Did Adi Shankaracharya denounce Caste?

[narayanadasa]

 

But Brahmins to this day need to come up with an adequate enough answer as to why they are allowed to inflict harm on lower castes...

 

Jai Sriman Narayana:

Do you really have genuine examples of Brahmins inflicting harm or causing disturbance in society? As far as I see, Brahmin born Brahmins dont anymore behave as genuine Brahmins... I completely agree with this. But, I dont see the same Brahmins torturing / harming anyone else (especially Sudras). The press, the TV etc talk about upper castes harming lower castes... but not even in 1 case I have seen a Brahmin involved here. Please share genuine evidence/incident, I would really be interested to see this.

 

Incidents like not allowing Sudras to enter temples after eating meat, before bath etc cannot be taken as ill-treatments. Ofcourse it is the duty of the Brahmin priest to advice correctly and then help people change for good. Now a days priests seldom do that.. this is not correct. Also, even Brahmins eat meat, this is wrong and must be pointed out... these Brahmins must be called out-castes (not Sudras). For political reasons, some genuine incidents are being projected wrongly (upper caste by default points to Brahmins). Now, if you say Brahmins are 100% responsible then what are the Kshatriyas doing? Are they not supposed protect all and ensure right conduct from everyone (Brahmins, Sudras, Vaishyas and themselves). Are the Vaishyas doing their business in a honest manner and sharing the fruits with the society to spread vedic code of living? Why only Brahmins are blamed for everything?

 

Anyway, nobody knows the Dharma correctly let alone following it. We all need to work together to learn it well first.... not just the Brahmins.

[Guest guest]

"Incidents like not allowing Sudras to enter temples after eating meat, before bath etc cannot be taken as ill-treatments."

 

Narayanadasa, you are an idiot.

[Guest guest]

it only takes a few bad brahmins to give the whole brahmin community a bad name. That may be a shame, but that is why it is important, that the truly spiritual brahmins, condemn the actions of bigotry that any high castemen might display.

 

the entire world is populated with bigotry and discrimination and pride, and people thinking they are better than another group. This behavior must have no place with truly spiritual people. As the Lord tells us in the Gita, we must look as everyone as spirit-souls; without discrimination.

 

There are sudra saints, who will achieve Moksha in this lifetime. And brahmins still trapped deeply in Samsaric delusions.

[Guest guest]

only shallow people judge by outer appearances. Some of the most spiritual people in the world, may be despised among men because they hold a low caste, are poor, or ugly, you name it..

 

No one should ever be forbidden to enter a temple of God or the demigods. Everyone has a right to worship God/gods in his/her/their holy sancturies. Temples are there for seekers to connect with the spiritual world.

 

every catholic church is open 24 hours a day, for people to come in and pray; and their doors are open to all, no matter what religion, race, or sex they are - they are allowed to come in and pray. Hindu temples must be the same.

[Guest guest]

The sort of things quoted by Narayana dasa never happen. I have seen people entering temples clad in coloured lungis and even in inebriated conditions. The skeleton bodied priest who earns a Rs.125/- and odd bucks a month in the age of Minimum wages far from even advising them stand a mere witness. The priests in the temples are never viewed as persons rendering service to God but unwarranted employee of endowment boards. Further in cities everybody know the sort of things I have explained above but nobody knows the caste of persons doing these things. This is viewed as sort of unavoidable social nuisense.

That brahmins inflicting harm on lower castes is a figment of imagination. what is the proof. Hundreds of incidents of dalit oppression are reported in media. In almost every incident, a group of people belonging to intermediary castes who have no respect for varna or Dharma (m referring the group of people indulging in such activities and not entire caste as such) are responsible for this. where do brahmins fit in this scheme of things. It is just because of sheer hatred and bias one says that brahmins are inflicting harm on lower castes. This is unadulterated lie.

Knowledge is the property of a person who owns it. There can not be any compulsion on him to divulge it. This is internationally accepted law. As such, if brahmins for ages learnt vedas and mastered the same, why should they divulge it. The funny part is , it is also written by many that vedas are available in CD. Yes I agree. Then why expect brahmins to divulge their knowledge of vedas. Get ur piece of peas from CD. This is the age where everything is available everywhere. U have Ramakrishna mission, chinmaya mission, Aryasamaj and scores of organisation which are ready to teach vedas to any and everybody. Then what is the fuss about brahmins not divulging the knowledge of vedas. The fact is those who are raising this issue have no business to know or learn vedas. Their main business is brahmin bashing. Cause if at all they are interested in learning vedas, so far they could have learnt it easily and even have quoted from it. People belonging to ISKCON, Ramakrishna mission, Chinmaya mission and Aryasamaj --to quote a few organisations --have equally mastered the scriptures to discuss it with anybody.

