Did Adi Shankaracharya denounce Caste?

[Guest guest]

If caste is by birth how can whites/blacks/mexicans/chinese converts to Hinduism become priests?

 

The truth is, just like Balinese Hindus threw out many of the corrupt practices/beliefs of the cultural hinduism of India, when Hinduism spread to the island of Bali, so will the westerners becoming Hindus, throw out the corrupt practices that cannot be universally applied.

 

The Hinduism of the west, can be seen as a beautiful religion that accepts all and has no caste, but is only interested in helping people in their spiritual advancement. We can see this already in such groups as the Self-Realization Fellowship Temples in the west, and other western hindu organizations. There is never a mention of caste, never a mention of race, all these things are totally ignored and everyone is treated as total equals.. and thousands of westerners are learning about Sanatana Dharma, and seeking spiritual advancement thru the teachings and practices.

 

Hinduism has a bright future in the west, where bigotry and caste will be forgotten.. and Sanatana Dharma can shine as it was meant to shine; as the eternal science of self-realization and liberation for every soul that has fallen into Samsaric existence.

[Guest guest]

 

I thought Advaitins believe every soul is ultimately Brahman, and that all is One? so how could they persecute any soul? Is God a sado-masochist? Why don't they live their teachings? Talk about hypocrisy. Saying we are all divine in their flowery rhetoric, and then going and treating people like dirt in their actions.

 

 

We are talking about Adi Shankaracharya's followers here, not all Advaitists. I don't not know of any other Advaitist group that have these prejudiced views Shankara's followers have. And remember Adi Shankara wasn't the first Advaitist, it was there since the Upanishads. But it is certainly strange how Adi Shankara, being presented as a casteist and his followers observe caste rules all agree that the incident where Shankara would bow down to an untouchable and declare him his greatest teacher really did happen in his life. I have a friend who has an explanation about all this.

 

 

you're right, Hinduism can't simutaneously be a universal religion, and a religion just for select Indians. If Hinduism were just a religion for select Indians, then we'd know it is a false religion. Because a true religion, is universal in its outlook, vision and acceptance. Christianity, Buddhism and Islam do not speak for one race in their writings and proclaimations; their vision is for all humans. So the same must be true for Hinduism, if it's truly the Eternal Religion as it claims. Else it's just a misguided, narrow-minded tribal religion.. and I do not believe it is.

 

 

Very good points, I hope the old-fashioned traditionalists would understand this. But the traditionalists are losing their grip on society, they will die out and everyone would forget about them. Hinduism is constantly evolving and will adapt to changing circumstances, the way it has always done in the past thousands of years of it's history. Ask yourself why is it that everywhere Christianity and Islam went the religions of those countries have died out, but Hinduism is still alive? It's because it is able to adapt to any environment while the core teachings remain intact.

 

 

are these just a few primitive, uncivilized tribesmen we are speaking of here? The Swamis that come to America seem so nice and loving.

 

 

It may be the sampradayas of Shankara and according to some Ramanuja and Madhva who teach caste like this, but from what I've read myself Ramanuja was a revolutionary on the caste system and allowed low castes into the temples and said all can reach God in this very life whatever their caste.

 

It was Swami Vivekananda who was the first Hindu monk in the west and the first to start an American Hindu movement which still survives to this day. And he saw it as a good opportunity to introduce Hinduism to those people who do not follow caste distinctions to form a new society like the original vedic society was. He did not believe in caste by birth, but that your gunas and the type of person you are, determines your varna. He saw Hinduism as a universal all-embracing religion that accepts anyone who is dedicated to live by it. It is silly for traditionalist backwards Hindus to reject converts, since in the ancient times Greeks living in India had converted and were accepted by the community.

 

Dispite his apparent caste prejudices, Adi Shankara was great in many ways. You could say his caste prejudices came from those around him, who were all orthodox Brahmins. But if he really was that intelligent as his followers make out, he should've known better.

 

There are more non-shankara sampradaya Advaitists teaching Advaita in the world than the Shankara sampradaya are. There schools truly have recognised the universalism of Advaita.

 

 

All I know is, any religious teachings which teach discrimination must be soundly rejected. We know they are unrighteous, if they teach elitism and bigotry, instead of offering benefit to all. We are to treat all people equally, are we not? Spiritual teachings are not given for a few, but for all people to benefit from.

 

 

I agree, all the true spiritual gurus are not afraid to tell everyone what they think of caste system. The teachings are for everyone and nobody can surpress them.

 

 

They think all people born in outside India are scum? how could they hold such hateful, dark views in their heart? Isn't everyone in the world equally important? why would they think people of other races are bad people or untouchable?

 

 

Yeah, some of them have a very backwards mentality. They probably have no idea about the rest of the world, the diversity of it's people and it's many cultures. They seem to think Hindus would only be reborn as Indian Hindus, just up and down the caste-ladder. There's more chance of being another race and religion than to be reborn Hindu. Being born Hindu (of any caste) must be a once-in-a-few-hundred lifetimes opportunity!

 

 

What 'man of God' refuses to give help to those needy souls who come asking for it? I have never, ever heard of such a thing; for a man of God to spit at people seeking his help. I always thought Swamis and Priests were suppose to try and help and guide all who come to them for spiritual advice. Not turn someone away because of his/her birthstation. Universal acceptance is certainly the case with the Swamis who come west. They always condemn bigotry and teach love and compassion for all.

 

 

Anyone who teaches, practices or promotes caste discrimination is clearly not enlightened and is NO 'man of God', they should all be rejected as false. Thankfully we still have some genunine Hindu swamis we could learn from.

 

This thread has been very popular as you can see, over 100 posts and 1047+ views, shows how people are interested to see what Adi Shankara really thought about caste. But still we haven't solved how his actions in life do not support his writings, in regards to caste.

[Guest guest]

 

Very good points, I hope the old-fashioned traditionalists would understand this. But the traditionalists are losing their grip on society, they will die out and everyone would forget about them.

 

Your post is very enouraging, Number 2. I have read many of your posts on this forum and they are always balanced and filled with good insights. So glad you are here sharing your knolwegd. Your posts have encouraged me more than once.

 

 

Hinduism is constantly evolving and will adapt to changing circumstances, the way it has always done in the past thousands of years of it's history. Ask yourself why is it that everywhere Christianity and Islam went the religions of those countries have died out, but Hinduism is still alive? It's because it is able to adapt to any environment while the core teachings remain intact.

 

Good point. Almost every culture that the Christians came in contact with has been destroyed. I have studied south american history and the native peoples of that land have practically been destroyed. A few shamans were able to travel high up into the Andes, and preserve their tradition away from the cruel destruction path of the spanish missionaries.

 

The same we can see in the middle east, where Islam destroyed all the persian and ancient arabic cultures and beliefs. They were not able to destroy Hinduism however! even after centuries of trying now in India. And not just Muslims, but Christian missionaries as well.

 

On another forum I was reading how the Manu Smriti which has a lot of hateful statements in it, was actually corrupted by Christians and Muslims, who interpolated certain statements in there, to make Hindus seem like barbaric, uncivilized people. I do not know if this is true, but it would not surprise me. It just shows you to what length Hinduism has been attacked, and yet it is still standing. Because it truly is the Eternal Religion, it is impossible to snuff out.

