Siddha-pranali

[Guest guest]

On Sun, 8 Dec 2002, Jay <dark_knight_9 wrote:

> I would especially like to view the quotes of Srila Prabhupada on

> this subject. I came across a few a while back, but didn't pay much

> attention to them as it seemed a bogus concept. So I would like to

> see those quotes again if anyone can be kind enough to post them,

> especially if it is possible that we will discuss the issue here from

> the other viewpoint.

 

If I recall correctly, this has been discussed here on Achintya

before, but here is one quote from Srila Prabhupada (Nectar of Devotion,

Ch 16):

 

"In this connection, we should be careful about the so-called

siddha-pranali. The siddha-pranali process is followed by a class of men

who are not very authorized and who have manufactured their own way of

devotional service. They imagine that they have become associates of the

Lord simply by thinking of themselves like that. This external behavior

is not at all according to the regulative principles. The so-called

siddha-pranali process is followed by the prakrta-sahajiya, a pseudosect

of so-called Vaisnavas. In the opinion of Rupa Gosvami, such activities

are simply disturbances to the standard way of devotional service."

 

 

Although there is a bonafide process of siddha-pranali, its

virtually invariable abuse by sahajiya rascals warrants Srila Prabhupada's

depiction above, in which he neglects to even mention that some previous

acaryas taught it. The practical conclusion for ordinary people like us

is that siddha-pranali is, defacto, an unscrupulous deviation; those who

are wise will do well to respect the authority of Srila Prabhupada's

discrimination; he generally dismissed the babaji's malpractice as a

sahajiya nuisance. Here is an example, from a conversation on 6/7/76 in

Los Angeles:

 

Prabhupada: Then everything will be finished. Preaching will be finished.

In this sahajiya party, then preaching will be finished. Siddha-pranali.

Tamala Krsna: What does that mean, Srila Prabhupda, siddha-pranali?

Prabhupada: Siddha-pranali is nonsense. They have manufactured a

siddha-pranali.

Ramesvara: (break) ...the initiation that you are given your siddhas, your

eternal position.

Tamala Krsna: There are some very strange notes. You should see those

notes.

Ramesvara: Yes, Ive read them all already.

Tamala Krsna: You did?

Prabhupada: They have learned it from these Radha-kunda babajis.

Tamala Krsna: From Radha-kunda babajis?

Prabhupada: Babajis, yes. After all, theyre fool, rascals, so whatever

they say.

Ramesvara: The dangerous thing is that they are using your book for

authority.

Prabhupada: That's all right. Authority, where? What is that? That I've

already explained. Why these rascals do not take the lessons of Caitanya

Mahaprabhu that we are all rascals, fools? No. That they will not take.

Theyll take the Radharani's bhava. What Caitanya Mahprabhu is teaching by

His practical life, that we have to take.

 

 

Since siddha-pranali is a rare, exalted, and confidential thing, I

suggest that it is appropriate to inquire about it from one's guru, rather

than trying to discuss it in public. Of course, this assumes that one has

a bonafide guru in the first place, without which it is pointless to discuss

it at all. Humble service to--and training from--a bonafide guru is a

much more basic necessity. Chadiya vaisnava-seva, payeche nistara keba.

A chief characteristic of the Sahajiya tendency--and sahajiyas themselves--is

that they constantly seek to circumvent our really crucial needs.

 

I hope this information proves useful.

 

MDd

[Guest guest]

achintya, "M. Tandy" <mpt@u...> wrote:

 

>> Although there is a bonafide process of siddha-pranali, its

virtually invariable abuse by sahajiya rascals warrants Srila

Prabhupada's depiction above, in which he neglects to even mention

that some previous acaryas taught it. The practical conclusion for

ordinary people like us is that siddha-pranali is, defacto, an

unscrupulous deviation; those who are wise will do well to respect

the authority of Srila Prabhupada's discrimination; he generally

dismissed the babaji's malpractice as a sahajiya nuisance. <<

 

Thank you for posting those quotes. They confirmed what I thought and

were again confirmed by what you say above; that there actually *is*

a bona-fide purpose of siddha-pranali and it was taught by previous

acharyas, but that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati and Srila

Prabhupada decried only the process of misuse of it by those who used

it for their own ends. Do you have any quotes by Srila

Bhaktisiddhanta about siddha-pranali? I would be interested to see

those too, and I forgot to ask for it last time.