But one should understand the realiy. The birth based caste system with thousands of castes - different from birth based varnashrama dhama system is there to stay. And the people belonging to intermediary castes would rule the roast while oppressing the lower castes and passing on the buc to brahmins. And brahmins - a sizeable number of them - even today - silently -unaffected by the politics happening around them would continue to engage in their ritual and spiritual activities.

[Guest guest]

 

Knowledge is the property of a person who owns it.

 

never be puffed up by knowledge.

 

if you have spiritual knowledge that can help someone, and a sincere seeker comes to you asking questions and looking for guidance, you certainly should share it and have compassion on them. A spiritual leader is there to help seekers lost in darkness.

 

It is a dark world, and many people are looking for spiritual answers. Not just in India, but all over. India is just one country, in a big world. We must see the whole wide world, and so many that could use the great teachings of Sanatan Dharma to guide them..

 

So many in the west, turn to India, looking for enlightened masters and gurus for spiritual guidance. Imagine if such a sincere seeker were turned away because of his race or caste. Thankfully there are plenty of compassionate Hindu gurus, like Mother Amma, who care about helping seekers of all races and castes advance spiritually. She is a true saint, giving her whole life to help others. Every Hindu leader should immolate her.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

The sort of things quoted by Narayana dasa never happen.

 

I guess you missed the news report last month of an untouchable that was killed by a mob for entering a village temple. You live in a fantasy world where no one is discriminated based on caste, but India isn't that fantasy world.

[Guest guest]

Narayanadasa and me did not say that oprression did not take place against low castes. I only said that brahmins are no party to illtreatment meeted out to the so called low castes today.

Spiritual knowledge is contained in every scripture of Sanathana Dharma and vedas are just one among them. Kabir, kamal, rahim, raskan and latif did not realise god by reciting vedas. It is the most foolish thing to even imagine that god can be realised by simply reciting vedas.

even if brahmins do not divulge their knowledge of vedas it is not as if the knowledge of vedas are not available. then why should there be a fuss over the facts. there are hundreds of organisation which are ready to teach.

A person coming from foreign country to India never ends up seeking knowledge of vedas in tiny unknown villages of India where veda learning and teaching brahmins live. They go to established institutions like Aryasamaj, ISKCON and Ramakrishna mission etc.,

In varnashrama dharma as such, learning of vedas were prescribed for those who were born as brahmins, kshathriyas and vaishyas. For quite a long time atleast kshathriyas are totally cut off from learning vedas. and number of vaishyas learning vedas is miniscule today. this is not the mistake of brahmins.this is the mistake of those who forego their ordained duties.

[narayanadasa]

Jai Sriman Narayana:

 

May be I did not convey what I wanted to correctly! Anyway, here I go...

 

only shallow people judge by outer appearances. Some of the most spiritual people in the world, may be despised among men because they hold a low caste, are poor, or ugly, you name it..

Correct, a person's mind cannot be judged by just his outer appearance. But, basic cleanliness/discipline is necessary, whatsoever. In my opinion people who dont have this are Sudras (not by birth, but by behaviour, some may be upper castes too). The point is such people need advise, guidance etc. The upper castes as they claim to be must work towards equality by setting proper examples, guiding such people... not simply ignore the problem and accept anything as normal in the name of eqality. What I see happening is when an unclean person enters a temple, nobody tries to advice him, instead everyone tries to move away. The person indeed feels very bad. He doesnt realize people are moving away due to he being unclean and not due to any dislike towards him.

 

No one should ever be forbidden to enter a temple of God or the demigods. Everyone has a right to worship God/gods in his/her/their holy sancturies. Temples are there for seekers to connect with the spiritual world.

Yes, true. But, that doesnt mean cleanliness, discipline can be compromised. People (all irrespective of caste) need to adhere to this. Just because a Sudra doesnt know the reason for why he is not supposed to wear a slipper inside the temple sanctum or why he should not come drunk or why he should not touch the bell with dirty hands, doesnt mean that he should be simply allowed inside in the name of "equality". Instead, he should be educated properly. The best people to do this is the priest himself as almost all have some basic respect for him. If anyone else from the higher caste tries to, it will be called ill-treatment...this is happening today! Ofcourse, there are a few genuine cases and upper castes (especially Brahmins) are seldom involved in this - may be they remain mute spectators mostly for fear of any violent outcomes. The lower-castes themselves have so many classes within and they keep ill-treating each other in most cases.