 

 

It may be the sampradayas of Shankara and according to some Ramanuja and Madhva who teach caste like this, but from what I've read myself Ramanuja was a revolutionary on the caste system and allowed low castes into the temples and said all can reach God in this very life whatever their caste.

 

I have never seen a shakta guru, say the Devi cares about what caste you are. And you'll notice that female gurus who are viewed as an incarnation of the Devi, always have followers of ALL races and backgrounds. Look at Ammachi, Sri Karunamayi, Shree Maa, etc.. they have large international followings; because they embody Universal Motherly Love. This much I know, the Divine Mother cares about all her children, not just her indian children.

 

 

It is silly for traditionalist backwards Hindus to reject converts, since in the ancient times Greeks living in India had converted and were accepted by the community.

 

These bigots are unelightened, and blinded by their narrow vision and traditions. Those closehearted indian Hindus that think spiritual teachings are only for one race, are nothing but the KKK of Hinduism.

 

Westerner Hindu converts must be shocked when these leaders say they can't be Hindu, even though they are now initiated disciples of a Hindu Guru, and have dedicated their life to the path of Sanatana Dharma.

 

I am sure it will be these western converts who reach moksha, before those traditionalists, whose heart is closed to the whole of mankind and whose spiritual vision is blinded by racialism and casteism.

 

Buddha, Anandamayi Ma, Ammachi, Shree Maa, Vivekananda, Ramakrishna, Prabhupada, Yogananda, and every great indian saint has shown the way for all mankind. Nowhere have these great souls, said "our teachings are just for these castes, or this race." The message of a true spiritual master is always universal.

 

So those tribalist brahmins can sit in their little villages, worried about preserving their traditions of bigotry, while the western spiritual seekers are seeking the Universal goal of all Yoga practices and making true spiritual advancement.

 

 

There are more non-shankara sampradaya Advaitists teaching Advaita in the world than the Shankara sampradaya are. There schools truly have recognised the universalism of Advaita.

 

Right on.. I know there are many. I know of one big Advaita group in PA, USA, that has a vedic school for people of all races, and they are really teaching a lot. These Gurus understand the true meaning of Advaita.

arshavidya.org

 

 

Yeah, some of them have a very backwards mentality. They probably have no idea about the rest of the world, the diversity of it's people and it's many cultures. They seem to think Hindus would only be reborn as Indian Hindus, just up and down the caste-ladder. There's more chance of being another race and religion than to be reborn Hindu. Being born Hindu (of any caste) must be a once-in-a-few-hundred lifetimes opportunity!

 

heh, do they actually think there is such a thing as an 'indian soul'? do they think only indians reincarnate? they must not know much about souls and reincarnation! Souls have no race. And all souls reincarnate. Any intelligient Hindu realizes this.

 

Most of the persons in an indian body today, were in a white, yellow, or black body in their last life. Including many of these brahmins. In their next life hopefully they are reborn into a situation where they can remember a bit of their past life as a brahmin. Maybe while they are living in an american suburb as a white kid, they can recall the good old days of being one of the privileged few able to read and study the Vedas. Then they might realize how foolish and narrow-sighted they were, while they are reading their comic books instead of the scriptures.

[vrajavasi]

Radhe Krishna

 

The position that shankaracharya indicated a system of varna by birth have been unequivocally established in this thread whether with like or dislike. I have went through shri vaishnava group of threads and give below how Ramanujacharya viewed the issue :

 

Quote : 1

 

AzhvArs who are nitya sUri-s, are not to be compared to any Tom, Dick and Harry who walk on the road. rAmAnuja, who undoubdedly was a great reformer, never got any non-brahmin to be a priest, or to enter the sanctum sanctorum. In SrI bhAshyam, he has indicated his position on these kinds of issues.

 

Quote : 2

 

It is my hope that this dhurmathi's ( Chief Minister's)

edict will experience a slow death and will be thrown on

the ash heap of History as in the case of the Krimi kanta

ChOzhan .

Meanwhile , let us help to push this aggressive behaviour out however we can and think of MahA Lakshmi's comparable KaruNA katAksham to remove all these amangaLams including the source .

 

Radhe Krishna

 

<!-- / message -->

[Guest guest]

Ramanujacharya and Shankaracharya may have promoted casteism, but other enlightened masters have not.

 

Those who feel strongly about human injustices, will not be drawn to a Guru who preaches inequality and teaches our fate is set at birth.

 

Because some have the unfortunate karma of being born in some backward, Indian Village, does not mean we should forget about them. Don't get me wrong, I understand those born in America and the UK have better karma, because they are born into a wealthy nation, where they can be well-educated and pursue their spiritual goals without being held back because of what household they were born in. And I agree Americans and Europeans should be praised for having such good karma, to be born outside of the corrupt caste ridden villages of India. But still, those who have the unfortunate karma of being born into one of the poorest nations of the world (India), in one of their dirt poor villages, should not be forgotten. It is the duty of humanitarians the world over, to fight against the social injustices that go on in India under the guise of religion and traditionalism. If it weren't for this, we might still be seeing indian widows being forced to throw themselves onto funeral pyres when their husbands died.

[vrajavasi]

Radhe Krishna,

 

If one says Varna system by birth it never means that people who are not born in the category of dvija - viz., Brahmana, kshathriya and vaishya - are left in the lurch. The system completely take care of their spiritual needs and it is seen that they attain equal knowledge about god - may be knowledge better than than of the dvijas - in those areas they obtain knowledge leaving certain duties which are perhaps to be performed by those born as brahmins.

 

The excerpt given below is from vaishnava thread penned by shri pattangi.

 

carefully go through the contents and judge for yourself

 

 

Sri Thirukoviloor Jeeyar Swami, has many thousands of sishyas

most of them are for lack of a better word, backward castes and very poor.

Many of them do not have ample and good housing, clothes or food, but know

the 4000,

Mummukshuppadi (rahsya grantham), SriVachanaBhooshanam etc by heart

and have learnt the meanings over and over again.

He says,

==="Our sishyas even though they know the arulicheyal material better than many Brahmins,

they never try to boast their knowledge and seem to cry in the anubhavams.

These tears of anubhavams are all the joy a devotee needs.

None of them ever came to me asking, "let me be the next Jeeyar or the

Archaka".

This is because they are in the anubhavam and they are in the sampradaya.

They know the material and they know that only one with upaveetham can do all

Veidhika duties attached to the duties of the Madadhipathi. " ====

PS: Though usually Jeeyars (yathis) cannot do AgniKariyam, they still have

other duties,

and the agni kariyam done before any samashreyanam is done under the

supervision of the Jeeyar.

=> Non-Brahmin scholars in todays world:

================================

There are many non-brahmin scholars and upanyasakas

and they are accepted by "brahmin" srivaishnavas as well.

