Did Adi Shankaracharya denounce Caste?

[Guest guest]

 

As such, Hinduism is no longer an India-only religion.

 

although the name Hindu is associated with India, eastern knowledge from India has been spreading far and wide for centuries. The Greek Mystics, for example, studied eastern religion. And considered the yogis of the east, 'naked philosophers': a term of endearment.

 

Also, if you study the origin of the name of many European gods, you will see how they are the same Hindu gods. I believe in the yugas, the vedic religion was the only religion. Therefore, we can find remnants of this period buried in history and scattered throughout various cultures.

[Guest guest]

you have not shown any proof of melting iron poured. These are blowing things out of proportion. Then you are completely ignorant of the varna system. As per the system, every varna was allowed in the temple upto a stage. shudras were very well allowed inside the temple. you dont have a temple in north India as per aagama shasthras since almost every other temple is grazed to the ground during moghul invasion there. A classical temple consists of saptha praakara and people belonging to every varna including shudra were allowed inside the temple but each at a stage like place like ardha mandapa, maha mandapa etc., these things I know you can not even comprehend. Then I very clearly told that brahmins have no locus standi in people out side varna by birth system learning vedas. This is not because of helplessness. This is out of what is explained in puranaas and shaasthras. It has been explained them when things go wayward. Vihitha karma thyaga and nishiddha karma acharana are the order of the day. A brahmin who believes in scriptures would never be shocked from these developments. But would simply watch them as they are enacted by god. People born as brahmins leaving their dharma and people born in other varnas leaving their dharma and plucking the dharma of others is what is explained in puraanas as what would happen in kaliyuga. Whatever you were arguing like equality, social justice, women empowerment - all these things hold value in socio political life. Not in Religion. Religion starts with inequality. A guru and Sishya can never be equal. The etiquettes require and the samskaraa a sishya gets from a guru - even at a latter stage he becomes more knowledgeable than guru - he still pays obeisance to his guru. A person performing ritual - engaged in bakhti - engaged in atma vichara - although different activities also shows perfect inequality and stages one is engaged in god realisation.

[Guest guest]

 

you have not shown any proof of melting iron poured. These are blowing things out of proportion.

 

What proof is there to show, as this is likely to happen in rural areas where they are not going to write a record saying what they did to a shudra. How do we know what happened in Indian villages hundereds of years ago? I have simply said it is disgraceful that such a thing was ever written, in the name of religion. And if you believe it was written but never happened, then what was the point of manu writing his law book? Was he just having fun, exercising his hand? He simply wrote the book so that his laws would be followed by the orthodox members of society at that time.

 

And I ask again, why did Adi Shankara, being enlightened, quote something as barbaric as that, when the same Adi Shankara bowed to an untouchable, when he was impressed by his knowledge? Bowing to an untouchable and touching his feet doesn't really fit the traditional image of an orthodox Brahmin, does it?

 

 

Also, if you study the origin of the name of many European gods, you will see how they are the same Hindu gods. I believe in the yugas, the vedic religion was the only religion. Therefore, we can find remnants of this period buried in history and scattered throughout various cultures.

 

 

Yes, like Mitra is Mithras and Dyaus Pita is Jupiter. Mithras was the Roman version of Mitra and helped shape many beliefs in early Christianity.

As for ancient civilisations around the world an example are the Mitanni civilisation in Northern Syria at 1500 BC. They followed the original Vedic religion and were known to conduct a vedic ritual when creating a peace treaty with the Hittites around 1400 BC.

[Guest guest]

Adi Shankaracharya's statements against shudras remind of the famous German Christian Reformer Martin Luther's statements against Jews. Although Luther's Protestant movement made many reforms in crippling the Roman Catholic Church Empire that ruled over Western Europe, he himself was not as enlightened or godly as Protestants may have been led to believe. He made many grossly anti-semitic statements and diatribes against the Jewish race, saying they were basically animals in human bodies. Statements that Hitler himself would later quote and use to justify the holocaust.

 

While Luther is celebrated in the Protestant tradition, like Shankaracharaya is in Hinduism, as a man of courage in standing up for what he understood to be Truth and the need for reformation, he himself did not always display the character that can be expected of a great spiritual leader.

