

is described in the Srimad Bhagavatam (10.22.1-28), so that we may derive

some inspiration by remembering the gopis' pure determination. At least

that's how I take it. Having been away from email for some time, I haven't

noticed other instances of demigod worship, but I hope this answer is

helpful.

 

Mukunda Datta dasa

[Guest guest]

-

"Dark Knight" <dark_knight_9

<achintya>

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 11:49 AM

Re: Katyayani vrata begins

 

 

> >> We would like to remind you of this upcoming event.

>

> Katyayani vrata begins <<

>

>

> Yet another instance of demigod-worship on the BBT

> Calendar. Isn't it about time we received some serious

> answers about why demigod worship events are alerted

> to the community of Vaishnava devotees?

>

> Jay

 

This is to remember the gopis, and how they prayed to Katyayani to have

Krishna as their husband.

[Guest guest]

achintya, "M. Tandy" <mpt@u...> wrote:

> On Tue, 19 Nov 2002, Dark Knight wrote:

> >> Katyayani vrata begins <<

> > Yet another instance of demigod-worship on the BBT

> > Calendar. Isn't it about time we received some serious

> > answers about why demigod worship events are alerted

> > to the community of Vaishnava devotees?

>

> The Katyayani-vrata was executed by the gopis for the purpose of

gaining

> Krsna as their husband, so it isn't at all comparable to ordinary

demigod

> worship.

 

This is exactly how I took it.

 

The other instances of demigod worship mentioned on the BBT calendar

are Kali Puja which was mentioned on Diipaavali and another day

designated as Durga Puja, which I believe was at the end of October.

Nobody really explained why these are on the BBT calendar. I wonder

if they simply commemorate Pujas performed by other Hindus, or if

there is specific significance of these pujas for Vaishnavas.

 

- K

[Guest guest]

there is no reason, for a vaishnava, to not respect and offer homages to

demigods if he sees them as Krishna servants with the possibility to help us

to reach Krishna...

every devotee who (necessarily!!!!!!!) visit the beautiful Katyayani temple

in Vrindavana does not want to obtain money but prays:"Dear mother Durga

please be a little "lighter" to me with the big pressure of your maya power

and please, as the gopis did, help me to obtain the lotus feet of Bhagavan

Sri Krishna"

 

there is also the possibility to (try to) attend at the Demigods festivities

with Harinama Sankirtana

 

sorry for my english

 

h a r i b o l

 

_______________

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[Guest guest]

This is just my observation since I am married into a Bengali family.

 

Kali Puja, Durga Puja etc. are observed in West Bengal by Bengalis in a

grand way. In fact even Bengali families settled out of Bengal still

celebrate in their community.

 

I am wondering whether these dates came into our calendar because Srila

Prabhupada was from Bengal. Perhaps, the devotee who originally made the

calendars thought that this is the tradition - to observe all these pujas.

 

For example, the pujas observed by the South Indian community or Punjabi,

Sikh whatever are not to be found in our calendar. Only those that are

observed by the Bengali community.

 

It is just my guess that since Srila Prabhupada was from Bengal, someone

thougth that this is the tradition.

Forgive me for all my speculations.

 

Your servant

Sacidevi dasi

[Guest guest]

>

> Yet another instance of demigod-worship on the BBT

> Calendar. Isn't it about time we received some serious

> answers about why demigod worship events are alerted

> to the community of Vaishnava devotees?

>

> Jay

 

Haribol, All Glories to Srila Prabhupada, All Glories to Sri Sri Guru

and Gauranga,

Please accept my humble apologies, if I may inadvertently cause any

offence, for it is not intended.

 

I am not an expert on these matters, however, these dates are on the

calendar, probably as Srila Prabhupada instigated. Nevertheless, the

dates may also be there for the information of western devotees who

may not be familiar why certain things are happening in the

Indian/Hindu community. There are numerous other festivals and

ceremonies associated with various demigods, not all of these are on

the calendar, but what I have noticed is that these festivals and

vratas are mentioned in the Srimad Bhagavatam and Krsna books and

some of these are mentioned as being observed by the residents of

Gokul/Vrndavan, e.g. Gopis observed the Katyayani Vrata to obtain

Krsna and residents of Gokul went to another village to observe the

Maha Shivratri festival. The Pandavas also observed the Maha

Shivratri festival - remember the episode of them going to varnavata

and the house of lac.