 

Now, a true upper caste (not necessarily Brahmins) is one who has basic understanding (not necessarily the vedas or the Gita), cleanliness, etc. The intention is to ensure that the temple is usable for all. If its dirty, then all cant use it. If its clean, then everyone can.

 

I know there are tons of examples where low-class people later on became saints. Some Azhwars of Tamilnadu are genuine examples. But, we cant think all low-class people may become saints (I will be most happy if they do!) and allow everyone to do everything in any way they want. Some level of basic understanding is necessary. This is what we need to cultivate.

 

</B>every catholic church is open 24 hours a day, for people to come in and pray; and their doors are open to all, no matter what religion, race, or sex they are - they are allowed to come in and pray. Hindu temples must be the same.</B>

Sorry, even Christian churches have separate doors for low class converts to use. This I have seen in India. But, I have seen a lot of discrimination in foreign countries too (Europe and US especially). I would'nt use the church as an example here. Hinduism had better ways, which is anyway corrupt now. The corruption is what needs to remove. This is by educating irrespective of caste (whether by birth or behaviour). Temple can be a place to do this. I can say a 100 things about what happens in churches, but since it doesnt help the discussion I wish to be mute on this.

[Guest guest]

 

Yes, true. But, that doesnt mean cleanliness, discipline can be compromised. People (all irrespective of caste) need to adhere to this. Just because a Sudra doesnt know the reason for why he is not supposed to wear a slipper inside the temple sanctum or why he should not come drunk or why he should not touch the bell with dirty hands, doesnt mean that he should be simply allowed inside in the name of "equality". Instead, he should be educated properly. The best people to do this is the priest himself as almost all have some basic respect for him. If anyone else from the higher caste tries to it will be called ill-treatment...this is happening today! Ofcourse, there are genuine cases which are pretty less and upper castes are seldom involved in this. The lower-castes themselves have so many classes within and they keep ill-treating each other in most cases.

 

I understand there has be some standards. If people are visibly drunk, that is a different story; and I agree you can't have people severely intoxicated walking in. However, just because someone is poor and dirty, I do not believe they should be denied access.

 

and no one should be denied entrance on the mere basis of caste or lack thereof (dalits); or because of their race (like a westerner visiting a temple).

 

The news story that jndas mentioned is truly sickening and evil. What kind of so called spiritual people would beat some poor seeker to death for trying to enter a temple? and in the name of holiness and following tradition? what kind of religion could condone such evil and debauchery?

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

at least Jesus Christ never taught caste discrimination. He said to love your neighbor as yourself, and do unto others as you would have them do unto you. This is something every Hindu must do as well. Certainly the great Hindu saints and Mahatmas have taught this as well.

 

and Christ was said to have publically hung out with the societal rejects. The prostitutes, drunkards, and tax collectors. He did this to bring them spiritual teachings. He said it is the sick who have need of a physician.

 

Hindu saints like Mother Amma have also embraced all. She has had prostitutes, etc. come to her for a hug. And she has not turned them away. She has shown them love. Love that changes hearts. This is what a truly spiritual person does with their powerful spiritual vibration; they change sinners into saints. Many saints of India have embraced the rejects. They did not discrimate and cast hurting, lost souls aside. They showed them love and compassion. And with their spiritual light, they were able to pierce into the darkness of their hearts and guide them to the Kingdom of God.

[Guest guest]

 

Mata Amritanandamayi, or Amma as she is affectionately known in India and around the world, is an inspirational example of living a life of selfless service to others. She is dedicated to uplifting those in need with shelter, medical relief, educational assistance, vocational training, as well as financial and material support.

Her ever-increasing list of charitable projects has been recognized worldwide and illustrates her dedication to the service of humanity as well as her miraculous ability to transform her compassionate vision into practical reality. It was Amma's aspiration to create a hospital in Kerala where the poor could receive the very best medical care possible from highly skilled physicians and nurses in an atmosphere of love and compassion.