 

Sometimes we put people up on such a high-pedestal because of their radical acts in history, we forget they too were not unaffected by the times that shaped them. And they may not have always been speaking and thinking with an enlightened mind. Although, I am aware Luther was in no way enlightened, as Protestantism is a very exoteric religion; he like Shankaracharya (if he indeed held bigotry in his heart) is a paradox in double speak and proper spiritual standards and charity.

[Yegan]

 

only shallow people judge by outer appearances. Some of the most spiritual people in the world, may be despised among men because they hold a low caste, are poor, or ugly, you name it..

 

No one should ever be forbidden to enter a temple of God or the demigods. Everyone has a right to worship God/gods in his/her/their holy sancturies. Temples are there for seekers to connect with the spiritual world.

 

every catholic church is open 24 hours a day, for people to come in and pray; and their doors are open to all, no matter what religion, race, or sex they are - they are allowed to come in and pray. Hindu temples must be the same.

Everyone (independant on sex, race) should be allowed to worship the lord, agree ,but there are some rules and regulations that should be observed as stated in the scriptures.

If say in the scriptures it is mentioned that someone should not come inside the temples because that person has eaten meat, then there is a reason for that( which we may not comprehend). Same thing applies to temples' timetables.

At times its happens that we cannot adopt an idea just because it makes sense to our mind( i.e make our temple's timetable like churches' timetable).Rules and regulations are there to properly worship the Lord, and these laws have been set by enlighted beings like vedas ved.

Brahmins are here to ensure that people worship the lord in the proper way and help in the spiritual ceremonies. Thats the functions of brahmins as per scriptures. As to whether they should pour liquid metals in non brahmins' ear, that I havent seen in scriptures, hence should be condemnable.

(Is Manu smirti considered as authorised scriptures?)

I personally believe in caste by actions. I dont know what scriptures said on such topic though. However in Mahabharat when knowledgeable being such as Drona refuses to train Karna because of caste, then confusion sets in my mind as far as caste by actions is concerned.

[Guest guest]

lol. No proof. but would not hesitate to make allegation. Allegation without basis is bias. Bias raises from ego and this has no remedy. Shankaracharya has nowhere quoted in his commentary pouring of metling iron. This is more than figment of imagination of your biased friends. What shankaracharya quoted was varnas system by birth.

pouring of melting iron statement is ascribed to manusmrithi which is written by manu who was a kshathriya. then why put pointing fingers at brahmins. again bias. if this is not bigotry what else is.

what sort of answers you have got against people who really perpetrate cruelty - physical cruelty against oppressed classes today - which has proof that is day in and day out reported in media. It seems you want to simply bury this issue under the carpet and beating around the bush. Burying the real issue with solid proof and blowing out of proportion an issue which has no proof and dragging people who are no party to it - i am sorry. this is sort of politics. This is not a religious issue but simple political rhetoric. you can better raise it in elections to garner votes. based on bias and ego you can write hundreds and thousands of pages since you are enjoying it. I would be wasting my time by repeating the real issues adnauseum with out any deliberation over it. enjoy yourself

[Yegan]

 

People irrespective of race, creed, colour and caste are allowed entry in all the temples today. Exceptions are

a) In puri those who are not born as hindus are not allowed entry in the temple

B)In Guruvayur krishna temple in Kerala, non hindus are not allowed entry.

C) In the temples of Kshudra devathas which are controlled by caste Hindus in villages entry in many cases are not allowed to harijans.

 

 

There are so many wonderful westerners hare krishna devotees. Restricting them access to temples is to my opinion a sin. I dont think that scriptures says anything about restricting non indian born devotees access to temples.

In puri, I think they do that because it is said that jaganath would be taken away one day by a westerner, but still this doesnt justify restriction to non indian devotees.

[Yegan]

 

And I ask again, why did Adi Shankara, being enlightened, quote something as barbaric as that, when the same Adi Shankara bowed to an untouchable, when he was impressed by his knowledge? Bowing to an untouchable and touching his feet doesn't really fit the traditional image of an orthodox Brahmin, does it?

If the above quote by Number 2 is correct, then at least Adi Shankara is indirectly acknowledging caste is independent of birth but instead by the level of spiritual knowledge.

