Any truly ordinary or fallen persons who become perfect?

[Guest guest]

I don't know whether Bhaktivinode Thakura ever ate meat. All I know

is that he was a great devotee whether or not he started out that

way. Though the question I have is related to this, it looks at the

situation rather differently.

 

Most all the acaryas, as well as the associates of Mahaprabhu etc.

are said to have been nitya-siddha. Though some of them are said to

have been demigods in previous births. And I know that devotees

relish these facts. It is nice to think of a great personality as

truly flawless with not even a background of defect. But one effect

of this is that it means there is a substantial difference between

them and us...or many of us anyway.

 

Some of the forum members may come from pious families and may never

have eaten mean or tasted alcohol. But others may have indulged in

many sinful activities. As one who does come from a fallen

background, I am wondering if there are any acaryas or perfected

personalities who WERE NOT nitya siddha or even demigods? Are there

examples of those who achieved perfection who were once fallen,

conditioned souls? This is an important question to me because as

wonderful as it is to admire the exalted always liberated persons,

examples of someone was more like me to start out with, but who

actually achieved perfection, would be an enormous inspiration and

role model.

[Guest guest]

I am wondering if there are any acaryas or perfected

> personalities who WERE NOT nitya siddha or even demigods? Are there

> examples of those who achieved perfection who were once fallen,

> conditioned souls? This is an important question to me because as

> wonderful as it is to admire the exalted always liberated persons,

> examples of someone was more like me to start out with, but who

> actually achieved perfection, would be an enormous inspiration and

> role model.

 

There was Prahlada Maharaja, who was a demon in his previous life, and

accidentally observed an ekadasi, under a quite dubious circumstance -- he was

love-lorn, and refused to eat. As he's standing on my altar right now at Lord

Nrsimhadeva's lotus feet, I'm pretty certain that he achieved perfection. All

glories to Sri-Sri Prahlada-Nrsimha!

 

Your Servant,

Maharani dasi

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

On Mon, 2 Dec 2002, KrsnaNama wrote:

> I don't know whether Bhaktivinode Thakura ever ate meat. All I know

> is that he was a great devotee whether or not he started out that

> way. Though the question I have is related to this, it looks at the

> situation rather differently.

 

Sometimes a simple approach is the best. Krsna consciousness

is actually very simple for those who are simply interested in Krsna

consciousness. Otherwise, it can get as complicated as can be imagined,

and in this case, it often is.

 

 

 

> Most all the acaryas, as well as the associates of Mahaprabhu etc.

> are said to have been nitya-siddha. Though some of them are said to

> have been demigods in previous births. And I know that devotees

> relish these facts. It is nice to think of a great personality as

> truly flawless with not even a background of defect. But one effect

> of this is that it means there is a substantial difference between

> them and us...or many of us anyway.

 

Yes, this is a perennial problem. I think this is why the acaryas

teach us by their own lives. Arjuna, who acted like he was bewildered

even though he wasn't, is perhaps the best example; had he not behaved in

the way he did, neither would we have his example, nor would there have

been any plausible grounds for Krsna to speak His Bhagavad-gita. So it

is with other nitya-siddhas, like Bhaktivinoda Thakura.

 

 

 

> As one who does come from a fallen

> background, I am wondering if there are any acaryas or perfected

> personalities who WERE NOT nitya siddha or even demigods? Are there

> examples of those who achieved perfection who were once fallen,

> conditioned souls?

 

There may be some other statement I'm not aware of, but Srila

Bilvamangala Thakura seems like an excellent example of a devotee who was

previously quite ordinary--even quite worldly--and yet he attained an

exalted stage of bhakti in one lifetime--through his sheer determination

to become Krsna conscious at all costs. As most of us know, he was insanely

attached to illicit sex, like many of us in the modern world. Yet he

was able to overcome this attachment through good advice he was also

humble enough to accept even from a whore. His apparently genuine

struggle provides an authentic example we can all emulate, if we but

choose to do so. Because he was honest and seriously dedicated, he

eventually came to the stage at which Krsna personally came to listen to

him sing every day, bringing with Him milk for Bilvamangala to drink.

 

For me, at least, Bilvamangala Thakura's example thus provides an

enormous inspiration. I see absolutely no reason to assume that we cannot

do as he did if we are serious, by Divine grace.

 

Still, it seems that the examples of the nitya-siddhas aren't

actually any less relevent, for several reasons. After all, since time

itself is conspicuous by its absence in the spiritual realm, every one of

us is in some sense a nitya-siddha; ontologically, no other possibility

exists. Moreover, in what is possibly another acintya-bhedabheda truth,

our acaryas most definitely do seem to be conditioned, even though we

know (at least theoretically) that they really aren't. The first

perception gives us some hope of identifying with them, while the second

safeguards that we do not take them too cheaply. The relevence of

either one is practically determined by one's personal adhikara, or faith.

The apparent dichotomy is somewhat similar to the supralogic by which we

can accept the bonafide guru as the very form (svarupa) of Lord Krsna

Himself (cf. Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila, 1.47, etc.), and yet merely

His pure devotee, at one and the same time. There are many such

inconceivable truths.

 

MDd