 

Prabhu/s please don't be so antagonistic towards demigods. Remember

that the Pracetas (in SB Canto 4) were instructed by Lord Shiva how

to glorify Krnsa and thus obtain devotion. And there are numerous

other examples where demigod worship done in the proper way has led

to Krsna bhakti. Therefore, although the vast majority of people

worship demigods for material benedictions, this does not mean that

demigod worship itself is at fault or it is to be abandoned.

 

In my humble opinion, Srila Prabhupada did not authorise any demigod

worship simply for the benefit of western aspiring devotees who may

not know path to follow and also to instruct the Indian/Hindu

community of where they are going wrong.

 

Once again, please accept my humble apologies for I am not an expert

on these matters, nor do I wish to cause any offence, but I do

strongly believe that however pure our vaisnava standards are, only

Sri Krsna is the absolute truth and we shouldn't be getting on any

high horses etc claiming monopoly on the truth.

 

Hare Krishna

Mahendra

[Guest guest]

Dear devotees,

 

I would like to clarify that I personally do not have

any interest in defaming the demigods. As someone has

already said, they are much higher servitors of

Krishna and thus deserve the necessary respect

according to Vaisnava etiquette. Another devotee

stated something to the likes of "we should not be

excessively proud of having a monopoly on the truth

just because we know that Krishna is the Supreme."

Although I do agree in principle that we should not be

excessively proud about anything, not just spiritual

monopoly, but have received the mercy of Lord

Chaitanya even though we are most wretched and

unqualified to receive it. Having received such mercy,

it is only our proper duty to drink some of the nectar

and then share it with others. It is our duty to

preach the truth of Krishna Consciousness, and Lord

Chaitanya has specifically ordered us to do so,

without compromise.

 

I am glad that this has provoked discussion though.

Thank you all for your explanations.

 

The whole concept of "demigod worship" is a difficult

one to preach to Indians, or people of Indian origin.

It is an obstacle that I have to face almost every

time I have the opportunity to preach. It may be true

that different temperaments are required for different

people, but I find that the bold approach that Srila

Prbahupada employed often works best, coupled with

sastric quotations. Most people have nothing to say

when faced with Sri Krishna's words in Bhagavad-Gita

as stated in Chapter 7 and others.

 

The main problem is that people have been conditioned

to worship demigods. They have grown up seeing

mini-temples in every corner of India that are

dedicated to some demigod or other. They have grown up

witnessing the celebration of many minor festivals.

They have grown up listening to bhajans dedicated to

demigods. They themselves have prayed to different

gods. They may even have heard Mayavadi philosophy

that "it doesn't matter which god you pray to because

they are all one anyway." Some are even

anti-Prabhupada or anti-ISKCON. Therefore it is very

hard for people to realise and stomach the fact that

they have done the WRONG thing all their lives. After

all, Sri Krishna says that a little advancement in

devotional service is your asset forever, but how

would you feel it you lost it? If it even could be

lost? So we can empathise with their feelings I guess?

 

I found a nice purport in Srimad Bhagavatam that

nicely explained the whole case quite thoroughly. I

discovered it maybe 2 weeks ago, and so far I have not

received any objections so far. Please allow me to

show it to you:

 

[The setting is the sacrifice at which Daksa cursed

Lord Siva]

"After Lord Siva and, previously, Daksa, left the

arena of sacrifice, the sacrifice was not stopped; the

sages went on for many years in order to satisfy the

Supreme Lord. The sacrifice was not destroyed for want

of Siva and Daksa, and the sages went on with thir

activites. In other words, it may be assumed that if

one does not worship the demigods, even up to Lord

Siva and Brahma, one can nevertheless satisfy the

Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is also confirmed

in Bhagavad-gita (7.20). Kamais tais tair hrta-jnanah

prapadyanta 'nya-devatah. Persons who are impelled by

lust and desire go to the demigods to derive some

material benefits. Bhagavad-gita uses the very

specific words nasti buddhih, meaning 'persons who

have lost their sense or intelligence.'

"Only such persons care for demigods and want to

derive material benefit from them. Of course, this

does not mean that one should not show respect to the

demigods; but there is no need to worship them. One

who is honest may be faithful to the government, but

he does not need to bribe the government servants.