[Guest guest]

 

by Sri Swami Sivananda

 

True religion does not consist in religious observances, baths and

pilgrimages but in loving all. Cosmic love is all-embracing and all-

inclusive. In pure love no one is shut out from its warm embrace. It

is wide enough to include the humblest of us, from the tiny ant to

the mighty elephant, from the condemned prisoner to the mighty

emperor, from the worst scoundrel on the surface of the earth, to

the reputed saint.

 

It is hatred that separates man from man, nation from nation,

country from country. It is pride and egoism that divide one man

from another man. Hatred, pride, egoism all are mental creations -

the products of ignorance only. They cannot stand before pure love.

Just as darkness is dispelled by the penetrating rays of the burning

sun, so also jealousy, hatred and egoism are dispelled by the rays

of divine love.

[Guest guest]

Namaste, I received that quote in my email today from the Sivananda daily reading list sivanandadaily. The quote actually appears to be from Swami Venkatesananda, in writings about Gurudev Sivananda's teachings. I thought it fits in with this thread discussion.

[shvu]

 

And I ask again, why did Adi Shankara, being enlightened, quote something as barbaric as that, when the same Adi Shankara bowed to an untouchable, when he was impressed by his knowledge? Bowing to an untouchable and touching his feet doesn't really fit the traditional image of an orthodox Brahmin, does it?

It can be interpreted to mean Shankara was respectful of all castes, but was also clear that no caste should step out of line and should abide by rules.

 

However, we should differentiate between his literature and his biography. His literature was written by himself while his biography was written by someone else - someone who was most likely an avid disciple of Shankara and was thus inspired and motivated to add color to the story of a regular human in an attempt to distinguish his personality.

 

For example, Shankara's biography abounds with miracles (as was the trend back then) such as gold coins out of thin air, encounter with Vyasa, etc. Yet, Shankara in his BSB says in one place "the fact that miracles do not happen today does not mean they were not happening in the past". Thus, in Shankara's own words, much of the events of his biography are to be discredited.

 

In short, attach more importance to literature than the biography.

 

Cheers

[Guest guest]

 

Shankaracharya has nowhere quoted in his commentary pouring of metling iron. This is more than figment of imagination of your biased friends.

 

 

Only now you say that.

 

If you care to actually read the thread properly, it has been said by someone else on first page of this thread that Shankara said that. And if you read the claim properly you would see it's molten lead, not molten iron. I don't know if it is true or not, but I'm saying if it is true then it is disgraceful that he would've said it and contrary to what we know of him. But it appears that Shankara believes in varna by birth, which funnily enough alot of modern Advaitist sects do not believe in.

 

 

Sometimes we put people up on such a high-pedestal because of their radical acts in history, we forget they too were not unaffected by the times that shaped them. And they may not have always been speaking and thinking with an enlightened mind.

 

 

Well if the claims are true, then probably this is also the case with Shankara.

 

 

It can be interpreted to mean Shankara was respectful of all castes, but was also clear that no caste should step out of line and should abide by rules.

 

 

Shankara himself stepped out of line by touching the feet of an untouchable and performing his mothers funeral rites as an Ascetic. He broke the caste rules himself. If he wanted to keep his followers in line regarding caste, by his actions he was not a good example.

 

 

For example, Shankara's biography abounds with miracles (as was the trend back then) such as gold coins out of thin air, encounter with Vyasa, etc. Yet, Shankara in his BSB says in one place "the fact that miracles do not happen today does not mean they were not happening in the past". Thus, in Shankara's own words, much of the events of his biography are to be discredited.

 

 

If the biography isn't true, then maybe he wasn't such a great personality after all. Maybe he was just good at winning debates in his time alone against the buddhists and previous Hindu schools, since the acharyas of other forms of Vedanta, after his time disagreed with him and according to their followers 'defeated' his philosophy. If Shankara was alive in the time of Ramanuja and the others, would he have been able to win them in debate?