D.A Joeseph Bhagawathar:

=====================

He is extremely popular and has received the title "Vaishanva Sudaraazhi"

and is writing an article series in the current Geethacharyan

(a magazine by Dr. MA Venkartakrishana - Brahmin run magazine)

he has many books, upanyasams and following.

Sri Purushottama Naidu Swamin: The most popular tamil translation of

Eedu, (the Vykhyanam for 4000) that

many Brahmins carry is of Sri Purushottama Naidu. Many brahmins

refer to him and owe allegance to

his work.

Sri Pandithia Krisha Veni Ammiar (a woman): Very famous for Mumukshuppadi

Vyakhyanam and books.

Sri SubbuReddiar Swamin, Nathalla Sampath Chettiar and many many others.

I can give you many examples of current day scholars, upanyasakas and

writers who are non-brahmins

and others who came from other faith and still carry their original faith

name, sri Ali Swamin, Joeseph Swamin etc.

There are Brahmins who sit in their upanyasa goshti and enjoy the divine

nectar.

In Sri Vaishnavam all are equal.

In Veidhikam, all are still equal in the eyes of the LORD and in their

capacity to love him

and to attain moksha, but only certain people can perform certain tasks.

Those are the

rules in Veidhikam.

Allow me to elaborate:

=> A personal question for all to think and Answer.

================================================== ====

Knowing well that tri-kala sandhya is the basic requirement to even qualify to

perform Veidhika Karyams like homam, yagyams etc.

** Would a non-brahmin devotee with faith call for a non-brahmin preist to

perform any Veidhika agni-karyam in his home for his home function.

** Would a brahmin devotee with faith call for a non-brahmin preist to

perform any Veidhika agni-karyam in his home for his home function.

If the answer to both is "NO", then think why would anyone say YES do this

to the Temple (esp. Dhivya Desams)

================================================== ====================

True devotees know and respect these rules. If service to Lord in the

temple is the intention,

there are many ways to serve. There are many devotee non-brahmins engaged

in temple service

and they never come forward seeking the any Vaidhika service that

specifically needs brahmins.

I do agree that there are many brahmin priests who are not following the

rules,

and that needs to be addressed and specified rules need to be implemented.

The same is the case with other branches of sanaathana dharma,

 

Shri A.V.Krishnaswamy reddiars commentary on Soundarya lahari is referred by many brahmin scholars because of his easy way of explaining the tatvaartha of shankaraacharya . Same with thiruppugazah and thirumarai Although brahmins are well versed in Thiuppugazh and thirumarai, they passionately go through the explanations of shri krupaananda vaariar who is even hailed as the 64th naayanmaar.

 

all said - but whatever is destined by god is bound to happen.

 

Radhe Krishna

[Guest guest]

can someone answer what caste converts to Hinduism belong to? is it based on what employment they have? What caste are south africans who have been initiated by Ammachi and now practice Sanatana Dharma?

 

since we are all the children of Manu, than everyone must be a part of have a caste, even those unaware of. Krishna says he created 4 castes (not outcastes or the infinite amount of subcastes). He did not say I created these castes just for the people of India. There are billions living outside of India, so what caste has Krishna placed them in?

[vrajavasi]

Radhe Krishna,

 

It depends as to how you view the system.

 

In varna by birth system, there are 4 varnas and people who are not borne in any four of the varnas are outside the varna system. But that never never mean that they are far from god. Rahim, raskan, kabir, latif did not aspire for fitting into one of the varnas. They aspired for only god. But still they were realised souls. They attained the lotus feet of god which was not attaied by many of those who were born as brahmins or kshathriyas or vaishyas or shudras. God does not see the varna of any soul for liberating him. He sees only the karma of the soul. That is what is explained in shruthi and smruthis.

 

A soul born in brahmana varna becomes a vraathya by being unmindful of duties ordained to him by god would never never be dearer to god and he would be subject to punishments prescribed by god in this regard.

 

A soul who does not belong to any varna but love god can surely be liberated and become more knowledgeable than those who are born as brahmins if he sincerely go through the religious literature for the study of which even many life times would be insufficient.

 

 

This is so the case if and if at all a foreigner considers varna by birth system.

 

If he a person does not believe in a varna by birth system, Still there are many many avenues for getting acquainted and practice sanaathana dharma.

In the current age, a vast majority of people well intended people who do not believe in varna by birth system and there are many organisations which are noble and well intended and do not believe varna by birth system. They can very well take care of these souls.

 

And above all varna sangraha is an event predicted and foreseen by sages which is supposed to happen in kaliyuga.

 

That being the case whatever things are happening are happening as they are predestined by god and every god loving person should steadfastly engaged in god loving.

 

hatred is an avaguna which would take away a soul from lord.

 

whether a person believes in varna by birth system or not - if at all any one is filled with hatred - he is sure away from god irrespective of any religion he belongs.

 

let god bless the world with peace

 

Radhe Krishna

[Ganeshprasad]

 

Ramanujacharya and Shankaracharya may have promoted casteism, but other enlightened masters have not.

 

Those who feel strongly about human injustices, will not be drawn to a Guru who preaches inequality and teaches our fate is set at birth.

 

Because some have the unfortunate karma of being born in some backward, Indian Village, does not mean we should forget about them. Don't get me wrong, I understand those born in America and the UK have better karma, because they are born into a wealthy nation, where they can be well-educated and pursue their spiritual goals without being held back because of what household they were born in. And I agree Americans and Europeans should be praised for having such good karma, to be born outside of the corrupt caste ridden villages of India. But still, those who have the unfortunate karma of being born into one of the poorest nations of the world (India), in one of their dirt poor villages, should not be forgotten. It is the duty of humanitarians the world over, to fight against the social injustices that go on in India under the guise of religion and traditionalism. If it weren't for this, we might still be seeing indian widows being forced to throw themselves onto funeral pyres when their husbands died.

 

 

Jai Ganesh

Only thing achryas promoted was god realization

Guru is a samdarsi, he teaches to all according to their capabilities.

Sankaracharya says

punarapi jananam punarapi maranam punarapi jananii jathare shayanam iha samsaare bahudustaare kripayaa apaare paahi muraare

In the above verse he warns against perpetual birth and death why would he then prefer any cast?

Our birth is not a random selection or luck of a draw, we are all born in a situation based on our karma.

What is the better karma of the people of the west? It is quite sad how the majority has no time for god, in the pursuit of the opulence the majority fooled by the few works like a donkey and nothing to saw for it at the end of the day. The whole culture is based on sex and drugs.

At least poor Indian in a village even if struggling would welcome you with a smile; (atithi devo bhava)

He blames no one but his own karma for his current position, and it will be his own endeavor that will bring his future, such simple understanding comes from a deep understanding of life.

As to human injustices let us not go there, how the west has brutally raped rest of the world is clear to see.

Jai Shree Krishna

[Guest guest]

 

What is the better karma of the people of the west? It is quite sad how the majority has no time for god, in the pursuit of the opulence the majority fooled by the few works like a donkey and nothing to saw for it at the end of the day.

This is simply not true. I think you only know about the west from Hollywood. This would be like judging indian culture based on Bollywood movies.