Bribery is illegal, one does not bribe a government

servant, but that does not mean that one does not show

him respect. Similarly, one who engages in the

transcendental loving service of the Supreme Lord does

not need to worship any demigod, nor does he have any

tendency to show disrespect to the demigods. Elsewhere

in Bhagavad-gita (9.23) it is stated, ye 'py

anya-devata-bhakta yajanta sraddhayanvitah. The Lord

says that anyone who worships the demigods is also

worshipping Him, but he is worshipping

avidhi-purvakam, which means 'without following the

regulative principles.' The regulative principle is to

worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Worship of

demigods may indirectly be worship of the Personality

of Godhead, but it is not regulated. By worshipping

the Supreme Lord, one automatically serves all the

demigods because they are parts and parcels of the

whole. If one supplies water to the root of a tre, all

the parts of the tree, such as the leaves and

branches, are automatically satisfied, and if one

supplies food to the stomach, all the limbs of the

body - the hands, legs, fingers, etc. - are nourished.

Thus by worshipping the Supreme Personality of Godhead

one can satisfy all the demigods, but by worshipping

all the demigods one does not completely worship the

Supreme Lord. Therefore worship of the demigods is

irregular, and it is disrespectful to the scriptural

injunctions.

"In this age of Kali it is practically impossible

perform the deva-yajna, or sacrifices to the demigods.

As such, in this age Srimad-Bhagavatam recommends

sankirtana-yajna. Yajnaih sankirtana-prayair yajanti

hi sumedhasah (Bhag 11.5.32). 'In this age the

intelligent person completes the performances of all

kinds of yajnas simply by chanting Hare Krsna, Hare

Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama,

Rama Rama, Hare Hare.' Tasmin tuste jagat tustah:

'When Lord Visnu is satisfied, all the demigods, who

are parts and parcels of the Supreme Lord, are

satisfied.'" - Srimad Bhagavatam 4.2.35 (purport)

 

I think this solves the whole case. Any thoughts?

 

Jay

 

P.S. Apologies for not continuing the series of Sri

Caitanya Candramrta and Sri Padyavali. I have been

having problems with my computer that have now been

solved by reformatting my drive. The series will

resume very soon.

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

achintya, Dark Knight <dark_knight_9> wrote:

 

> The main problem is that people have been conditioned

> to worship demigods. They have grown up seeing

> mini-temples in every corner of India that are

> dedicated to some demigod or other. They have grown up

> witnessing the celebration of many minor festivals.

> They have grown up listening to bhajans dedicated to

> demigods. .... Therefore it is very

> hard for people to realise and stomach the fact that

> they have done the WRONG thing all their lives.

 

Hmm, I would be careful about blanket statements such as these.

Demigod worship isn't "wrong," since such worship is enjoined in the

shaastras for certain people. Rather, I think what you mean is that,

the idea that worship of a particular demigod will lead to liberation

and equals worship of the Supreme Lord is incorrect, and this is what

many Hindus have trouble dealing with.

 

I advise against trying to destroy the faith of anyone engaged in

worship of their ishta-devata; this will likely be counter

productive. If worst comes to worse, such anya-devata worship is at

least indirect worship of Krishna, and can lead to a more pious birth

in the next life if properly performed. Such people can be preached

to on the level of Vedic regulative principles, and one can always

offer one's association in a nonjudgemental way. It's always

important when preaching, that your audience realize that you have

their best interests at heart; at the same time one has to avoid

coming across as condescending. Very often people who come across as

stubborn in their views can be won over simply by friendship and good

association.

 

yours,

 

- K

[Guest guest]

>> Hmm, I would be careful about blanket statements

such as these. Demigod worship isn't "wrong," since

such worship is enjoined in the shaastras for certain

people. <<

 

And that is the whole point of Krishna Conscious

preaching; to teach the people that demigod worship

leads practically nowhere in the grand scheme of

things, and that they are better off realising their

servantship of Sri Krishna and worshipping Him or His

Visnu-tattva expansions.

 

>> If worst comes to worse, such anya-devata worship

is at least indirect worship of Krishna, and can lead

to a more pious birth in the next life if properly

performed. Such people can be preached to on the level

of Vedic regulative principles, and one can always

offer one's association in a nonjudgemental way. <<

 

That is also true, but Srila Prabhupada specifically

says that demigod worship is avidhi-purvakam, "which

means 'without following the regulative principles.'