 

However, I am not sure about your conclusion that it is an

unscrupulous deviation. Srila Prabhupada mentions something

interesting here:

 

"We have to accept everything favourable to the circumstances.

Rejection of other methods in a particular circumstance does not mean

that the rejected ones are not bona fide. But for the time being,

taking into consideration the age, time, and object, methods are

sometimes rejected even though bona fide. We have to test everything

by its practical result. By such a test, in this age the constant

chanting of the Hare Krsna maha-mantra undoubtedly proves very

effective." - [srila Prabhupada, Sri Namamrta p.58-59]

 

Even though I am sure that this quote was not spoken in direct

relevance to the topic of siddha-pranali, we can see that it is

relevant somehow.

 

I read with interest some of Madhavananda prabhu's posts, and I may

reply in dept later, but I read with interest the topic of "Siksa vs.

Diksa" on his board. I also came across a discussion thread that may

answer our questions about this topic in clarity and depth:

 

http://www.raganuga.com/d/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=13

 

Also, I read with interest your quote about Srila Prabhupada that

generally stated that to advance to higher levels of devotion, we

should first come to the stage of anartha-nivrtti. I was particularly

interested in this part of the quote: "First business is anartha-

nivrtti syat. Adau sraddha tatha sadhu-sango 'tha bhajana-kriya tato

anartha-nivrtti syat. You adopt this means that you have got full

faith that Krsna consciousness will save me. Then you live with

devotees who are similarly determined. Then you execute devotional

service. Then anartha-nivrtti syat, youll be free from all these....

These are the stages. There is.... Up to anartha-nivrtti, you have to

struggle very hard with determination, and then automatically

everything will come."

 

The "adau sraddha" Sanskrit part is obviously a quotation from the

Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu of Srila Rupa Goswami. However, I noted this

in the Q&A section of the Raganuga site, under the heading "Should

one be free from anarthas before taking up the practice of raganuga-

bhakti?" :

 

[Visvanatha Cakravarti explains in his Raga Vartma Candrika that

purification from anarthas is a part of the process of raganuga

sadhana:]

 

"Now it will be described how the raganugiya bhakta gradually

advances through the stages of anartha nivrtti (cessation of bad

habits), nistha (fixation), ruci (taste), and asakti (attachment to

the beloved deity) up to the stage of prema (love of God) and the

direct attainment of his beloved deity." (RVC 2.7)

 

"Lord Krishna describes (Srimad Bhagavata 11.14.26) how the devotee

on the path of sacred passion advances and becomes more purified and

more obsessed with sacred greed day by day, from the initial stage of

surrender to the feet of a guru up to the point in which he directly

attains the Lord: 'The more one's mind gets purified by hearing and

chanting of My beautiful pastimes, the better one is able to discern

the subtle reality, just as the eye is better able to perceive more

and more subtle things when it is treated with medicinal ointment.'"

(RVC 1.8) - http://www.raganuga.com/qa/q-2-3.html

 

Assuming that this is a correct translation of the Raga-vartma-

candrika, Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti seems to be saying that anartha-

nivrrti and the stages above that will be reached even by a

raganugiya sadhaka.

 

How do we reconcile these seemingly different statements from two

shastras?

 

In service of Gaura-Nitai,

 

Jay

[Guest guest]

The original Sanskrit for the texts Jay quoted from the Raganuga website is

reproduced below. The language is very clear and leaves little room for

interpretation.