Our culture is a mixed bag. We have very religious people, to the wild party crowd. There is every race under the sun, every type under the sun in the USA. It's not possible to broadbrush anyone in the west. There are just too many different types of people here, from extremely conservative, to very liberal.

Our conservative segment, which makes up a large part of our population, strongly opposes most Hollywood movies, drugs, abortion, legalizing gay marriages, etc.. Their values are certainly not based on sex and drugs.

It is quite possible to live a spiritual life in America. We have ashrams in California, New York, etc.. for devotees to go and have spiritual retreat. We now have Hindu temples in every major city. And we have meditation and satsang groups in all major cities. So it is very possible for those who are spiritually inclined to find the path of Dharma in the west.

Agreed. India has been blessed with great knowledge of karma and reincarnation.

It's just within the past 100 yrs that Hindu missionaries and Swamis have come west and started preaching about karma and reincarnation. Now 1 and 4 westerners are said to believe in reincarnation. So the knowledge is spreading west. And many westerners are also coming to understand Karma and reincarnation.

You are right. The west has done many injustices across the globe and in their own lands. Unlike India, we have had huge political and religious infrastructures in place to back these injustices; so even if the common people opposed these injustices, they had no say in the matter.

Don't forget tho.. we have had our fair share of compassionate souls on our soil too, who have fought against injustices. Please read about Abraham Lincoln, Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks etc... these leaders, humanitarians and civil rights activists, went against the tide and changed history to help those who were suffering under human injustices.

It is wrong to judge all westerners for past sins, just like it is wrong to judge all indians for the caste problems. And really, that's the whole point, you can't judge a book by its cover. You can't judge someone based on his/her place of birth, his race, or his background. The caste system in its corrupted form has done just that, and that's why humanitarians fight against these abuses to liberate those who have suffered under them.

Pointing figures at America's injustices does not wipe away India's. No nation is free of human injustices. And it's up for true spiritual leaders to oppose these human injustices wherever they may be found. Whether it's blacks being discriminated against in America, or dalits in India. All need to stand up and say discrimination is evil, wrong.. and has no place in a spiritual person's life.

[vrajavasi]

Radhe Krishna,

 

a very nice message dear western guest. Yes, in every society we have people who are good and people who are bad.

 

But when the element of bad becomes so strong and the element of good becomes so submissive does horrors like holocost takes place. If you have your share of holocost, this region had its share of partition of India.

 

streotyping of people is not correct.

 

humility, benevolence, compassion, love, affection - these noble ideals - whereever they are, they are not to be nurtured and bossted.

 

There were great saints in India who were devotees of lord krishna cutting across caste, colour and even religious barriers.

 

What is important is noble ideals.

 

With that the entire human race progress

 

without that the entire human race perish.

 

Radhe krishna

[Ganeshprasad]

This is simply not true. I think you only know about the west from Hollywood. This would be like judging indian culture based on Bollywood movies.

 

.

[Guest guest]

 

 

Confrontation with an Untouchable

 

 

One scorching day of summer, Shankaracharya and his followers were going to bathe in the river Ganges at the Manikarna ghat. On their way, the party encountered a chandal (keeper of cremation grounds) who is considered the lowest amongst lowest in the hierarchy of Indian castes. Accompanying the outcaste were his four repulsive dogs. Addressing the untouchable, Shankaracharya asked him to move away and make way for them. The hunter then raised some interesting questions:

 

"You are always going about preaching that the Vedas teach the non dual Brahman to be the only reality which is immutable and unpollutable. If this is so how has this sense of difference overtaken you? There are hundreds of yogis going around indulging in high sounding philosophical talk, donning the ochre robe and exhibiting other insignia of holy life like the water pot and staff. But not even a ray of knowledge having found entrance into their hearts, their holy exterior serves only to dupe householders. You have asked me to move aside and make way for you. To whom were your words addressed O learned Sir? To the body which comes from the same source and performs the same functions in the case of both a brahmin (the highest caste) and an outcaste? Or to the atman (soul), which too is the same in all, unaffected by anything material like the body? How do such differences as 'this is a brahmin, or this is an outcaste,' arise in the essentially non-dual world, which is the philosophy you preach. O revered teacher, is the sun changed in the least, if it reflects in the liquor pot or in the holy Ganga? How can you indulge in such false sentiments as 'Being a brahmin I am pure; and you, dog-eater, must therefore give way for me,' when the truth is that the one universal and unblemishable bodiless spirit is shining alike in each of our physical forms. Forgetting, due to false attachment, one's own true nature as the material-less spirit - beyond thoughts and words, unmanifest, beginningless, endless and pure - how indeed have you come to identify yourself with the body which is but unsteady like the ears of an elephant."

 

 

It is believed that the chandala was none other than Lord Shiva in disguise, and the four canines the four Vedas. The sage immediately fell to the feet of the outcaste and composed there a quintad of scintillating verses, called the 'Manishapanchakam,' summing up the absolute truth as follows:

 

From the standpoint of the body, O Shiva, I am thy servant; from the standpoint of the soul, O Thou with three eyes, I become a part of Thine; and O the Self of all, from the standpoint of the Self, I am verily Thou: This is my settled conclusion reached with the help of all shastras.

 

 

Conclusion: If we See All as Shiva, There Can be No Caste DISCRIMINATION! Everyone is looked upon as a reflection of our own Self!

[Guest guest]

 

Sorry my friend my information about the west is not from Hollywood, I live in the west, has done so for the past 36 year. I really do not wish to judge, but if you choose to see the west from rose color glasses so be it.

 

 

I live in the west also and while it has bad aspects it is better than India in some ways. You can see why with all those Indians who work and live in the west do not want to go back to live in India. That fact alone speaks for itself. Plus India isn't as moral as you think, for what it lacks in drugs it makes up with corruption. In every corner of India there is corruption, every where you turn. As for sex, it's not as innocent as you think, if you read the news you'd hear about what teenagers with their camera phones get up to. Let's not forget the many sex scandals, including that one of the swaminrayan sect in Gujarat where some swami's were doing the dirty with some call girls. And these are only what we know of, imagine what we do not know! And it's not just bollywood that is immoral, look at Indian catwalk-fashion as well as pop-music videos, they are trying to compete with the west in terms of vulgarity.

 

 

I do not make any apologies for the system; it is the best as given by Krishna himself.

 

 

And it depends whether or not you are a Hindu who believes Sri Krishna is historical or mythological. It also depends on how you interpret the Gita whether caste is determined by gunas or birth. When I saw the TV vesions of Mahabharata there were places where it clearly stated that caste is determined by gunas and not birth. I think these were in dialogues given by Krishna. Bhishma and Yudhisthira. I personally believe the birth systems is a nonsense system and that is the reason you have so many false brahmins, ksatriyas, etc these days. I think the reason caste-conscious Hindus hold onto the birth-based system is because they want to keep their title, in the hope of holding onto some sort of status in society, that many don't deserve. If they live their life according to their birth-caste then it shouldn't be a problem, but if they do not and still hold onto their caste title, then this is wrong.

 

 

There is this debate that goes on weather birth has any part in establishing the verna system, I do believe it has to, since any birth be it of any circumstance, is based on ones karma of the past.