 

The film 'Adi Shankaracharya' directed by G.V. Iyer had alot of reserarch into it into the life of the historical Shankara, so they eliminated the miracles. The film was viewed by the present shankaracharyas of the various maths at that time and they gave their consent to it as being accurate depiction of the life of Shankara. If the events were untrue, wouldn't they have objected? This film has the scene of Shankara bowing to the untouchable, performing his mothers funeral rites and saying the knowledge of Brahman is for everyone in the world. When he's talking about knowledge of Brahman, does he mean Upanishadic knowledge not the karma kanda of the Vedas? Which makes sense if he says Vedas are just for Brahmins.

[Guest guest]

A Brahmin who does not live up to the title Brahmin, will be reborn in a lower caste in their next lifetime. So yes, it is possible to change castes.

[Guest guest]

 

A Brahmin who does not live up to the title Brahmin, will be reborn in a lower caste in their next lifetime. So yes, it is possible to change castes.

 

A Brahmin who say he is a Brahmin but doesn't life up to the title of a Brahmin, should have no power and no respect. Hindu society is a fault for putting a people so high who don't deserve it.

 

Yes, it's all good for the high castes, but what is wrong is that it tells those born into low castes to stay low and not develop themselves. To stay within the limits imposed by others and hope that they would be reborn higher in the next life. This is it's biggest failing. As someone suggested, Adi Shakara himself wasn't as enlightened as we make out.

 

There is no concrete proof of reincarnation and castes by birth is debatable when you take into account this world when many cultures, races and religions. There's no castes by birth for the rest of the world is there? Now if there was no reincarnation then a person of low caste person with ability would have wasted his life being a servant to others, if he listened to what the Casteists told him. It seems those born into higher castes have a fear of lower castes developing themselves, especially with the recent news about higher caste Indian college students wanting to go to the west for their Education because places have been reserved for lower castes. When they come to the west they will be put into their place, when they talk their caste nonsense.

[Guest guest]

 

A Brahmin who say he is a Brahmin but doesn't life up to the title of a Brahmin, should have no power and no respect. Hindu society is a fault for putting a people so high who don't deserve it.

 

he should especially not get respect from true Brahmins. It's time for Brahmins to clean house. The best thing that could happen is for all the true Brahmins and noble Kshatriyas, to denounce caste discrimination loudly. This may already be happening. I do not live in India, so I do not know the word on the village street

 

 

Yes, it's all good for the high castes, but what is wrong is that it tells those born into low castes to stay low and not develop themselves.

 

Yes.. I think about how in America we tell people that anyone can rise above their circumstances and live the American Dream. We see people come out of poor ghettos and dysfunctional families, and become multi-millionaires and important people in our society. This is because the American system, even with it's faults, is set up so that anyone can become a successful businesman or leader if they strive hard enough.

 

Also in other religions, like Catholicism and Protestant Christianity, ANYONE can become a priest or religious leader. In Catholicism, anyone can apply for seminary and become an ordained priest; and likewise in Protestant churches. Now, I am not sure if this is right or not; but it's a difference between the Vedic religious tradition and the Christian tradition.

 

Of course maybe the priesthood is by divine birth. I think in ancient Israel it was by divine birthright, with the Levite priesthood. So maybe the Brahmins are right on that. Regardless, discrimination is never right! And a true priest should be a servant of the people, and live up to their title as a Leader and Role Model.

 

 

There is no concrete proof of reincarnation and castes by birth is debatable when you take into account this world when many cultures, races and religions. There's no castes by birth for the rest of the world is there? Now if there was no reincarnation then a person of low caste person with ability would have wasted his life being a servant to others, if he listened to what the Casteists told him.

 

Caste in Hindu culture is directly tied in with belief in reincarnation, karma and past lives. Without reincarnation and karma there would be zero rationale for why some are born into high circumstances and some into low. I can grasp that karma plays a role in this matter - but what I do not agree with is fatalism. Where one believes that their lot is set, and one cannot rise above their circumstances because of past karma. Krsna refutes this thinking strongly in the Gita, when He says even if someone is the worst sinner, they can obtain supreme realization, by Yoga practice. He says also that the enlightened sage does not look upon the temporal identifications of caste; but recognizes the same Atman is in all.

 

When you practice seeing the same Atman that resides in you, in everyone, there is absolutely no room for elitism and discrimination.