 

In the past 30 years, Amma has physically embraced and blessed more than 24 million people. Amma's compassion crosses all barriers of nationality, race, caste and religion. She has initiated and inspired a vast network of charitable activities, which is drawing attention throughout the world. At the root of these services lies Amma's teaching that the divine exists in everything, in every person, plant and animal.

from aimshospital.org/mission/missioninsp.html

[Guest guest]

 

The Hindu spiritual leader Mata Amritanandamayi, lovingly called 'Amma', and known globally as India's "hugging saint mother ", Ms “Amritanandamayi”, which literally means "Mother of Absolute Bliss", was born to a low caste Hindu family in a poor fishing village in Parayakadavu, Kollam, in the southern Indian coastal state of Kerala.

from hinduism.about.com/cs/gurussaints/a/aa092803a.htm

[Guest guest]

comon, classism and racism is perfectly practiced by whites in european countries. Yes nigros are allowed inside churches. But even today there are abuses against niggers which are more cruel than those meeted out to dalits in India. When Mahatma Gandhi said go to villages, Ambedkar said go to cities. Why? In city the caste of a person gets submerged in the crowds. Whether it is hotel, theatre, temple - anywhere. nobody is bothered about anybody's caste.

Yes, when there is no system as such, why debar dalits or even europeans from entering the temples as long as one enters the temple in proper decorum. In kerala, a man is never allowed entry in temples unless he comes there in white dhoti or white lungi and is asked to remove shrts as a mark of respect. What is the objection. If u have to go to gurdwara u have to cover ur head. if u visit a dargah u have to cover ur head. Why should not anyone observe basic rules while entering temple.

Cruelty meted out to dalits still happen which is a sorry fact and these things happen not in cities and only in villages. These things are committed by intermediate castes and not brahmins. By unnecessarily accusing brahmins for these kind of things one is committing two blunders. By dragging a community of people who even remotely is not connected to the cruel activity. And letting out the persons freely who have committed the cruelty. But when simply brahmin bashing is the order of the day, these things would fall in deaf ears.

[narayanadasa]

He (Jesus) said to love your neighbor as yourself, and do unto others as you would have them do unto you. This is something every Hindu must do as well. Certainly the great Hindu saints and Mahatmas have taught this as well.

So, a Sudra doesnt mind touching another sudra with the same hands he just ate meat (before washing). However, a Brahmin would never do that and certainly doesnt expect a Sudra or even another Brahmin to do that to him. The sudra doesnt know this and he thinks he can do with the logic that all are same in the eyes of God (and many such pale slogans), so all is ok. The point is in the eyes of God all are indeed same doesnt mean that we pick the dirtiest of behaviour and equate that the best with the assumption that the soul is unaffected and so everyone can do everything.. like christianity where all can drink, all can smoke, all can then go back to the church 24 hours a day and ask for forgiveness to start the same thing all over again.

 

So, this slogan doesnt apply to all situations. In fact, such slogans have been left-over by Britishers and cannot apply to most cases for various political reasons. We have much better ones than that and which go the depth of human spirituality (not just bodily motivated), lets give more importance to those.

 

Brahmins usually try to keep as much away / remain mute as much as possible from such Sudras (generally all Sudras!!!). But there are other people (especially a little higher Sudras) who beat them up. Now, why blame Brahmins for this? What else do you expect them to do? Correct behaviour doesnt require one to know vedas! How do you educate the Sudra? If I give him money and try to teach he will just drink again. If I try to explain something to him he wont understand it when he is drunk. If I try to catch him at a different time he is asleep (due to being drunk at night) or he is busy beating his wife/children. Now, the next morning he comes to temple in the same state. What should be done? Just allow him to do whatever he wants. This is the problem. This behaviour is only an example. There are 100's such patterns of behaviour.

 

Now, Sudras in India want all sorts of reservations.. they dont want to call themselves upper castes but give a different reason called casteism, illtreatment etc (thanks to politicians!). Again, what do you want Brahmins to do here? The genuine few are ready to teach for a meagre sum of money. Would Vaishyas provide them with the necessary resources? Would Kshatriyas work towards ensuring discipline? Or should the Brahmins do everything in the present world?

 

Just blaming the brahmins doesnt help! All are responsible for this.

 

The Kshatriyas could not protect the country from invasions. The Vaishyas did not do their businesses honestly, they kept all their money for someone to steal later. The Sudras with no other option ended up becaming slaves/bonded labourers (not to Brahmins) and now after getting sufficiently suppressed and brainwashed by their landlords, the Muslims and the Britishers are only waiting to grab political posts. Now, why Brahmins alone are responsible?

[Guest guest]

 

comon, classism and racism is perfectly practiced by whites in european countries.

 

there is racism and snobbery among the rich and elite all over. It's just not usually done behind so-called religious injunctions.

 

 

Yes nigros are allowed inside churches. But even today there are abuses against niggers which are more cruel than those meeted out to dalits in India.

 

all such behaviour is sinful. Hatred, racism, and bigotry are not spiritual virtues. They are wretched conditions.