 

 

True, but a person born into a brahmin family should not be accepted as a brahmin if he posesses none of the qualities of a Brahmin as described in the Gita. A person like Valmiki was an untouchable before gaining enlightenment and composing the Ramayana, but today it is offensive for anyone the call Valmiki an untouchable. This is why I believe people can change due to their actions in this life and not have to wait for the next.

 

 

In this age of Kali the whole system is degraded, it really does not matter, what is important is that one follows Dharma

 

 

I agree. By following dharma is the best and most appropriate way to follow Hinduism in this day and age.

[Guest guest]

Some of India's problems lie in the low self-esteem of many indians, due to them believing the lies of anti-hindus and the enemies of Dharma. India has been raped by Christian missionaries, Muslim invaders, the British imperialists, propaganda from the Russian commies; and worst of all their present liberal, anti-Hindu government.. Many Indians suffer the emotional wounds from all the anti-Indian rhetoric. So these people with no self-esteem practically apologize for being Hindus, and do everything to make themselves as acceptable as they can in western eyes.

 

First what we must do is totally abandon all caste discrimination, and recognize there is no such thing as an untouchable. This is an evil that has plagued India for centuries now. And it's caused Hinduism to look like a religion of bigots. As long as we hold onto caste discrimination, our society will always be crippled from within.

 

Secondly, Indians and non-indians who are Hindus, need to put many of our petty differences aside. We need to especially put aside our differences when dealing in matters of the outer world and how we present Hinduism on the world stage. In our inner circles, we can discuss our disagreements. But in public we need to have each other's back.

 

I have seen Hindus who are quick to blast other Hindus right to ANTI-Hindu Christians and Muslims who want to convert them. They'll start blasting 99% of Hindus, and say things "unlike most Hindus, we don't believe in superstitions and rituals." As if this will make the Christians and Muslims think their religion is ok. The fools don't know their own writings condemn all non-Christians and Muslims, and they would attack Hindus no matter what they do or say.

 

It's time for Indian Hindus and non-Indian Hindus to stand up and be proud of our religion. You'll never meet a Muslim who is ashamed of being Muslim. Nor will you meet a Christian ashamed to be a Christian. They are proud of their religion. And their strong faith attracts people to those religions. Hindus must also be proud that we follow the oldest and greatest religion in the world. We should never be ashamed to be Hindu. Nor should we ever do anything adharmic in the name of Hinduism (eg caste discrimination). Represent the Dharma with character and conviction.

[Guest guest]

from an email list:

 

 

by: His servant

at the lotus feet of shri datta swami

 

Indians, particularly, are sacrificing words through prayers and

feelings through expression of love for the sake of God. When the

question of wealth or money comes they sacrifice it for the sake of

their families only. This is the reason why India suffers with

poverty. Swami Vivekananda wept loudly facing the sky asking; "Why

India with such high spiritual knowledge is suffering with poverty?"

The foreigners are not so well in prayers and expression of love or

meditation compared to Indians but they sacrifice their money for

the sake of God with full vigor. Therefore God blesses the foreign

countries with wealth and prosperity.

 

Indians sacrifice words and mind only to God. Therefore Indians are

blessed with very good pronunciation of language and excellent

knowledge, which are connected to the words and mind. Gita says `Ye

Yatha Mam Prapadyante' which means that God gives you result in the

same way in which you worship Him. If you worship Him with words

(prayers) only He will also appreciate you with sweet words. If you

love Him with your mind and concentrate with meditation, He will

also love you in turn with high concentration of mind. If you

sacrifice practically, He will also do everything to you

practically. Indians must learn this practical sacrifice from

foreigners as they have learnt the science and technology from the

West. Even in the olden days, Indians were always doing exercises in

theoretical knowledge of God and in composing lot of poems on God.

Therefore the same attitude entered even their education of science.

They have become theorists even in science.

 

The foreigners were less theoretical and more practical in spiritual

things and therefore that attitude entered their scientific

education also and the foreigners have become the real practical

scientists. Let Indians not be proud that they are the masters in

the spiritualism if not in science. Though I am born in India, I

deny this. The Indians should follow the foreigners not only in

science but also in spiritualism by learning the practical aspect of

the materialistic as well as divine knowledge.

 

Today, in the world everybody agrees that the real power is the

money only. Money is the fruit of work and Bhagavatgita calls

sacrifice of money "Karma Phala Tyaga". In Bhagavatgita it is

said "Dhyanat Karma Phala Tyagah" which means that devotion is

greater than Knowledge and sacrifice of the fruit of the work

(money) is greater than the devotion. Knowledge consists of

intelligence and words. Devotion consists of mind and words.

Sacrifice consists of heart and love. The proof of the love is the

practical service, which is the practical sacrifice of work or

money. For the propagation of the divine knowledge and devotion the

money is needed to publish the gospel in the form of books. When you

sacrifice your money for the divine work your treasure in the heaven

is built up. This means that God will help you after your death and

you will enter the kingdom of God.

[Guest guest]

 

Some of India's problems lie in the low self-esteem of many indians, due to them believing the lies of anti-hindus and the enemies of Dharma ... First what we must do is totally abandon all caste discrimination ... As long as we hold onto caste discrimination, our society will always be crippled from within.

 

It's time for Indian Hindus and non-Indian Hindus to stand up and be proud of our religion. You'll never meet a Muslim who is ashamed of being Muslim. Nor will you meet a Christian ashamed to be a Christian. They are proud of their religion. And their strong faith attracts people to those religions. Hindus must also be proud that we follow the oldest and greatest religion in the world. We should never be ashamed to be Hindu. Nor should we ever do anything adharmic in the name of Hinduism (eg caste discrimination). Represent the Dharma with character and conviction.

 

Hindus can help out their religion tremendously by learning to uphold their religious traditions in the light of their original or ideal intention. Even if you do not agree with them and want them reformed, try to understand them clearly in their original light.

 

I was discussing this topic (caste) with a Muslim friend a couple of days back. He made a reference during our discussion by marking with his hand in air "four" times to indicate the four castes, except he did it from top to bottom. I at once stopped him and told him to mark it left to right. He told me that he had been taught "high to low", and I told him he was taught wrongly. At the end of our lengthy discussion, he again told me that he was not yet convinced that it was not top to bottom, and I reasserted that it was not and should be left to right (signifying that we are are four groups working for a common purpose), and mentioned jocularly and seriously that it is not necessary for him, a Muslim to throw darts at our religion in this regard, for we Hindus ourselves have become very good at it.

 

I would also suggest that we give up the phrase "caste system" and use "varna dharma". Words have power and if we don't use the proper translation, we should use the original. Think over the difference between the English translation and the Sanskrit original.

 

I often mention the Shankaracharya Sri Chandrashekarendra Saraswathi of the Kamakoti peetam and his views in these matters. He advocated the Varna dharma for the Hindu society. Please read, those interested, the compilation Hindu Dharma (also available online at kamakoti.org Parts 1,2,3,4,20,21,22) to get a clear sense of how the orthodox community views the Varna dharma, its place in our society and its potential.