 

We must live the must used phrase of 'Namaste', not with cheap platitudes but in reality. If everyone followed the meaning of Namaste that profressed to be Hindu, we'd really be a great light in the world. But as Ghandi said we must be the change we wish to see in the world. So while we can complain about what others are doing or not doing, we must lead by example. By acting fair and compassionate to all, we are helping be a part of the change. And representing the Sanatana Dharma in the way it should be.

 

 

It seems those born into higher castes have a fear of lower castes developing themselves, especially with the recent news about higher caste Indian college students wanting to go to the west for their Education because places have been reserved for lower castes. When they come to the west they will be put into their place, when they talk their caste nonsense.

 

Yes, could be a wake up call for some sheltered indians. No one will honor any high caste indian because of some birthright in the US. They will have to earn respect. And earning respect, is the only true way to be respected. We should not want to be respected because of what house we were born in, or who are parents are. We should only want to be respected because of our actions and character alone. This is how a man earns a true name for himself - by his actions and actions alone.

 

No one cares what caste Ammachi was born in. She is loved the world over, because of what she does and who she is. A Mahatma is not a Mahatma because they say they are, but because of what they do. And some sudras are Mahatmas; while some Brahmins are sudras.

[Guest guest]

By NIRMALA GEORGE, Associated Press Writer

 

NEW DELHI, India (AP) - At the end of a network of dusty lanes in Trilokpuri, a suburb on the outskirts of the Indian capital, a scavenger lugs home a plastic bucket of water for her family. It is dusk, and Birum and her two daughters have spent the day collecting used plastic bags from rotting waste in city dumps. The mother and daughters are filthy and hungry - yet they cannot bathe or cook with water from a tap near their home.

 

"That's the tap for the upper castes. We are not allowed there,'' the 33-year-old Birum says as she sits on the dirt floor making bread on a coal-burning stove. Although water is supplied by municipal authorities, the few public taps in this shantytown of nearly 10,000 people are divided along caste lines. Taps for the lower castes are nearly a half-mile away, and the water barely trickles. Birum is a Dalit, the lowest rank in India's 3,000-year-old caste system, a pernicious practice that discriminates against nearly a fourth of the country's billion-plus population.

 

The caste system was described in Hinduism's ancient sacred text, the Rig Veda, as a social order intended to maintain harmony in society. It divides people into four main castes, but there also are those outside the system, the "untouchables,'' who now call themselves "Dalits,'' literally "broken people.'' Though discrimination based on caste has been outlawed since India's constitution was adopted in 1950, the practice pervades society.

 

And while admitting efforts to end caste discrimination have not been implemented as rigorously as they should, the Indian government wants to keep the matter out of the international spotlight. The government sent an official delegation, including many Dalits, to the U.N. World Conference on Racism in Durban, South Africa. But India also worked to keep caste discrimination off the conference agenda. Condemning the caste system would equate "casteism with racism, which makes India a racist country, which we are not,'' Omar Abdullah, India's minister of state for foreign affairs, said in Durban.

 

Ruth Manorama of the National Campaign for Dalit Human Rights disagrees with government assertions that the caste system does not amount to racism. "Discrimination against the Dalits and lower castes is similar to racism, only it's more vulgar, more horrendous,'' she said. "No one can deny that millions of Dalits suffer the worst forms of discrimination.'' Dipankar Gupta, a professor at Jawaharlal Nehru University, accuses India of a double standard for not wanting caste to be discussed in Durban, saying:

 

"India is ready to discuss racism so long as it is in other countries, but not caste in its own backyard.'' Indian officials describe caste as an internal problem that can only be cured by implementing - and strengthening - anti-discrimination laws. Ranjana Kumari, a women's rights activist, supported the Dalits' complaints but questioned the wisdom of looking to an international conference for help. "It should not become a stick for the international community to beat India with,'' she said. Human rights activist Swami Agnivesh says much of the discrimination in the caste system results from the actions of Brahmins, the priestly caste.

 

"Over time, this system was corrupted by the Brahmins to preserve their superiority and to ensure that people were available to do menial jobs without rising up in revolt,'' he said. Dalits long have done onerous work for low pay. They clean out public toilets, skin dead animals or labor to pay their forefathers' debts. After independence from Britain in 1947, India launched an affirmative action plan to wipe out caste distinctions, setting aside places for Dalits in universities, government employment and legislative assembly seats.