The regulative principle is to worship the Supreme

Personality of Godhead. Worship of demigods may

indirectly be worship of the Personality of Godhead,

but it is not regulated." Actually this

"avidhi-purvakam" idea was spoken by Sri Krishna since

Srila Prabhupada is only quoting from Bhagavad-gita.

That means that Sri Bhagavan and Sri Guru are

repeating the same thing, that it is unregulated and

ireegular to worship the demigods.

 

As for indirect worship of Krishna, again Srila

Prabhupada said specifically that "worship of the

demigods is irregular, and it is disrespectful to the

scriptural injunctions," so I fail to see how a higher

birth can be achieved if such disrespect is occurring.

 

Disrespectfulness to the scriptural injunctions

constitutes sastra-aparadha. We can speculate about

which aparadha is major or minor, but aparadhas will

still block us from attaining suddha-bhakti. It's the

regulative principle to worship Krishna ONLY (mam EKAM

saranam vraja). Krishna says it, the sastra says it,

the saintly persons say it, Sri Guru says it, so this

leads only to one conclusion, which is obvious.

 

>> It's always important when preaching, that your

audience realize that you have their best interests at

heart; <<

 

Yes, that's also true. At the same time it is also

important to preach the Krishna conception as was

given to us by Sri Guru in it's pure form without

compromise. That itself is the "real welfare work"

that Srila Prabhupada used to speak about so often, to

give Krishna to the masses. If we justify such things

as at least performing irregular worship that will

lead to a higher birth, then we run the risk of

diluting and compromising what Srila Prabhupada gave

us, and we will also be guilty of not passing on the

message transparently. Those are also aparadhas in

themselves.

 

In short, we are preaching Vedic truth. It is all very

well for people who do not understand it, but sooner

or later they will have to accept it.

 

And the standard as given by Srila Prabhupada is

clear: "One who engages in the transcendental loving

service of the Supreme Lord does not need to worship

any demigod,there is no need to worship them,"

"worship of the demigods is irregular, and it is

disrespectful to the scriptural injunctions."

 

And it is our duty to preach this, without compromise.

 

In service of Gaura-Nitai,

 

Jay

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

PAMHO, AGTSP, AGTSSG+G,

 

Please be aware that in my lengthy comments on Katyayani Vrata and

Demigods, in no way am I condoning demigod worship, all I am

encouraging is the deepest respect of all demigods and their

association and for their guidance.

 

All great acaryas are always hankering for the association of the

devotees and this is the mood we should try to develop.

 

We should always remember that the pastimes of Krishna involving the

demigods in no way belittles the demigods. These pastimes are simply

there to encourage us, fallen jivas, to learn the vital lesson that

no matter how big we think we have become we can still fall down -

and therefore there is still a very very very long way for us to go

on the ladder towards pure bhakti to Krishna.

 

In our efforts to encourage worshippers of demigods, we should always

be compassionate and never disturb their sadhana (whatever that may

be).

 

I apologise if I may have sounded a bit "high fallutin" in my

verbiage earlier. I have read the replies from all of you and am

heartened to realise that you did not mean any offence to any

demigods and that all of you are in fact very highly elevated

devotees who did not condemn me for my rash comments.

 

I thank all the devotees for their encouraging remarks too.

 

Vancha kalpa tarubhyas ca

krpa sindubhya eva ca

patitanam pavenabhyo

vaisnavebhyo namo namah.

 

Haribol

Mahendra

[Guest guest]

achintya, Dark Knight <dark_knight_9> wrote:

 

> And that is the whole point of Krishna Conscious

> preaching; to teach the people that demigod worship

> leads practically nowhere in the grand scheme of

> things, and that they are better off realising their

> servantship of Sri Krishna and worshipping Him or His

> Visnu-tattva expansions.