 

Good Muslims defend the sayings of the Quran by working hard to find the "right" meaning and giving commentaries upon verses that seem revolting and thus bringing them to their "original" light. They will defend their traditions to the last inch by seeing them in favourable terms, whatever be the version in foreign eyes. We alone have become so used to throwing mud upon ourselves.

[Guest guest]

 

I would also suggest that we give up the phrase "caste system" and use "varna dharma". Words have power and if we don't use the proper translation, we should use the original. Think over the difference between the English translation and the Sanskrit original.

 

I agree with you 100%. Hindus should never use the term caste system. The word 'caste' has very negative connotations in the mind of non-Hindus. So we should never use this word. We should use the correct term varna-dharma.

 

We will get nowhere in discussion by trying to defend the 'caste system'. Rather, we should correctly explain the purpose and vision behind the original varna-dharma system, which was never meant to hold people back, and was meant to help society function.

[Guest guest]

 

Hindus can help out their religion tremendously by learning to uphold their religious traditions in the light of their original or ideal intention. Even if you do not agree with them and want them reformed, try to understand them clearly in their original light.

 

 

Caste or Varna ashrama can be understood in the original light. As a matter of fact it makes more sense in the original light, when it was NOT hereditary and was more like unions. In this modern world this is the perfect time to reform caste or varna as it originally was in the early vedic age. Why force a boy born into a family of Brahmins, who wants to make money and is an atheist to be a Brahmin? Why not accept those who have the qualities and mindset of a Brahmin as a Brahmin? The hereditary caste system can never be true as two brothers can be totally different to each other despite coming for the same parents and caste background. Those who still argue for it are just shooting themselves in the foot.

 

 

I was discussing this topic (caste) with a Muslim friend a couple of days back. He made a reference during our discussion by marking with his hand in air "four" times to indicate the four castes, except he did it from top to bottom. I at once stopped him and told him to mark it left to right. He told me that he had been taught "high to low", and I told him he was taught wrongly. At the end of our lengthy discussion, he again told me that he was not yet convinced that it was not top to bottom, and I reasserted that it was not and should be left to right (signifying that we are are four groups working for a common purpose), and mentioned jocularly and seriously that it is not necessary for him, a Muslim to throw darts at our religion in this regard, for we Hindus ourselves have become very good at it.

 

 

Your muslim friend was right not to be convinced as there are many Hindus who see caste as top to bottom - you have to deal with them first before you deal with muslims. He will continue to throw darts at Hinduism, since his religion encourages him to do so.

 

 

I often mention the Shankaracharya Sri Chandrashekarendra Saraswathi of the Kamakoti peetam and his views in these matters. He advocated the Varna dharma for the Hindu society. Please read, those interested, the compilation Hindu Dharma (also available online at kamakoti.org Parts 1,2,3,4,20,21,22) to get a clear sense of how the orthodox community views the Varna dharma, its place in our society and its potential.

 

 

The 'orthodox' community isn't the only community. The 'orthodox' wants everyone to follow their way yet has little regard for what others have to say. It is because they want to remain at the 'top' of society (not, left to right). I've read his articles and while most of them are good, I totally disagree with his stance on the varna system. What I do not agree with is suggesting that those born into their caste should only follow their family tradition and cannot change in this life. This is such backwards thinking. But then again, not all Hindu sects agree with each other, so he only speaks for his group of followers, not for the entire Hindu community. While there are some Hindu sects that follow varna by birth only, there are others that do not.

 

 

Good Muslims defend the sayings of the Quran by working hard to find the "right" meaning and giving commentaries upon verses that seem revolting and thus bringing them to their "original" light. They will defend their traditions to the last inch by seeing them in favourable terms, whatever be the version in foreign eyes. We alone have become so used to throwing mud upon ourselves.

 

 

That is why they have a warped thinking. That is why they hate others and cannot see outside "the box". The so-called "good" muslims, simply make excuses to defend some of the sayings of the quran. Whereas Hindus are far more rational and can adapt to changing circumstances. If we disagree with something we can debate it and reject it. Hinduism has always been an ever-reforming religion since from the beginning. What is unsuitable or irrelevant for this day and age we will drop. Things like Sati, ashwamedha yajna and animal sacrifices were dropped. We have thrown mud upon ourselves because there is mud to be thrown. That is how we have survived for so many thousands of years while all other ancient religions have died out or were wiped out. It is because we have adapted. The death of the birth-based caste system is a natural progression that was destined to happen and Hinduism can perfectly survive without it.

[Guest guest]

 

Your muslim friend was right not to be convinced as there are many Hindus who see caste as top to bottom - you have to deal with them first before you deal with muslims. He will continue to throw darts at Hinduism, since his religion encourages him to do so.

 

How can I deal with them? I can tell them "I do not see it in that manner", I can tell them to read people like the Shankaracharya who did not see it in that manner, though they support the birth system. I can try and live according to the ideals of the ideal varna dharma in my life. Beyond this, I cannot convince them otherwise if they keep saying that I want to remain at the top.

 

The Varna system should be looked upon as division in work, rather than division in spiritual level. To belong to the Brahmin varna means you are supposed to partake in a certain class of works for society. The same is true for the other varnas and their works should be considered just as important. Self control, austerity, simplicity, devotion to God/Truth and spiritual life can be the common aims of members of any Varna; if you think it was not so before, then modify the system along these lines.

 

I have no problem if those who advocated that all can become the Brahmin also mention that the work of the Brahmin must be carried out in full (after seeing what it is). This is what the same Shankaracharya is demanding out of the Brahmin community. Of course, we are failing in this but that is not the reason to suggest that we all scrap it, but rather to figure out ways of doing it properly.

 

A society based on competition at the level of work will be stifled at that level.

 

I see the society of today, and I see this problem. I can sense that the ideal Varna dharma (birth-based, for otherwise the system will naturally recollapse) overcame this problem, and my feeling I find is supported by the statements of the Shankaracharya. Figure out how to minimize competition at the level of work, making the effort in work become Karma Yoga (a fight for survival sense will make this next to impossible for most, unless they are already jnanis) for one and all, and allow all the opportunity to direct their energies in the spiritual direction. These are among the aspirations of the Varna-dharma system. (P.S. remember the spiritual/religious ideal is the driving force and not the atheism and blank talk of equality). Think out a way you or other no-birth varna supporters can achieve this for the society in a large scale and see if you can implement this in small scale in your own family. If you cannot, then don't be so quick to condemn the Varna-dharma system (birthbased, for otherwise it would likely not go far, and besides it is what we have in some working fashion now), but rather try as I am trying to give it new life by cleaning off the dirt while retaining its essential working structure. If you can, then bring about such a constructive approach to work in a larger setting> be constructive with the aspirations and not destructive: what is lost may be more valuable than we can presently assess.

 

"Hinduism can survive perfectly without it" if and only if the social and work system can be rooted in religious aspiration and not competition. The Varna system must be held in the birthbased manner till we find such an alternative, and those who can must make the effort to bring this one system that had achieved these ends back into proper shape. (We are much closer to this end than those who want to root it out entirely).