 

But these moves only benefit about 3 percent of the nearly 240 million Dalits. In the cities, caste distinctions become blurred. The anonymity of urban life - taking buses and working in offices and factories - helps push caste to the background. But in rural India, where nearly 75 percent of Indians live, caste dominates where people live, who they can marry and the work they do. Dalits cannot enter temples used by high-caste Hindus.

 

Indian newspapers carry daily stories of atrocities against Dalits or young couples being killed, sometimes by relatives, for daring to love someone from another caste. Dalits rarely file complaints with the police. ``Who can we complain to? And what will happen when we return to the village? I tell my sons, just keep quiet. This is a curse on our lives,'' said 71-year-old Kishan Chand. Chand's son Mahesh, a road sweeper, says Dalits must organize and use their political power. "We have the numbers, which is why the politicians come to us when elections come round,'' he said.

 

Dalits once were left out of India's power structure. But in the past three decades, they have gained a political voice and a share of prominent public office. India's president is a Dalit. So is the speaker of the lower house of Parliament. "But that has no bearing on the situation of the Dalits. This is like saying Indira Gandhi was India's prime minister. Did that change the plight of Indian women?'' asked Kumari, the women's rights activist.

 

While the media debate rages, the Dalits in Trilokpuri shrug at the notion of change. "My mother did scavenging. I am a scavenger. I don't see my children doing anything else, whatever the politicians may say,'' said Birum. "This is our caste.''

[Guest guest]

I have heard only Indian Hindus acknowledge the caste system. It is not important to American Hindus, Canadian Hindus, or even other eastern hindus like balinese hindus. Therefore, please do not equate caste discrimination with all hindus - only a select amount of indian bigots.

[Guest guest]

catur-varnyam maya srstam

guna-karma-vibhagasah

tasya kartaram api mam

viddhy akartaram avyayam

 

 

i dont know the above stanja is exactly said by God krishna or not. I dont known ,

I have one doubt about "adimanav" in hinduism how to describe it.

means my exact wheather god is made human depend upon his karma and guna.

 

I think god doesn't said this thing.

 

So , my consulsion is Caste is depend upon place of birth.

[Guest guest]

 

I have heard only Indian Hindus acknowledge the caste system. It is not important to American Hindus, Canadian Hindus, or even other eastern hindus like balinese hindus. Therefore, please do not equate caste discrimination with all hindus - only a select amount of indian bigots.

 

So therefore it is unfair on poor low caste Hindus to be born in India! If you're a Hindu of a lower caste it is better to be born anywhere else in this world apart from India.

 

I don't think caste is important amongst educated Hindu living in the cities, it is important among the village communities in rural areas.

 

I still do not believe caste or varna is determined by birth only and if it really is, then why doesn't the shankaracharya movement discriminate against westerners who seek their advice since they are supposed to be outside the caste system? If they followed their caste rules they would be nowhere near westerners. But they still discriminate against their own people!

[Guest guest]

 

If they followed their caste rules they would be nowhere near westerners.

 

what rules state that westerners cannot be taught? what kind of bigotry is this that they practice! Sir, tell me. I am a white westerner seeking spiritual advancement. I want to know God and find out what is Truth. how can spiritual truth be not for people of all races? is God not the same parent of us all? why then would he discriminate against me because I have a white body. I have read the words of Guru Nanak who said that the spiritual teachings revealed in the Sikh religion are for people of EVERY race. is it not the same in the Hindu religion? please explain this to me how someone could follow a racist religion and say they follow the one True God of us all.

[Guest guest]

People are more important than rules and rituals. Never forget this. Rules and Rituals were designed to help people. People were not created for the sake of rules and rituals. Some people can connect directly with God without any strict guidelines and rituals.

 

There are religious traditions on this planet that have no rituals and consider everyone their own priest. There are others that have a ton of rituals to help people connect with the spiritual world. In those traditions (such as the vedic tradition), the priests are there to serve the people and help them to connect with the spiritual world. They are not there to be self-serving, ego-maniacs, who care only about their own position and standing.