 

I understand what you are saying, but again, I think one should be

very careful about the language one uses. The purpose of our

preaching should be to transform the misdirected faith rather than

destroy it. We aren't talking about people who worship false avatars

or blasphemous souls; we are talking about people who only worship

demigods, for which there is abundant Vedic precedent. So where does

that demigod worship lead? The Gita says it clearly:

 

antavat tu phala.m teShaa.m tad bhavaty alpa-medhasaam |

devaan deva-yajo yaanti mad-bhaktaa yaanti maam api ||giitaa 7.23||

 

Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are

limited and temporary. Those who worship the demigods go to the

planets of the demigods, but My devotees ultimately reach My supreme

planet. (bhagavad-giitaa 7.23)

 

So worship of demigods does lead somewhere - to the planets of the

demigods. But why don't we want to go there? Because the Gita also

says:

 

aa-brahma-bhuvanaal lokaaH punar aavartino 'rjuna |

maam upetya tu kaunteya punar janma na vidyate || giitaa 8.16 ||

 

>From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all

are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But

one who attains to My abode, O son of KuntI, never takes birth again.

(bhagavad-giitaa 8.16)

 

Because those planets are also temporary, the pleasures within them

are also temporary, and they are not free from the cycle of birth and

death. So sure, you can worship the demigods, but if after all that

piety and austerity, you get only a temporary benefit, then why not

reconsider whom you worship and your reason for offering worship?

 

The question here is one of emphasis. Sure, objectively speaking, the

planets of the demigods are "nowhere" in the grand scheme of things;

everything is "nowhere" in the grand scheme of things unless you are

in Vaikuntha. But we aren't talking about objective human beings, but

rather about people who have a sentimental and/or longstanding

attachment to their particular form of worship. Culture and

redirection are the key here. We are talking about people who may be

very pious and possibly even brahminical in some respects; how many

of us were raised in India and can claim to have retained some of the

subtle nuance of Vedic culture? We have to be able to speak to them

on their level or better, which is to say that we have to demonstrate

a superior level of refinement and culture, lest we be perceived as

fanatical or intolerant.

 

> That is also true, but Srila Prabhupada specifically

> says that demigod worship is avidhi-purvakam, "which

> means 'without following the regulative principles.'

 

Look closely. It may be a fine point, but what Srila Prabhupada

specifically translates "avidhi-puurvakam" as in BG 9.23 is "in a

wrong way." It's wrong because the demigods don't grant any benefits

themselves; such benefits are granted by the Lord alone (BG 7.22),

and the Lord is thus the only enjoyer of all sacrifices (BG 9.24).

 

> The regulative principle is to worship the Supreme

> Personality of Godhead. Worship of demigods may

> indirectly be worship of the Personality of Godhead,

> but it is not regulated."

 

This is not correct. There are regulative principles for the worship

of various demigods. Otherwise, how do you explain the following

verse:

 

kaamais tais tair hR^ita-j~naanaaH prapadyante 'nya-devataaH |

ta.m ta.m niyamam aasthaaya prakR^ityaa niyataaH svayaa || giitaa

7.20 ||

 

Those whose intelligence has been stolen by material desires

surrender unto demigods and follow the particular rules and

regulations of worship according to their own natures. (bhagavad-

giitaa 7.20)

 

Commenting on this verse, Srila Prabhupada writes, "Less intelligent

people who have lost their spiritual sense take shelter of demigods

for immediate fulfillment of material desires... Following the rules

and regulations of worship, they are satisfied... Because in Vedic

literature there are recommendations for worshiping different gods

for different purposes (e.g., a diseased man is recommended to

worship the sun), those who are not devotees of the Lord think that

for certain purposes demigods are better than the Supreme Lord."

 

The point here is not that demigod worship is fine and good or even

just as good as Krishna-worship; the point is simply that there is

Vedic precedent for demigod worship. The job of the Krishna-bhakta is

to show the evidence demonstrating the more intelligent basis for

Krishna worship, and to nudge the demigod worshippers in the proper

direction for their own spiritual good.

 

Actually this

> "avidhi-purvakam" idea was spoken by Sri Krishna since

> Srila Prabhupada is only quoting from Bhagavad-gita.

> That means that Sri Bhagavan and Sri Guru are

> repeating the same thing, that it is unregulated and

> ireegular to worship the demigods.

 

Demigod nature is not by its nature unregulated; conversely, I am

sure you can find examples of Krishna worship in the West that is

very unregulated. Clearly, one who wishes to worship the demigods

cannot do so whimsically - he has to follow the appropriate

regulative principles even if his desires are mundane.

 

> As for indirect worship of Krishna, again Srila

> Prabhupada said specifically that "worship of the

> demigods is irregular, and it is disrespectful to the

> scriptural injunctions," so I fail to see how a higher

> birth can be achieved if such disrespect is occurring.

