Is there such a thing as an inexcusable offense?

[Guest guest]

Devotee: I have a family member who was initiated by a guru who left ISKCON

to go with a Maharaja outside.

 

Gour Govinda Swami: One who left Prabhupada and went there, has committed a

great offense, an inexcusable offense at the lotus feet of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Devotee: This guru got reinitiated, he has a different name now.

 

Gour Govinda Swami: That means he belittled Prabhupada. Left Prabhupada,

saying he is not a bona fide guru. That means he has committed a great

offense, an inexcusable offense. Will this Maharaja excuse his offense?

Krishna cannot, do you understand? Hari-sthane aparadhe tare hari-nama, toma

sthane aparadhe nahi paritrana If you commit an offense at the lotus feet of

Hari, hari-nama will deliver you. If you commit aparadha at the lotus feet

of a pure vaishnava, Hari cannot help you, nobody can help you. He may be

reinitiated, but that is only a farce, nothing else. Who will excuse him of

his offense? No, he cannot be excused.

 

Devotee: Excuse can only come from the person whom you have offended.

 

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes! We give one example. If a thorn is pierced through

the heel, can it be gotten out by the shoulder? In Bhakti-sandarbha Jiva

Gosvami has given this example, it is not mine. I follow the previous

acaryas. If a thorn is pierced through the heel, it cannot be gotten out

through the shoulder. It can only come out through the heel. The way he has

gotten it, do you understand? Jiva Gosvami has also quoted, bhumau

skhalit-padanam bhumir evavalambanam-if your feet have slipped on this

ground, only this ground will give you shelter, no other ground. Jiva

Gosvami has explained these things. How will this Maharaja deliver him? No,

this is only cheating, nothing else. And another vaishnava process is there:

If you want to go to another guru to have something else or some higher

teaching, get permission from the guru you have accepted. If he gives his

blessing and you go, then there is no offense. Then you'll make advancement.

But without permission, if you deviate, you commit a great blunder, a great

offense, which is inexcusable.

 

- Darsan in San Diego, California, 23 Jun 1992. Printed in Chapter 7 of

"Pariprasna, The Process of Inquiry"

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna!

 

All glories to Srila Prabhupada! I offer my humble obeisance unto him!

 

vow...this is deep. Gour Govinda Maharaj is very categorical in his statements.

 

But, what if the devotee who left did it out of ignorance or innocence and not out of disrespect??

 

In other words, his intent is not to offend but just get inspiration from someone else and so he did not follow proper etiqutte....

 

Haribol!

 

anand

[Gaea]

 

But, what if the devotee who left did it out of ignorance or innocence and not out of disrespect??

anand

 

i've done that many times. I hope never to again regardless of what happens. If even God can't save you, what's the point of anything?!

[Puru_Das]

Without more specifics(names, time frame etc) SGGM's remarks are left entirely out of context. Such incomplete information makes the false impression that SGGM was a sectarian thinker, which he was not. The iskcon gbc was making preparations to eject him from the iskcon institution because he was simply too Krsna Conscious and too rasika for their taste By Krsna's divine plan, SGGM left the planet before they could eject him Had he stayed with us longer he would have been forced to more openly oppose them, both philosophically and organizationally. He had read Jaiva Dharma and many other Vaisnava granthas (commentaries) in their original languages and knew that the gbc "position" on the fall of the jiva,guru tattva, sadhu-sanga, nama tattva and many other established truths of our sampradaya were innacurate

 

The fact is that Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja accepted a siksa guru from outside of iskcon, after Srila Prabhupada's maha samadhi. He took the kind association of one of Srila Prabhupada's babaji sannyasa god brothers, and even took his disciples with him when he went to visit him. Unfortunately I don't know his name, but can try to find out with a little research.

[Kulapavana]

Gour Govinda Swami: "One who left Prabhupada and went there, has committed a

great offense, an inexcusable offense at the lotus feet of Srila Prabhupada"

 

 

one could say that Srila Prabhupada was far more forgiving than many of his disciples.

[stonehearted]

I think it's also very likely that the devotee speaking is mischaracterizing the "outside guru," as implied by Puru's post. There were good reasons some of my godbrothers preached "outside ISKCON." Many were pushed out, and many were simply kicked out because they found one of Srila Prabhupada's dear Godbrothers more inspiring association than those GBC members who gave them an ultimatum to choose between themselves and a clearly more-advanced vaishnava.

[Puru_Das]

Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja's remarks certainly appear to be aimed at a disciple who rejected Srila Prabhupada directly during his nara lila, a guru tyagi, and not anyone who sought Vaisnava association or a siksa guru outside of iskcon post samadhi, after l977 . SGGM is quoted to say:

 

"That means he belittled Prabhupada. Left Prabhupada,saying he is not a bona fide guru. That means he has committed a great offense, an inexcusable offense. . . ."