 

When the priest's position becomes more important than the people he is serving, than we have serious corruption. When rules and regulations become more important than compassion for our fellow man, then we have cold-heartedness and a religion devoid of divine love. This is why the Dalai Lama teaches that his religion is kindness. It's one reason why the Buddha rejected the rituals of the brahmins of his day. In their lifeless, stale state, their rituals and regulations had become hinderances, rather than helping the people they were meant to serve.

 

Rituals and priests are only helpful when they serve us. When they work against us, they help no one, and lead to spiritual depravity. Every Brahmin should be working to uplift those of lower castes, not bringing them down. A spiritual leader raises people up.

 

An spiritual leader does not look on outer appearances or judge self-righteously, thinking he is better than others; or "it's their karma that they suffer, why should I care". Nooo. The enlightened sage holds no such coldness in his heart. His heart brims and overflows with divine love and compassion for those suffering in this world. And he sees the same eternal Soul in everyone. And thus recognizes everyone as his brother, sister, friend, beloved.

 

There is no sudra, there are no brahmins. There is only Atman. Only in the temporal worlds is there such division. And those who bring the Light of the eternal world into this temporal world, never look at people with their fleshly eyes. They see all men with the divine spiritual eye. The eye that sees all as equal. All as divine beings.

[Guest guest]

 

what rules state that westerners cannot be taught? what kind of bigotry is this that they practice! Sir, tell me. I am a white westerner seeking spiritual advancement. I want to know God and find out what is Truth. how can spiritual truth be not for people of all races? is God not the same parent of us all? why then would he discriminate against me because I have a white body. I have read the words of Guru Nanak who said that the spiritual teachings revealed in the Sikh religion are for people of EVERY race. is it not the same in the Hindu religion? please explain this to me how someone could follow a racist religion and say they follow the one True God of us all.

 

Guest, I think you misunderstood what Number 2 was saying when he stated that. What he meant was that Shankarcharya never advocated caste by birth because so many westerners follow him. I am sure this is what he meant but i'll let him answer. I do know that he did not mean that Hinduism is not for westerners.

 

Yes Sikhism is the youngest of all religions and so it does preach equality. However, Hinduism is a much older religion (one of the oldest faiths in the world!) so it does not outright preach equality as clearly as Sikhism but trust me Hinduism has many scriptures that advocate equality. Actually, the MAIN teaching and GOAL in Hinduism is that our bodies are temporary- this means that one should never see a person as Black or White, pretty or ugly or a Muslim or Jew because these are our materialistic bodies and our soul goes through many births so we will all be Black or White, Muslim or Jew one day- if this is not equality then I don'tknow what can be a better answer for all humankind if only they practiced such a teaching. Anyone can reach Moksha in Hinduism.

 

Also, I am not saying this because I am Hindu but you can do your research, as i've done mine and you will find that Hinduism is the most universal and tolerant religion as it never regards anyone elses faith or practices as meaningless. Hinduism is truly for people of all races. Buddhism, Taoism and confucianism are the only other religions after Hinduism in my opinion that are open to different modes of worship.

 

So please don't get the wrong idea of Hinduism bieng a racist religion. Hinduism is the oldest religion in the world so there will bound to be some bad rumours but this is far from bieng true. If you would like to learn more about Hinduism please feel free to post your questions or interact with any of us here. There are great people on this board that would be willing to help you our if you have any questions and such. =)

[Guest guest]

 

what rules state that westerners cannot be taught? what kind of bigotry is this that they practice! Sir, tell me. I am a white westerner seeking spiritual advancement. I want to know God and find out what is Truth. how can spiritual truth be not for people of all races? is God not the same parent of us all? why then would he discriminate against me because I have a white body. I have read the words of Guru Nanak who said that the spiritual teachings revealed in the Sikh religion are for people of EVERY race. is it not the same in the Hindu religion? please explain this to me how someone could follow a racist religion and say they follow the one True God of us all.

 

The other guest was right. You misunderstood what I was saying. This thread is about if Adi Shankaracharya denounced caste or not. Some here say he believed in varna by birth and his movement today in India still believe in varna by birth. But if Hinduism is a universal religion you cannot believe in varna by birth is just for Indian Hindus as the rest of the world consists of mainly non-hindus. What about Hindu converts? And how come the rest of the world doesn't need to follow varna/caste by birth? Those who support caste system need to answer these questions.