 

Where exactly in BG As It Is does Srila Prabhupada write any such

thing? I did a search for that sentence exactly as you wrote it and

found nothing.

 

There is a higher birth awaiting one who properly worships a

particular demigod; this is obvious from BG 7.23 which says as much.

The problem is that such "higher births" are still within the realm

of the material universe, and thus they are not free from the cycle

of birth and death.

 

> Disrespectfulness to the scriptural injunctions

> constitutes sastra-aparadha. We can speculate about

> which aparadha is major or minor, but aparadhas will

> still block us from attaining suddha-bhakti. It's the

> regulative principle to worship Krishna ONLY (mam EKAM

> saranam vraja). Krishna says it, the sastra says it,

> the saintly persons say it, Sri Guru says it, so this

> leads only to one conclusion, which is obvious.

 

I think you are confusing regulative principles with conclusions. The

conclusion is that Krishna worship is that which leads to the highest

goal, demigod worship being at best temporarily beneficial and at

worst misleading from the supreme goal. Demigod worship is not, to

the best of my knowledge, a "shaastra-aparaadha." If it were, then

much of the Vedas (karma-kaanda) would be guilty of aparaadha to

itself. That is, unless you are prepared to prove that all those

statements recommending worship of various demigods in fact refers

only to the Supreme Lord and not to the demigods. I somehow doubt

that you are prepared to do that.

 

> Yes, that's also true. At the same time it is also

> important to preach the Krishna conception as was

> given to us by Sri Guru in it's pure form without

> compromise.

 

One should *not* compromise on the truth of Krishna-consciousness,

but this isn't the same thing as being uncompromising in the face of

opposition. My point is simply that one should speak the truth, but

carry a small stick (and rely instead on gentlemanly behavior and

sincere compassion). Unless of course, one is a kshatriya, in which

case one should carry a club or a sword or something...

 

That itself is the "real welfare work"

> that Srila Prabhupada used to speak about so often, to

> give Krishna to the masses. If we justify such things

> as at least performing irregular worship that will

> lead to a higher birth, then we run the risk of

> diluting and compromising what Srila Prabhupada gave

> us, and we will also be guilty of not passing on the

> message transparently. Those are also aparadhas in

> themselves.

 

But we should also be careful that we don't take more liberty than we

are allowed when we criticize other points of view. For example, your

view that demigod worship is a "shaastra-aparaadha" strikes me as a

bit of a stretch. It is what it is, but we need not pile on

extraneous adjectives - it's not as if such types of "preaching" are

really effective in my experience. It amounts to trying to destroy

another person's faith rather than transforming it. When you consider

the invasion of Western pop culture (i.e. MTV) into India, I think

you can think of greater "evils" than demigod worship. That anyone in

India even bothers to worship anyone is certainly amazing, even more

so when the object of worship is actually a Vedic deity.

 

yours,

 

- K

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna.

 

I agree with most of your views except for certain points:

 

achintya, "krishna_susarla" <krishna_susarla@h...> wrote:

 

>> But we aren't talking about objective human beings, but rather

about people who have a sentimental and/or longstanding attachment to

their particular form of worship. <<

 

Exactly, and it is these people who must be shown the error of their

ways and that it is the correct and ultimate goal of life to worship

Krishna. Logically, easily or forcefully, the truth is the same, but

it must be preached.

 

> > The regulative principle is to worship the Supreme

> > Personality of Godhead. Worship of demigods may

> > indirectly be worship of the Personality of Godhead,

> > but it is not regulated."

>

> This is not correct. There are regulative principles for the

worship

> of various demigods. Otherwise, how do you explain the following

> verse:

 

Well, the question of 'correctness' does not apply here, because this

was a line directly from Srila Prabhupada's purport.

 

> kaamais tais tair hR^ita-j~naanaaH prapadyante 'nya-devataaH |

> ta.m ta.m niyamam aasthaaya prakR^ityaa niyataaH svayaa || giitaa

> 7.20 ||

>

> Those whose intelligence has been stolen by material desires

> surrender unto demigods and follow the particular rules and

> regulations of worship according to their own natures. (bhagavad-

> giitaa 7.20)

 

I think you're basically mixing up the definition of "regulations" as

pertaining to two different categories. I do not know the Sanskrit

terms for such concepts so let me just describe in English.