[Guest guest]

 

How can I deal with them? I can tell them "I do not see it in that manner", I can tell them to read people like the Shankaracharya who did not see it in that manner, though they support the birth system. I can try and live according to the ideals of the ideal varna dharma in my life. Beyond this, I cannot convince them otherwise if they keep saying that I want to remain at the top.

 

 

You have to tell them that they should read not just shankaracharya, but many of the Hindu gurus and what they taught on the true varna-ashrama dharma. If they do not want to even read, then they will remain ignorant. But most of the gurus I have come across don't support the birth system but are not against those born into castes to follow their tradition if they so want to.

The problem is some members of the Hindu society who believe they are born superior to others and they have the right to discriminate againt lower castes. Some of these people are not religious at all but follow caste system more than they follow Hinduism.

 

 

The Varna system should be looked upon as division in work, rather than division in spiritual level. To belong to the Brahmin varna means you are supposed to partake in a certain class of works for society. The same is true for the other varnas and their works should be considered just as important. Self control, austerity, simplicity, devotion to God/Truth and spiritual life can be the common aims of members of any Varna; if you think it was not so before, then modify the system along these lines.

 

 

It is true that brahmins have a role in society that requires alot of responsibility. This involves performing many rituals for society. But I see the Hindu community is moving away from this ritualistic life and demand for priests is less. Also many born as brahmins have decided to move away from this life and live materialistically. How is the brahmin community going to deal with this as it would pose problems for the future?

 

The reason the varna system is looked upon as due to spiritual level is because some believe that the caste you are born into is due to your actions in the previous life. So if you were spiritual you are born as a brahmin, if you are not and did wrong you are born as a shudra or untouchable. A Brahmin is supposedly more spiritual than other caste, hence closer to god - ie. higher than the others. I think Manu smriti talks about the Brahmin coming from the head, the ksatriyas from the chest, the vaishyas from the thighs and the shudras from the feet. That shows what part of the body the varnas should be classified. This is where the high and low idea comes from.

 

I wonder why were Shudras denied access to the Vedas when Brahmins would teach the other two 'twice-born' castes? What was the reason? And why pour molten lead into the ears of a shudra if he hears vedic mantras? why not explain to the shudra why he is not allowed to hear vedic mantras?There is no proper reason for this. This is pure discrimination. The fault of this system is it degraded an entire community to be servants even when members of the shudra and untouchables could have been successful and even better at doing another jobs. Since untouchability was banned this has been proven. You have those from the lower caste becoming successful doctors, engineers, etc.

 

 

I have no problem if those who advocated that all can become the Brahmin also mention that the work of the Brahmin must be carried out in full (after seeing what it is). This is what the same Shankaracharya is demanding out of the Brahmin community. Of course, we are failing in this but that is not the reason to suggest that we all scrap it, but rather to figure out ways of doing it properly.

I see the society of today, and I see this problem. I can sense that the ideal Varna dharma (birth-based, for otherwise the system will naturally recollapse) overcame this problem, and my feeling I find is supported by the statements of the Shankaracharya. Figure out how to minimize competition at the level of work, making the effort in work become Karma Yoga (a fight for survival sense will make this next to impossible for most, unless they are already jnanis) for one and all, and allow all the opportunity to direct their energies in the spiritual direction. These are among the aspirations of the Varna-dharma system. (P.S. remember the spiritual/religious ideal is the driving force and not the atheism and blank talk of equality). Think out a way you or other no-birth varna supporters can achieve this for the society in a large scale and see if you can implement this in small scale in your own family. If you cannot, then don't be so quick to condemn the Varna-dharma system (birthbased, for otherwise it would likely not go far, and besides it is what we have in some working fashion now), but rather try as I am trying to give it new life by cleaning off the dirt while retaining its essential working structure.

 

 

In all other religions - Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, etc. A person can become the priest of those religions provided he is interested, dedicated and is of that mindset. It's not easy to become a priest as a council has to agree that the person is the right person for the job. They all have strong societies and this is because of this freedom to follow whatever job you are suited too, not birth based system. Why can we not have this for Hinduism? If you see Hinduism as a world religion and not an India-only religion you will see the need for this to happen.

 

In other countries where Hindus have left India over 100 years ago such as Fiji, Mauritiaus, West Indies, South Africa, etc, the herditary caste system is in terrible decline and due to circumstances these Hindu communities have had to inter-marry with Hindus of different castes in order to preserve their heritage (for example a certain caste may be less percentage-wise compared to others). They are still Hindus and there is still a small minority of 100% born Brahmins but some of the duties of the traditional Brahmins have to be carried out by those of other castes. You find that due to their circumstances, in order to carry on as Hindus they have to accept those not born as Brahmins as priests, provided they can live the life of one. This is going to be the case for Hindus in the west sooner or later as well as Hindus living in cities in modern India.

[Guest guest]

 

You have to tell them that they should read not just shankaracharya, but many of the Hindu gurus and what they taught on the true varna-ashrama dharma. If they do not want to even read, then they will remain ignorant. But most of the gurus I have come across don't support the birth system but are not against those born into castes to follow their tradition if they so want to.

The problem is some members of the Hindu society who believe they are born superior to others and they have the right to discriminate againt lower castes. Some of these people are not religious at all but follow caste system more than they follow Hinduism.

 

The person who thinks of the varna system in terms of high and low or as discriminatory in its intention has made a hurtful presumption to begin with; I support the Shankaracharya's views mainly because he wanted to see the system from the positive side and saw it as a potential tool to nourish society and individual. If the other gurus who do not support the birth system are able to assess it without implying an underlying tone of intended discrimination, I am all willing to listen to their reasoning. If they are also basing their views on such a presumption, then I cannot listen to them or suggest that others listen to them, for their views are coloured with messed up ideas plaguing the entire society.

 

If the Brahmin holds high/low idea based on birth or past karma or whatever, then that Brahmin is wrong and evident disgrace for the entire community. Yes there are many like that and such notions have entered deep into the psyche of many. That is why again it pays to read the Gurus of such Brahmins themselves, for there it is clear that these Brahmins are denounced for these and several other flaws. I quote the acharya below.

 

 

The Brahmin for whom it is obligatory to observe fasts and vows and to perform various rites was now seen to be no different from others. Office and college timings were a hindrance to the carrying out of these rites. So the Brahmin threw them to the winds. He had so far taken care to perform these rites with the good of others in mind. Like a trustee, he had protected dharma for the sake of society and made its fruits available to all.

 

All that belonged to the past. Now the Brahmin came forward proclaiming that all were equal and that he was one with the rest. All the same he became the cause of heart-burning among others and -ironically enough- in becoming one with them he also competed with them for jobs. That apart, though he talked of equality, he still thought himself to be superior to others, in spite of the fact that he was not a bit more careful than they about the performance of religious duties. Was this not enough to earn him more hatred?

 

The Brahmin spoiled himself and spoiled others. By abandoning his dharma he became a bad example to others. as a matter of fact, even by strictly adhering to his dharma the Brahmin in not entitled to feel superior to others. He must always remain humble in the belief that "everyone performs a function in society; I perform mine". If at all others respected him in the past and accorded him a high place in the society it was in consideration of his selfless work, his life of austerity a, discipline and purity. Now he had descended too such depths as to merit their most abrasive criticism.