 

That is why I said we really need to see all the specifics, names and dates etc Otherwise how are we to fully understand what principle SGGM is discussing? Seems pretty clear that SGGM is talking about the mentality of a guru tyagi, one who rejects a bona fide spiritual master. Names of such individuals are unecessary to repeat.

 

We know that there were some initiated disciples who rejected His Divine Grace, and went to other lineages for instructions. These same persons also rejected the "legitimacy" of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura and opted to follow the "traditional" followers of SCM. Some of them are active on the inernet and you can go here

http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/index.php?showforum=67

to examine their perpective if you have any interest.

 

They should not be confused with disciples of His Divine Grace who left institutional iskcon for association from other bona fide followers of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, like Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaja or other bona fide acaryas in the guru parampara.from Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura through SBSST.

[Guest guest]

 

Devotee: I have a family member who was initiated by a guru who left ISKCON

to go with a Maharaja outside.

 

Gour Govinda Swami: One who left Prabhupada and went there, has committed a

great offense, an inexcusable offense at the lotus feet of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Devotee: This guru got reinitiated, he has a different name now.

 

The "guru who left ISKCON to go with a Maharaja outside" was Panca Dravida Swami, whose name was changed to Bhakti Pavan Janardan Maharaj by Srila Sridhar Maharaj.

 

Janardan Maharaj factually told Srila Sridhar Maharaj, "I have fallen down from my sannyasa". Srila Sridhar Maharaj asked him, "What have you done?" Janardan Maharaj replied, "I have been a member of the ISKCON GBC, which has committed so many offences".

 

This was at the time when the "ISKCON zonal acarya" system was in force.

 

There were numerous times when Gour Govinda Swami criticized his Godbrothers or second generation ISKCON devotees who went to take shelter of Srila Sridhar Maharaj. Other statements such as this one by Gour Govinda Swami can be found here and there if you search the internet.

 

Anadi Krishna das Prabhu, the leader of Srila Sridhar Maharaj's mission in Australia and New Zealand, is an initiated disciple of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. In 1990 Anadi Krishna went to see Gour Govinda Swami when he was visiting Australia. At that time Gour Govinda Swami said many critical things, criticizing Srila Sridhar Maharaj and the devotees from ISKCON who went to him. Anadi Krishna das then stood up and walked out, turning his back on Gour Govinda Swami.

[Puru_Das]

 

The "guru who left ISKCON to go with a Maharaja outside" was Panca Dravida Swami, whose name was changed to Bhakti Pavan Janardan Maharaj by Srila Sridhar Maharaj.

 

Janardan Maharaj factually told Srila Sridhar Maharaj, "I have fallen down from my sannyasa". Srila Sridhar Maharaj asked him, "What have you done?" Janardan Maharaj replied, "I have been a member of the ISKCON GBC, which has committed so many offences".

 

This was at the time when the "ISKCON zonal acarya" system was in force.

 

There were numerous times when Gour Govinda Swami criticized his Godbrothers or second generation ISKCON devotees who went to take shelter of Srila Sridhar Maharaj. Other statements such as this one by Gour Govinda Swami can be found here and there if you search the internet.

 

Anadi Krishna das Prabhu, the leader of Srila Sridhar Maharaj's mission in Australia and New Zealand, is an initiated disciple of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. In 1990 Anadi Krishna went to see Gour Govinda Swami when he was visiting Australia. At that time Gour Govinda Swami said many critical things, criticizing Srila Sridhar Maharaj and the devotees from ISKCON who went to him. Anadi Krishna das then stood up and walked out, turning his back on Gour Govinda Swami.

 

I'd like to hear the tape or see the transcripts of such alleged conversations And also who are YOU? An anonymous source of information from where? Here or there from the internet doesn't seem too credible. There are some present day followers of SGGM who would like us to believe he supported the institution above and beyond our siddhanta That is not true either;neither is it true that His Divine Grace institutionalized Gaudiya Vaisnavism when he started his iskcon mission

 

 

What you allege sounds entirely out of character for someone as Krsna Conscious as SGGM, and implicates him in zonal acarya consciousness and accuses him of Vaisnava Aparadha. I don't believe he was either a victim or adherant of iskcon gbc policies. He cooperated with them, externally, to some extent, for keeping peace in SP's mission. As far as I read in his lectures and books he was against criticising Vaisnavas. Read his last public lecture:

http://bvml.org/SGGM/aswe.htm

an exceprt:

Vaisnava aparadha

 

So who are offenders? Skanda Purana states that there are six types of offenders and they all fall down and go to raurava, naraka (hell).