 

sa ca lobho rAga vartma varttinAM bhaktAnAM guru-pAdAzrayalakSaNam Arabhya

svAbhISTa vastu sAkSAt prApti samayam abhivyApya “yathA yathAtmA

parimRjyate’sau, mat puNya gAthA zravaNAbhidhAnaiH. tathA tathA pazyati vastu

sUkSmaM, cakSur yathaivAJjana saMprayuktam.” iti bhagavad ukter bhakti

hetukAntaH karaNa zuddhi tAratamyAt pratidinam adhikAdhiko bhavati. (1.8)

 

atha rAgAnugA bhakti majjanasyAnartha nivRtti niStha-rucyAsaktyantaraM

prema-bhUmikArUdhasya sAkSAt svAbhISTa-prApti-prakAraH pradarSyate. (2.7)

 

You can download the original sanskrit of Raga Vartma Candrika from the Grantha

Mandira: http://www.granthamandira.org/ggm/ggm.php?action=file&id=29

 

Regards,

 

Madhava

 

 

 

= = = = = = = =

 

However, I noted this in the Q&A section of the Raganuga site, under the heading

"Should one be free from anarthas before taking up the practice of

raganuga-bhakti?" :[Visvanatha Cakravarti explains in his Raga Vartma Candrika

that purification from anarthas is a part of the process of raganuga

sadhana:]"Now it will be described how the raganugiya bhakta gradually advances

through the stages of anartha nivrtti (cessation of bad habits), nistha

(fixation), ruci (taste), and asakti (attachment to the beloved deity) up to

the stage of prema (love of God) and the direct attainment of his beloved

deity." (RVC 2.7)"Lord Krishna describes (Srimad Bhagavata 11.14.26) how the

devotee on the path of sacred passion advances and becomes more purified and

more obsessed with sacred greed day by day, from the initial stage of surrender

to the feet of a guru up to the point in which he directly attains the Lord:

'The more one's mind gets purified by hearing and chanting of My beautiful

pastimes, the better one is able to discern the subtle reality, just as the eye

is better able to perceive more and more subtle things when it is treated with

medicinal ointment.'" (RVC 1.8) - http://www.raganuga.com/qa/q-2-3.htmlAssuming

that this is a correct translation of the Raga-vartma-candrika, Srila Visvanatha

Cakravarti seems to be saying that anartha-nivrrti and the stages above that

will be reached even by a raganugiya sadhaka.

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, Jay <dark_knight_9 wrote:

> However, I am not sure about your conclusion that it is an

> unscrupulous deviation. Srila Prabhupada mentions something

> interesting here:

>

> "We have to accept everything favourable to the circumstances.

> Rejection of other methods in a particular circumstance does not mean

> that the rejected ones are not bona fide. But for the time being,

> taking into consideration the age, time, and object, methods are

> sometimes rejected even though bona fide. We have to test everything

> by its practical result. . ." - [srila Prabhupada, Sri Namamrta p.58-59]

 

This is another reason I saw fit to mention that so many

(perhaps most) of those who leave Srila Prabhupada or ISKCON, ostensibly

for such optimistic raganuga practice, actually decrease their standards.

Every such truth is contextual (Bhagavata 11.).

 

 

Regarding:

 

> Diksa" on his board. I also came across a discussion thread that may

> answer our questions about this topic in clarity and depth . . .

 

and

 

> However, I noted this

> in the Q&A section of the Raganuga site, under the heading "

 

It's easier to stick with one list and thread at a time, just as

it's easier if we stick to one bonafide guru.

 

 

 

 

> How do we reconcile these seemingly different statements from two

> shastras?

 

I don't have a copy of the RVC in front of me, so the context of

your quote isn't clear, but there doesn't seem to be a real dichotomy here

to me; "seemingly" may indeed be the key word. Still, the general

principle holds that siddha-pranali isn't something to be taken lightly;

neophytes have many more pressing needs to address, like guru-padasraya,

honesty, humility, discipline, etc.

 

However, if two acaryas definitely do differ, then why not just

accept the verdict of the acarya Krsna sent to you (Cc. Adilila, 1.45):

 

"According to the deliberate opinion of all revealed scriptures,

the spiritual master is nondifferent from Krsna. Lord Krsna in the form of

the spiritual master delivers His devotees."

 

PURPORT

"The relationship of a disciple with his spiritual master is as good

as his relationship with the Supreme Lord. A spiritual master always represents

himself as the humblest servitor of the Personality of Godhead, but the

disciple must look upon him as the manifested representation of Godhead."

 

I hope this helps to put things in perspective.

 

MDd