 

Now Shankaracharya's followers believe if you are born a shudra or untouchable you need to stay in your caste and be good so you can move up the caste ladder in your next life. They are orthodox brahmins who follow caste rules which discriminate against lower castes. Since westerners are outside the caste system, they see them as outcastes or untouchables. But the shankaracharya movement are known to give advice to westerners and treat them well, however they would discriminate against a Hindu untouchable if he came for spiritual advice, even though he is one of their own people! In other words they are partial to westerners. It's very unfortunate that they have this attitude. They should treat everyone equal. It's ridiculous how they try to justify this varna by birth system.

I personally think caste rules are nonsense and outdated.

 

This view above is NOT what all schools of Hinduism think of westerners or lower castes, just some traditionalist groups have this narrow thinking. There are even Hindu groups that teach Shankaracharya's teachings to all people of all castes as well as westerners. Obviously they ignore the caste rules.

[Guest guest]

 

The other guest was right. You misunderstood what I was saying. This thread is about if Adi Shankaracharya denounced caste or not. Some here say he believed in varna by birth and his movement today in India still believe in varna by birth.

 

I thought Advaitins believe every soul is ultimately Brahman, and that all is One? so how could they persecute any soul? Is God a sado-masochist? Why don't they live their teachings? Talk about hypocrisy. Saying we are all divine in their flowery rhetoric, and then going and treating people like dirt in their actions.

 

 

But if Hinduism is a universal religion you cannot believe in varna by birth is just for Indian Hindus as the rest of the world consists of mainly non-hindus. What about Hindu converts?

 

you're right, Hinduism can't simutaneously be a universal religion, and a religion just for select Indians. If Hinduism were just a religion for select Indians, then we'd know it is a false religion. Because a true religion, is universal in its outlook, vision and acceptance. Christianity, Buddhism and Islam do not speak for one race in their writings and proclaimations; their vision is for all humans. So the same must be true for Hinduism, if it's truly the Eternal Religion as it claims. Else it's just a misguided, narrow-minded tribal religion.. and I do not believe it is.

 

 

They are orthodox brahmins who follow caste rules which discriminate against lower castes.

 

are these just a few primitive, uncivilized tribesmen we are speaking of here? The Swamis that come to America seem so nice and loving.

 

All I know is, any religious teachings which teach discrimination must be soundly rejected. We know they are unrighteous, if they teach elitism and bigotry, instead of offering benefit to all. We are to treat all people equally, are we not? Spiritual teachings are not given for a few, but for all people to benefit from.

 

 

Since westerners are outside the caste system, they see them as outcastes or untouchables.

 

They think all people born in outside India are scum? how could they hold such hateful, dark views in their heart? Isn't everyone in the world equally important? why would they think people of other races are bad people or untouchable?

 

 

they would discriminate against a Hindu untouchable if he came for spiritual advice, even though he is one of their own people!

 

What 'man of God' refuses to give help to those needy souls who come asking for it? I have never, ever heard of such a thing; for a man of God to spit at people seeking his help. I always thought Swamis and Priests were suppose to try and help and guide all who come to them for spiritual advice. Not turn someone away because of his/her birthstation. Universal acceptance is certainly the case with the Swamis who come west. They always condemn bigotry and teach love and compassion for all.

[vrajavasi]

Radhe Krishna

 

The position that shankaracharya indicated a system of varna by birth have been unequivocally established in this thread whether with like or dislike. I have went through in shri vaishnava group of threads and give below how Ramanujacharya viewed the issue :

 

Quote : 1

 

AzhvArs who are nitya sUri-s, are not to be compared to any Tom, Dick and Harry who walk on the road. rAmAnuja, who undoubdedly was a great reformer, never got any non-brahmin to be a priest, or to enter the sanctum sanctorum. In SrI bhAshyam, he has indicated his position on these kinds of issues.

 

Quote : 2

 

It is my hope that this dhurmathi's ( Chief Minister's)

edict will experience a slow death and will be thrown on

the ash heap of History as in the case of the Krimi kanta

ChOzhan .

Meanwhile , let us help to push this aggressive behaviour out however we can and think of MahA Lakshmi's comparable KaruNA katAksham to remove all these amangaLams including the source .

Radhe Krishna