 

 

Yes, when there is no system as such, why debar dalits or even europeans from entering the temples as long as one enters the temple in proper decorum.

 

there are many europeans and american caucasians who have converted to Hindu traditions (Saiva Siddhanta, Kashmir Saivism, Vaishnavism, Shaktism) and worship Shiva; Vishnu; Krishna; Devi.. they have every right to enter their temples as any Indian. The gods have no race.. and their devotees are made up of all races.

 

 

Brahmins usually try to keep as much away / remain mute as much as possible from such Sudras (generally all Sudras!!!).

 

instead of bashing sudras, and worrying about who eats with who, one should practice equality, and cleanse the pride and self righteousness from their heart. We are all children of God. No doubt many sudras have turned to the low life because of low self-esteem that has been built into them. It's a perpetual cycle, that develops when people's self worth is degraded. We have seen the same thing with ghettos and minorities in America. But don't think for one second that a person's caste, race or sex at birth will determine their worth or what they can become in this world, if they learn to rise above the BS. Many have come from disadvantaged situations and risen above them to be great souls in this world.

 

would any brahmin refuse to eat at the low caste table of Amma?

[vrajavasi]

Radhe Krishna,

 

Narayanadasaji, Radhe krishna

although I completely gone through this thread, too much acrimony is being exchanged. U would appreciate one thing. From the foregoing discussions, u would find there is nothing stopping a non brahmin to learn vedas if he wishes so to learn. And a brahmin, irrespective of the sampradaya he belongs would hesitate to teach it to persons other than brahmins because of lack of lineage. Then why endless debate. Please visit other threads where we can peacefully exchange krishna bhakthi.

 

Radhe krishna

[Guest guest]

People irrespective of race, creed, colour and caste are allowed entry in all the temples today. Exceptions are

a) In puri those who are not born as hindus are not allowed entry in the temple

B)In Guruvayur krishna temple in Kerala, non hindus are not allowed entry.

C) In the temples of Kshudra devathas which are controlled by caste Hindus in villages entry in many cases are not allowed to harijans.

In puri necessary action should be taken by Gaudiya sampradaya vaishnavas to change the practice. There is nothing wrong in the practice followed in Guruvayur. Nonhindus have no business in a Hindu temple unless and until they adopt basic Hindu way of living. The society altogether should take necessary efforts to allow for darshan of harijans in Kshudra devatha temples. This is really a sorry state of thing in 22nd century.

 

It was before one or one and half centuries that people used to live in their basties. Brahmins lived in Agraharam. Kshathriyas, vaishyas , chathurthas, panchamaas and people belonging to other religions lived in separate basthies. In the current age people are living together and people are used to living together.

Rhetorics like whether a brahmin would eat in the same plate with maata amrutaanandamayi has no meaning. This type of argument does not push brahmins to a tight corner but degrade the status of Maata. There is no way one can compare the status of attained souls like Maata Amrutanandamayi and a brahmin who is engaged in rituals or upaasana. It is like how one views the personalities. Even in varnashrama dharma, liberated souls are referred as "Athi varnashrami" - meaning although attached to the system - they are beyond the system. Jata Bharatha, Shukacharya, Sadasiva brahmendral all were perceived by brahmins as liberated souls. They were perceived as "Athi varnashramis". One who has even once seen or heard of pujya maata would understand that she is a liberated soul. A brahmin who views her as such would never hesitate to share meal with her but consider it as a boon. But if a brahmin could not realise her status he would not. Where is the problem. If and if only a brahmin intentionally enter the ashram of pujya maata and thereafter in front of many people intentionally refuse to share the meal that would be against even saamanya dharma of scriptures. But this sort of thing can never happen. And if it happens the person has surely offended Saamanya Dharma - the basic human etiquettes expected of a person by shasthras - he would be punished by God. But how can u find fault with a brahmin who is indifferent to maata.

Whom to meet where to eat what to eat are personal preferences of individuals which can never be pressurised by any body.

[Guest guest]

 

He (Jesus) said to love your neighbor as yourself, and do unto others as you would have them do unto you. This is something every Hindu must do as well. Certainly the great Hindu saints and Mahatmas have taught this as well.

True, but let's look at an ex-Hindu who's a little closer to home to us than Jesus. Look at the life of Buddha, who kept many Hindu teachings but rejected caste. Many of his followers were shudras who raised their spiritual level by his teachings. They did this because they were accepted and taught equally and most importantly, given the opportunity to develop themselves. What is the big deal about restricting spiritual teachings of the Vedas to shudras?