 

 

 

nindam kurvanti ye mudha

 

 

 

 

vaisnavanam mahatmanam

 

patanti pitrbhih sardham

 

maharaurava-samjnite

hanti nindati vai dvesthi

vaisnavan-nabhi-nandati

krudhyate yati na harsam

krudhyate yati na harsam

darsane patanani sat

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Skanda Purana says, nindam kurvanti ye mudha vaisnavanam mahatmanam --- those who blaspheme a mahatma Vaisnava, they are great offenders. Patanti pitrbhih sardham maharaurava-samhnite - they definitely go to maha-raurava, naraka. Not only them, but pitrbhih (all his ancestors also). The six types of offenders are: those who try to kill a Vaisnava; those who blaspheme a Vaisnava; those who upon seeing a Vaisnava do not pay pranama, obeisances, those who become angry with a Vaisnava; those who develop enmity with a Vaisnava; and those who upon seeing a Vaisnava do not become jolly, but instead curve their faces, "Oh who is he!" They are offenders. Here Prabhupada says, "Instead of being envious of a more qualified man, one should be jolly to receive him." Instead of becoming jolly, such a person becomes envious and covers his face. He is an offender. These six types of offenders fall down to maha-raurava, naraka.

[Guest guest]

August 20, 1999 VNN4547 Comment on this story

 

Srila Gour Govinda Maharaj : "They Should Not Leave Iskcon"

====================================================

 

The following is an excerpt from an arrival lecture given in 1992 in Bhubaneswar India by His Holiness Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja.

 

..." Next thing, this Sacinandana Swami in Heidelberg, Germany, he asked me, "Maharaja, why have you come ? What is the purpose of your coming now ? You have so much bodily problem, you cannot move freely. So much thing I could notice. Still you are doing alot of touring, travelling and preaching. What is your purpose ?" He asked me. I said, " Maharaja, I have dedicated my life, my body, my mind, my speech, everything I've dedicated for the service of Guru and Gauranga and my revered spiritual master, Srimad A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Maharaja has founded this International Society for Krsna Consciousness, like his life, his body. He is getting so much pain now, I could feel so. After his disappearance, many left, so- called sannyasis, leaders, those who have joined the other camp, Sridhara Maharaja camp and some other camp and they are now criticising ISKCON, criticising Srila Prabhupada, committing such great offense they couldn't understand, and they must get punishment for it, definitely. But what they say, it is intolerable on my part, intolerable, especially in Rome.

 

They showed me that booklet they are publishing, Sadjana Tosani, and they have put the name of my guru maharaja there, Srimad A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, then Bhaktiraksa Sridhara, then Govinda maharaj. Why have they put the name of my guru maharaja ?

 

Devotee: It's cheating.

 

Gour Govinda maharaja: Cheating, yes they are cheating. You are publishing your booklet, then you'll put your name. But the photo of my guru maharaja, "Guru maharaja said" articles they have printed there and telling these ISKCON devotees that Bhaktivedanta Swami taught, gave only elementary knowledge, A B C. He has not given any higher Vaisnava philosophy, education.

 

Now, after Bhaktiraksita Sridhara maharaja, Govinda maharaja is keeping it up, "please come and join." So they are just tricking and stealing the men of ISKCON. And that is intolerable, very painful. I got such a shock in my heart. These fools, who are going there. They are fools !

 

===============

[Puru_Das]

this Vnn article was posted by Rasikananda prabhu. Read in its entirety. Try to understand the perspective of the person offering the excerpts.

http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET9908/ET20-4547.html

 

One direct responce to his article is posted here:

Iskcon And Non-Iskcon

by Jagadisa Pandit Dasa

 

It is easy enough to see that SGGM was concerned that iskcon should not disintegrate. Even in the letters he doesn't reject sadhu sanga, or criticise Srila Sridhar Mahraja. He was clearly pained by criticisms of His Divine Grace and saddened that anyone felt impelled to leave iskcon.

 

You can also read at the end of the VNN article that Rasikananda can't quite believe that SGGM visited Srila B.V. Narayana Maharaja in Puri. You can read the other perspective on that issue here:

 

Srila Gour Govinda Maharaj And Srila Narayan Maharaj

by Giridhari Das

Srila Gour Govinda Maharaj Did Meet Srila B.V. Narayan Maharaj

by Giridhari Das

 

I question the reliability and slant of the material posted by Rasikananda . And who are you? and what good do you hope to accomplish by trying to establish that SGGM was offensive to senior Vaisnavas. I don't believe it.

But I do believe you have some hidden motive in dragging up old controversies.