There may be two types of 'regulation' involved. What Srila

Prabhupada is saying is that it is the "regulative principle" to

worship Krishna (such as 'sarvadharman parityajya,' etc) and that it

is not regulated to worship the demigods.

 

When you say that there are regulative principles for worshipping the

demigods, I think you are mixing up the directions for each demigod's

*pooja*. There seem to be two different concepts of regulation here,

but the context of both has to be understood clearly and concisely.

 

> > As for indirect worship of Krishna, again Srila

> > Prabhupada said specifically that "worship of the

> > demigods is irregular, and it is disrespectful to the

> > scriptural injunctions," so I fail to see how a higher

> > birth can be achieved if such disrespect is occurring.

>

> Where exactly in BG As It Is does Srila Prabhupada write any such

> thing? I did a search for that sentence exactly as you wrote it and

> found nothing.

 

I do not know why you are reading Bhagavd-gita. The entire purport

that I quoted is that of Srimad Bhagavatam 4.2.35 .

 

> > Disrespectfulness to the scriptural injunctions

> > constitutes sastra-aparadha. We can speculate about

> > which aparadha is major or minor, but aparadhas will

> > still block us from attaining suddha-bhakti. It's the

> > regulative principle to worship Krishna ONLY (mam EKAM

> > saranam vraja). Krishna says it, the sastra says it,

> > the saintly persons say it, Sri Guru says it, so this

> > leads only to one conclusion, which is obvious.

>

> I think you are confusing regulative principles with conclusions.

The

> conclusion is that Krishna worship is that which leads to the

highest

> goal, demigod worship being at best temporarily beneficial and at

> worst misleading from the supreme goal.

 

 

>> Demigod worship is not, to the best of my knowledge, a "shaastra-

aparaadha." If it were, then much of the Vedas (karma-kaanda) would

be guilty of aparaadha to itself. That is, unless you are prepared to

prove that all those statements recommending worship of various

demigods in fact refers only to the Supreme Lord and not to the

demigods. I somehow doubt that you are prepared to do that. <<

 

Nobody said that demigod-worship is sastra-aparadha, but disrespcting

the sastra and the sastric conclusions is a sastra-aparadha. As for

directions in the karma-kanda of Vedas, it has been repeated by Srila

Prabhupada over and over again that only more or less unintelligent

people are bewildered by such "flowery words." The REAL end of the

Vedas is Krishna, vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyah. The intelligent

person will realise this after many births and deaths (bahunam

janmanam ante), etc.

 

>> One should *not* compromise on the truth of Krishna-consciousness,

but this isn't the same thing as being uncompromising in the face of

opposition. <<

 

Could you explain more clearly what you mean by this? Isn't

opposition the very reason for real preaching?

 

Oh and by the way, a friend from IndiaDivine sent me this very nice

quote:

 

"TRANSLATION Adi 10.11

These four brothers and their family members fully engaged in the

service of Lord Caitanya. They knew no other god or goddess.

 

PURPORT

Srila Narottama däsa Thäkura has said, anya-deväçraya näi, tomäre

kahinu bhäi, ei bhakti parama-käraëa: if one wants to become a pure,

staunch devotee, one should not take shelter of any of the demigods

or -goddesses. Foolish Mäyävädis say that worshiping demigods is as

good as worshiping the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but that is

not a fact. This philosophy misleads people to atheism. One who has

no idea what God actually is thinks that any form he imagines or any

rascal he accepts can be God. This acceptance of cheap gods or

incarnations of God is actually atheism. It is to be concluded,

therefore, that those who worship demigods or self-proclaimed

incarnations of God are all atheists. They have lost their knowledge,

as confirmed in the Bhagavad-gétä (7.20): kämais tais tair håta-

jïänäù prapadyante nya-devatäù.Those whose minds are distorted by

material desires surrender unto demigods.Unfortunately, those who do

not cultivate Krsna consciousness and do not properly understand the

Vedic knowledge accept any rascal to be an incarnation of God, and

they are of the opinion that one can become an incarnation simply by

worshiping a demigod. This philosophical hodge-podge exists under the

name of the Hindu religion, but the Krsna consciousness movement does

not approve of it. Indeed, we strongly condemn it. Such worship of

demigods and so-called incarnations of God should never be confused

with the pure Krsna consciousness movement."

 

In service of Gaura-Nitai,

 

Jay