The point is in the eyes of God all are indeed same doesnt mean that we pick the dirtiest of behaviour and equate that the best with the assumption that the soul is unaffected and so everyone can do everything..

Exactly, but why not help those lesser than you so you wouldn't have to worry about bumping into shudras. Envision a time when the shudras are not so backwards and not so dirty, if other religions can do it for shudras, why not Hindus? When you talk of picking up the dirtiest behaviour, think about the Aghori Sadhus and what they get up to!

like christianity where all can drink, all can smoke, all can then go back to the church 24 hours a day and ask for forgiveness to start the same thing all over again.

Well some Saivites believe in drinking and smoking ganja. Alot of modern Hindu yourhs do the same thing, by believing that they can simply ask forgiveness from God everytime they pray and forgetting that we believe in the law of karma.

Brahmins usually try to keep as much away / remain mute as much as possible from such Sudras (generally all Sudras!!!). But there are other people (especially a little higher Sudras) who beat them up. Now, why blame Brahmins for this? What else do you expect them to do?

Yes, you're right many castes discriminates against the Shudras and untouchables. But just because other castes beat the shudras, it doesn't answer the problem. Brahmins are the top of the caste systems, they are supposedly the leaders of society, the great thinkers, etc. They have a powerful influence in rural life of India and if they want to win the trust of all people they should speak out when atrocities in the name of caste happen, but they don't, they remain mute. And when you have verses in the manu smriti about beating women, illiterates and shudras as well as pouring molten lead into the ears of a shudra because he heard vedic mantras, that the supposedly great Adi Shankara had quoted, we have a problem. Let's remember this thread is about Adi Shankara and caste and I still find it quite shocking that Shankara could quote a verse like that, especially after the period of Buddhist domination when shudras were treated better. It's like taking a few steps back rather than forwards.

Correct behaviour doesnt require one to know vedas! How do you educate the Sudra? If I give him money and try to teach he will just drink again. If I try to explain something to him he wont understand it when he is drunk. If I try to catch him at a different time he is asleep (due to being drunk at night) or he is busy beating his wife/children.

Well let's take a look at the shudra's who have converted to other religions. They seem to be doing OK. They seem to have educated the shudras at least. Even Marxists organisations seem to help shudras better themselves. Their community seems to have raised their level and condition. The problem is that the Hindu community does very little for them, making up excuses like "how do you educate the shudra?". Generally speaking, the Hindu community is all talk and little action. Vivekananda himself criticised the Hindu community for this. It's the higher castes keeping the lower castes low that is the problem. The low castes convert because they are accepted by other religions and given some respect, but generally the Hindu community keeps their distance. Yet the Hindu community complains when they convert and launch their re-conversion programmes.

If a Shudra converts, he can make it in India. The Hindu Shudra's are still backwards. Why is that? This is what I mean when I say some Brahmins are short-sighted. I do not hate Brahmins and I do respect the true brahmins who live the life, but I'm just trying to open some eyes here. Again I will ask, If other religions can raise the level of shudras, why can't the Hindus?

And I am aware of a few Brahmins and their movements who did what they could to help the shudras such as Ramanuja, Chaitanya, Ramakrishna, Dayananda, etc. But this needs to be done on a bigger scale by all Brahmins if not most.

Now, Sudras in India want all sorts of reservations.. they dont want to call themselves upper castes but give a different reason called casteism, illtreatment etc (thanks to politicians!). Again, what do you want Brahmins to do here? The genuine few are ready to teach for a meagre sum of money. Would Vaishyas provide them with the necessary resources? Would Kshatriyas work towards ensuring discipline? Or should the Brahmins do everything in the present world?

Yes, all the castes need to work together. But Brahmins, being "the brain" and the top of the caste system, should correct others when treating lower castes bad. Those who are interested in Hinduism shouldn't treat low castes badly.

The politicians have taken up the low-caste and dalit issue because in wins power for them. But the reason for this is also because the shudras and dalits have been mistreated historically and now they want to develop themselves as India modernises. Now on if this injustice didn't exist, it wouldn't be a problem. They don't want to call themselves upper-castes because they want to prove to the others that they can make it with their caste-name. I think they want to prove that coming from a history of nothing but shudras in their family, they can achieve if given the opportunity. Of course alot of them have adopted the Aryan invasion theory, not because it's true but because it works in their favour.

Just blaming the brahmins doesnt help! All are responsible for this.