[Guest guest]

Puru das,

 

Gour Govinda Swami said that people who went to stay with Srila Sridhar Maharaj were "fools" and that they had committed "an inexcusable offense at the lotus feet of Srila Prabhupada".

 

You say he didn't "criticise Srila Sridhar Mahraja".

 

If he says someone the devotees who went to Srila Sridhar Mahraja are fools then that is clearly a criticism of Srila Sridhar Maharaj. There is no other way of reading it.

 

Bharatacandra das (ACBSP).

[Puru_Das]

Read what Rasikananda says SGGM said as you will. His material is suspect. It is crystal clear that his motive in offering that VNN article was clearly to discourage sincere devotees from taking sadhu-sanga outside of iskcon.Why do you believe him. Did you bother to read Jagadish Pandit's responce? Looks to me that Rasikananda was making the offense to SBRSM by misrepresenting his spiritual master's mood and likely distorting his words Can we find a tape to verify Rasikananda's account, otherwise why should we accept it?

 

Why you feel so impelled to commit Vaisnava aparadha in the name of exposing the same is another mystery. BTW when were you initiated and where?

[Guest guest]

BTW Puru dasa,

 

This discussion was not started by me. I wrote that post about Janardan Maharaj and Anadi Krishna. I know them both very well. That is all.

[Puru_Das]

The excerpt from Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja's Bhubaneswara lecture is dated l992. Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaja entered maha samadhi on August 12th, 1988

 

SGGM was unhappy with the use of His Divine Grace Srila A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada's picture appearing in a publication printed by some of Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Dev-Goswami Maharaj's disciples. He felt they were using his diksa guru's picture in an effort to recruit devotees from iskcon's ranks. He was unhappy about anyone who:

 

". . . are now criticising ISKCON, criticising Srila Prabhupada, committing such great offense. "

 

Why conclude that SGGM was committing aparadha when he is actually concerned about those who were doing exactly that?

 

In the other excerpt posted by Rasikananda, the devotee asked SGGM about someone who left iskcon to be "reinitiated." Was that question an accurate description of Sripad Janaradana Maharaja's behavior.? He took a sannyasa name from SBRSM,and siksa from him, in a similar way that some other iskcon sannyasis also did. Have any of them ever "rejected" their diksa guru. I don't believe they would agree that is the case. The question may have been pointing to the actions of an individual, but seems to me SGGM's answer was directed at the princple of guru tyagi and not at any individual. He said: " That means he belittled Prabhupada. Left Prabhupada,saying he is not a bona fide guru. That means he has committed a great offense, an inexcusable offense. . . " The inexcusable offense SGGM is pointing to is applicable only to someone who did that, "belittled Prabhupada and left saying he was not bona fide. . ." We know the names of two such individuals who did exactly that, also rejected SBSST and turned to the babaji camp and continue to preach on their behalf today.

 

SP often answered questions this way, almost ignoring the direct inquiry and only speaking in a way to benefit the listener with a deeper answer than the question even asked,or to address another point altogether

 

 

"It may be noted that Srila Gour Govinda Swami also had a siksa guru in the Gaudiya Matha, whose name was Bhakti Charan das Babaji Maharaja, from the Kendrapura Gaudiya Matha. Gurudeva would visit him sometimes, and sometimes his siksa guru would visit him. Beside this, he had another close friend from the Gaudiya Matha named Sriniketan Maharaja, who would sometimes come and stay in our Iskcon temple. "Does that mean my Guru also left Iskcon (according to Rasikananda.)?" Dear readers please try and understand that leaving Iskcon means giving up Krsna and chanting and instead engaging in sinful activities. It does not mean receiving sadhu sanga from the line of the 6 Gosvamis and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura."

http://bvml.org/SGGM/iani.htm

Jagadish Pandit

[Puru_Das]

 

BTW Puru dasa,

 

This discussion was not started by me. I wrote that post about Janardan Maharaj and Anadi Krishna. I know them both very well. That is all.

 

Then it is only your supposition that SGGM was making a value judgement concerning Janardana Maharaja's decision to leave iskcon because of gbc aparadhas and politics and take shelter elsewhere Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja did his level best try to please Srila Prabhupada, and could not happily watch as the iskcon mission started to crumble before everyone's eyes However he never compromised Gaudiya tattva or siddhanta to placate gbc politics, and as a result was kicked out of Australia, and "banned" from Europe by both Bhagavan and Harikesa. He was always on the right side of the wrong side of gbc law, and any effort he made to keep iskcon in tact should not be misunderstood A careful read of his last public lecture makes his understanding of what iskcon should have been very clear.

A Society Without Envy

 

 

 

by Srila Gour Govinda Mahar

 

http://bvml.org/SGGM/aswe.htm