 

 

 

This also is the answer to your quotes from Manusmriti; we should not get caught with singular quotes (some possible future interpolations by insecure communities). The Brahmin who uses such quotations to support high/low ideas is making a mistake, and the Shankaracharya is quite clear about this. The attitude of work stated by the Acharya for the Brahmin is equally applicable to any other varna.

 

 

 

 

if he hears vedic mantras? why not explain to the shudra why he is not allowed to hear vedic mantras?There is no proper reason for this. This is pure discrimination.

 

 

Learning, practicing, reciting and teaching the Vedas is a life-time vocation which the Brahmin boy starts at age 8 in his Guru's home. It is not to be done in a bits and pieces fashion, and the people doing it must live the entire life as per the Shastras. (Our shastras are perhaps more demanding in this regard). The Brahmin's work is the least materialistically rewarding to himself or to society; it has the intangible factor that is essential for our society and hence society makes an investment in the Vedas and Brahminhood. The sages did not see it necessary for one and all to be running after such a work (IT IS WORK, and not a claim to spirituality) and hence kept the Brahmin community as safe-guardians of this work.

 

As far as spirituality is concerned, the shudras had access to the puranas, gita, and other scriptures, from which the essence of religious thought can be gleaned. The Brahmins no doubt had the job of maintaining high standard here as well, however spiritual ambitions are not denied from anyone. That is why we have sages from all varnas. Again remember the Vedas were passed from mouth to ear, in a guru-kula system. There were severe constraints placed on resources that were likely to affect certain decisions made.

 

In today's context with books and tape recorders, several of these rules can naturally be relaxed. I am sure anyone with money can buy casettes containing vedic chant, and no one is searching for these people with molten lead. But I will assure you that ( my intention, possibly barring one or two special rites) unless and until I live my entire life according to the Brahmin's code in the Shastras, I WILL NOT DARE learn the deeper Vedic recitations for my past time and feeling good about myself. All the scriptures are there for me for my religious and spiritual growth, but the Vedic work is for one who abides by the code to the letter (or as close as feasible). For instance, a Brahmachari or widower cannot perform yagnyas (sacrifices). It does not matter what your lineage, and no Brahmin without wife by his side will dare to do these against the Shastras. It is not a question of discrimination but abidance to the Law set by the sages for the welfare of society. If we cannot see them in the right light, then naturally things fall apart.

[Guest guest]

This is a perfect example of an unqualified brahmin:

 

from:forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=messageboard.viewThread&entryID=6397744&groupID=100056083&adTopicID=27&Mytoken=75CA151C-E08C-BC14-33878B1D52956CD832848644

 

 

A 17 yr. old Hindu Brahmin writes:

ok i believe i should express my mind. in the western world today, many people are joining difrrent religions. ok no problem to that. many have been joining hinduism, well its quiet contradicting to the caste system if u ask me. but however krishma bhagwan says in the gita ints dangerous when u leave your dharma and join anoither dharma. "protect your dharma and your dharma will protect u." many of converts feel they join hare rama hare krishna, that they become a hindu. YOU DONT! as Shivite said its a cult, its not religion. you must stick with your religion no matter what. in the hanuman chalisa it says "ant kaal raghubar pur jaahi, jahan janama hari bhakta khaai." if yo devote your self to hanuman, when u die u will go to raghubar which is heavan,a nd the lord will pick a home for u to become born as a bhakta.(devotee. the lord picks a home for u to be born in, from which your credentials are qualified. if the lord didnt pick a hindu home for u to be born into, then u shudnt join hinduism. its simple gyaan to understand. but ignornace can destryop someones way of thinking. and make them dumbfounded. jai bhagawan

 

He can't even speak proper english, yet he is a Hindu leader and pundit?

 

a 17 yr old brahmin telling westerners they can't be Hindu, and that they have to stick with their birth religions even if they no longer believe in them?! What is this?

 

I was born in a Christian house, but I do not have Christian beliefs. I do not believe Jesus Christ is the way to heaven. I do not believe that non-christians will be damned to an eternal hell. I do not believe that Jesus died to save me from my sins and the wrath of Satan (a being I don't believe in). So therefore I AM NOT a Christian. Yet, some brahmin punk tells me I have to continue to be a Christian even though my beliefs are Hindu? Thank goodness my Guru knows better and I have been accepted into Sanatana Dharma.. but it's foolish brahmins like this that give brahmins a bad name.

[Guest guest]

 

a 17 yr old brahmin telling westerners they can't be Hindu, and that they have to stick with their birth religions even if they no longer believe in them?! What is this?

 

 

That is the sort of people we have to deal with. He probably learnt this prejudice from his father. Brahmins are supposed to be intelligent, yet I've come across some like this, who lack basic intelligence and can't even see Hinduism as a universal religion. The teachings of Hinduism are relevant for the whole world, not just Indians. If people believe in Hinduism then they would see that you can be reborn anywhere in the world, in any community, so therefore Hinduism should be spread all over the world to give you the right knowledge. Many westerners may have been Hindus in their previous life. Many Indians will be westerners in their next life. There's more of a chance that an Indian Hindu will be reborn as a non-Hindu, non-Indian, in the world in their next life than being reborn as a Hindu.

By Brahmins telling those of other religions to follow their birth religions, they are really saying to embrace beliefs that are against Hinduism, such as the belief that Hindus are ignorant sinners who would burn in hell for eternity. Then these same Brahmins complain about conversions in India!

 

But what this prejudice some Brahims have, really boils down to, is fear. Fear that westerners would know more about Hinduism than them, fear that they can't answer questions given by westerners, fear that westerners may become better practitioners of Hinduism than Indians, fear that their position in society is threatened. When they are challenged, they cannot stand it.

 

I knew a westerner who was initially attracted to Buddhism, but then came towards Hinduism, disagreeing with Buddhist ideas of no soul and no God. The teachings about God in Hinduism goes much deeper than those covered in other religions and are very ancient. It's clear to see why people would be attracted to Hinduism.

 

Every ancient and in the case of Japan, Medievel society had a caste system. The Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, etc all had a caste system where people only married within their castes. These societies may have adopted different religions and have modernised, but the people survived and adapted to change. This is going to happen in India too as it's just a logical progression. By accepting non-born Brahmins as priests is just the next step of evolution of Hindu society. Hinduism will survive but change form as it always has. The Hinduism of today is different from the Hinduism of 2000+ years ago, but the principals and techings are the same.

[Guest guest]

"The wisdom garnered by India, the eldest brother among the nations, is a heritage to all mankind. Vedic truths, as all truths, belongs to the Lord and not to India. The rishis, whose minds were pure receptacles ro receive the divine profundities of the Vedas, were members of the human race, born on this earth, rather than on some other, to serve humanity as a whole. Distinction by race or nation are meaningless in the realm of truth, where the only qualification is spiritual fitness to receive."

 

~ Paramahansa Yogananda