The Kshatriyas could not protect the country from invasions. The Vaishyas did not do their businesses honestly, they kept all their money for someone to steal later. The Sudras with no other option ended up becaming slaves/bonded labourers (not to Brahmins) and now after getting sufficiently suppressed and brainwashed by their landlords, the Muslims and the Britishers are only waiting to grab political posts. Now, why Brahmins alone are responsible?

I agree. Brahmins are not responsible for everything, all castes are. This is a problem with the Hindu community as a whole. But you have the impression that we are blaming the Brahmins for everything, we are not. This thread is about if Adi Shankara denounced caste or not. It has disintegrated into this Brahmin argument of caste by birth or actions? Over the course of this thread we have found that Adi Shankara may have been a casteist. But it doesn't match the events in his life like bowing to an untouchable and seeking his blessings at varansi and breaking certain brahminical rules like conducting his mothers funeral as an ascetic. Now if he could do this, then how could the same man hold views like pouring molten lead into the ears of a shudra if he hears the Vedas? And the question to all Brahmins is why hold such views at all?

[Guest guest]

 

Generally speaking, the Hindu community is all talk and little action. Vivekananda himself criticised the Hindu community for this. It's the higher castes keeping the lower castes low that is the problem. The low castes convert because they are accepted by other religions and given some respect, but generally the Hindu community keeps their distance. Yet the Hindu community complains when they convert and launch their re-conversion programmes.

 

It's like a wifebeating husband complaining when his wife leaves him for another man.

 

The caste bigots are so blind and shortsighted, they can't see they are their own worst enemy.

 

Those who promote caste discrimination are the reason so many sudras/dalits leave Hinduism for other religions that show them love and respect.

 

Those who promote caste discrimination are also the reason many outsiders look at Hinduism as a backward, and uncompassionate religion. And yet, the greatest Hindu saints have spoken out loudly against bigotry and caste discrimination. And that the true and original purpose of caste has been corrupted. Still their holy words fall on deaf ears in many villages.

 

We have Christians come to India like Mother Theresa and show compassion and love to all, regardless of their religion. And yet many of their Hindu brothers, those of their same village, show them no real love or compassion?

[Guest guest]

Holding a view that too as per scriptures that varnashrama dharma is by birth is not caste bidgotry. Under varnashrama dharma there are only four varnas. those who break the laws and who enter the system were referred as panchamaas. Bigotry - cruelty - these are casteist mentality and not varnashrama dharma mentality. Pouring melting iron et al. mentioned in smruthis - there were never any proof of these things ever happened. People who believe in birth based varna system are more human than casteists and neo religious cults. People who believe in birth based varna system perfectly merge in the society while also maintaining their scriptural adherence. Varna by birth system is not at all a system to degrade anybody. It does not put forth any obstacles on the path of god realisation to anybody. Throughout thread people indulged in brahmin bashing and were playing with the term "Shudra". "Shudra" is not such a menial word to play with. They are very much in the varna system having perfectly defined roles. Even panchamaas - those who broke the laws of the system and latter entrants to the system were treated with sincerety with respect to God realisation. In the age old system of Varna by birth only vedas were not taught to chathurthas and panchamaas. All other ocean of knowledge in Sanathana dharma - from upanishad, puranaa, vyakarana, jythisha, nyaya and u name any shasthra it was open to society at large. People cutting across varnas mastered in these shasthras and even participated in debates. Even today in Kerala - there are paaramparic shaasthra vitpannas in Kerala and other parts of south India who belong to "chathurtha varna"

The topic then comes to learning of vedas by Chthurthas and panchamaas - it has been repeated adnauseum - that these could be learnt in the current world from a number of organisations ranging from Arya Samaj, RamaKrishna mission, Chaitanya mission, ISKCON et al. Far from objection there is not even murmur from brahmins in this regard. Why should they? They only hold that we would not teach these things breaking the system. If anybody learns vedas from an organisation which teaches them brahmins have no locus standi in that.

Then where is the fuss.

Brahmins are where they are. Other than vedas they are ready and they were and they would be guiding people cutting across people from any caste creed and even religion.

People belonging to "Chathurtha varna" or who do not believe in varna by birth system and are interested in study of vedas can easily learn them from many organisations. Learning of vedas in a structured manner is such a long and time consuming thing - that people who are really engaged in it - of whatever category - they would be interested in study and further teaching of vedas.

It is only casteists and people who think they have attained super status by embracing neo religious cults - who do no engage in study of anything - be it vedas- be it puraanas - be it any shaasthras - they engage in brahmin bashing while brahmins still are sharig their spiritual knowledge with anybody on everything other than vedas. ( In this case there are many brahmins who were born as such but do not believe in varna by birth system are also contributing).

In all the melee the real culprits who are the cause of harm inflicted to so called low caste people go scot free. By each and every incident, since they are unquestioned they gain strength by leaps and bounds. Brahmin bashing is mainly from this group of people as a distraction technique. They would be carrying on their cruel activities while passing on the buck to brahmins.

wow! hail love and affection of people of neo religious cults and hail their masks.

[Guest guest]

Adishankara and caste. How funny. The traditional vaidic schools be it of Shankaracharya or ramanujacharya or madwacharya they all strongly believe in varna system by birth. Varnashrama dharma and caste system are totally different things. In varna system you have only 4 varnas. How many thousands of castes are there today. At the time of Shankaracharya - the system in vogue was varna system and not the current day corupt caste system. Where in shankara bhashya - anybody would find reference to caste. caste is sick. casteists are the main reason for all melee the society is facing today.

[narayanadasa]

 

Radhe Krishna,

 

Narayanadasaji, Radhe krishna

although I completely gone through this thread, too much acrimony is being exchanged. U would appreciate one thing. From the foregoing discussions, u would find there is nothing stopping a non brahmin to learn vedas if he wishes so to learn. And a brahmin, irrespective of the sampradaya he belongs would hesitate to teach it to persons other than brahmins because of lack of lineage. Then why endless debate. Please visit other threads where we can peacefully exchange krishna bhakthi.

 

Radhe krishna

 

Jai Sriman Narayana:

Thanks for being so kind to let me know that I was going too far (and also talking what was not necessary)... indeed I realized but was too late, anyway. Thanks Again!

[vrajavasi]

Radhe Krishna,

 

Narayanadasaji, Radhe Krishna, please visit the thread on shrimad bhagavatham. I hope you are from shrivaishnava sampradaya. I know from the point of view of bhakthi, this is a rasika sampradaya. You can contribute as to how your acharyas gave vivarana to krishna bhakthi and rama bhakthi.

 

Radhe krishna

[Guest guest]

 

Pouring melting iron et al. mentioned in smruthis - there were never any proof of these things ever happened.

 

 

How do you know? These things most likely would've happened in rural societies, where they are not going to keep a record of it. And if it never happened, why was it written at all? What was the point of the manu smriti if it wasn't a law book in a certain period. I'm not saying that manu smiriti was as important as the Vedas, I'm saying that manu smirti was followed for a period of time in some parts of India. But it is disgraceful that verses like that were written and not challened at the time and that shankara promoted them. And some parts of the manu smirti are still followed in some parts of India today.

 

 

"Shudra" is not such a menial word to play with. They are very much in the varna system having perfectly defined roles.

 

 

But what seperates them from the twice-born? Why are they outside the twice-born? Why were some they not allowed to enter temples? If a Shudra is highly educated in this day and age, does he still have to do menial jobs as per the varna system?

 

When Shankara says that Brahm gyan is greater than the Vedas, is he referring to the knowledge contained in the Upanishads? He says may everyone in the world achieve Brahm gyan...that includes the shudra's too. So I take it it's not the Vedas.

 

 

The topic then comes to learning of vedas by Chthurthas and panchamaas - it has been repeated adnauseum - that these could be learnt in the current world from a number of organisations ranging from Arya Samaj, RamaKrishna mission, Chaitanya mission, ISKCON et al. Far from objection there is not even murmur from brahmins in this regard. Why should they? They only hold that we would not teach these things breaking the system. If anybody learns vedas from an organisation which teaches them brahmins have no locus standi in that.

 

 

But Brahmins don't really have the power to stop it, even if they did object. I think that Brahmins have realised that they cannot restrict this knowledge from reaching the rest of the world. They probably also realised that if the rest of the world knows about it, Hinduism would be respected and understood more. As such, Hinduism is no longer an India-only religion.

 

 

People belonging to "Chathurtha varna" or who do not believe in varna by birth system and are interested in study of vedas can easily learn them from many organisations. Learning of vedas in a structured manner is such a long and time consuming thing - that people who are really engaged in it - of whatever category - they would be interested in study and further teaching of vedas.

 

 

Alot of these organisations have Brahmins themselves teaching other castes. And it doesn't worry other Brahmins that the knowledge that was only known by them for so long is being taught to all?

 

 

It is only casteists and people who think they have attained super status by embracing neo religious cults

 

 

What do you mean by neo-religious cults? Can you give some examples/names of some? And why are they regarded as neo-religious as opposed to religious?