Independent Thinking

krsna · May 6, 2006

Nellore, January 3, 1976

Prabhupada: They boil it with.... Oh, you have come. Good morning. Thank you. With rice. I forgot your name.

Kesavalal Trivedi: Kesavalal Trivedi.

Prabhupada: Trivedi, Mr. Trivedi, yes. So, who is independent? This is our question. Who is independent? Do you know any man who is independent or any animal or any...?

Kesavalal Trivedi: No.

Prabhupada: So why they are thinking independently?

Kesavalal Trivedi: Unless we have got the identity, correct identity, we cannot be independent.

Prabhupada: What is this?

Mahamsa: This is keys for the lock, Prabhupada. It fell down.

Prabhupada: I think somebody has left.

Kesavalal Trivedi: Yes, there is lock and chain.

Mahamsa: This way, Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Which way? This is natural lake or...?

Mahamsa: Yes, Prabhupada. It never dries up. It stays full all year round.

Tamala Krsna: Gigantic. Like the Hyderabad lake.

Mahamsa: It looks bigger than the Hyderabad lake.

Tamala Krsna: Bigger.

Prabhupada: [break] So if you are not independent, what is the value of your thinking independently?

Kesavalal Trivedi: Absolutely none. None.

Prabhupada: But everyone is thinking independently.

Kesavalal Trivedi: Yes. That is maya. That is the maya, that which is not.

Prabhupada: They are making plans, theories, "ism." What is the value of this?

Kesavalal Trivedi: Absolutely none.

Prabhupada: Therefore everything is becoming failure. So preach this truth to the world, that "You are all rascals. Why you are thinking independently?" Huh? "Why I am rascal?Because you are thinking independently. That is the proof that you are a rascal." Andha yathandhair upaniyamanas te 'pisa-tantryam uru-damni baddhah [sB 7.5.31]. Isa-tantryam uru-damni baddhah. And they are thinking independently.

Kesavalal Trivedi: Baddha we have got, and still we are thinking...

Prabhupada: Baddha-jiva, every moment he is under the strict laws of nature. Generally they think that.... They speak also. "I think." Do they not say? "I think," as if he is independently thinking. What you can think? Hm? Acyutananda Maharaja, why do they say, "I think,In my opinion"? What is the value of your opinion?

Harikesa: Well, I have a certain amount of experience, and with my intelligence and my mind and my scientific method, I can put all that together and come out with some practical solution which I can work on.

Prabhupada: That you cannot, because you are not independent. Uru-damni baddhah. If you are tied hands and legs with strong rope, how you can think of "I shall become free in this way. I shall become free...?" But your hands and legs are tied up, so why do you think foolishly that you shall become free in this way, you shall become free this way? First of all open this, the tightening knot; then you plan that "I shall become..." But there is no such chance. So what is the value of your thinking like that?

Harikesa: Well, relatively speaking, it's better to do...

Prabhupada: That is another foolishness. Because you are so rascal, you do not know that "I cannot move even an inch and I am making plan." That is the proof that you are a rascal.

Kesavalal Trivedi: Tena vina trnam api na calati. That is the way.

Harikesa: But why are people in the capital...

Prabhupada: Therefore we call them all rascals. That is our confirmation of our statement. Mudhas, you all rascals, without any exception. Hm? The other day the high-court judge, he's supposed to be the most intelligent person within this state, high-court judge, and he was talking so many nonsense.

Kesavalal Trivedi: Because he thinks he knows, he does not know.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Kesavalal Trivedi: One who thinks he knows...

Prabhupada: Manyamana, manyamana. He is thinking he is very intelligent.

Acyutananda: While he was saying that, I was thinking, "I hope I never have him for a judge."

Prabhupada: You'll find everywhere such.

Acyutananda: Ultimately he was saying, "It is not Krsna or this. It is some 'something.' That is the reality."

Kesavalal Trivedi: He was thinking that he was bringing about some synthesization.

Acyutananda: Yes.

Kesavalal Trivedi: And that he was bringing...

Prabhupada: [break] ...with this land also? No. [break] ...this building?

Mahamsa: I think it is a school, Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Oh. [break] He does not know. He does not say that "certainly school.It may be."

Harikesa: Well, if I'm convinced it's a school, it's a school. I mean, the only thing that really matters is my perception of that thing.

Prabhupada: You learn from him that it is school. Before that, you did not know. Therefore you have to learn. That experience is valuable, when you learn it.

Harikesa: Yes, but the only thing that makes it a school...

Prabhupada: You cannot imagine by seeing a building that it is a school. You cannot imagine that. That is foolishness.

Harikesa: But all the people inside, they are also imagining that it's a school.

Prabhupada: So that is all...

Acyutananda: Just like if there is a pen. If I use it to kill someone, it is a weapon. If I use it to mix something, it is an instrument. If I use it to write with, then it's a pen. So it is not a pen. It is not a weapon. It is my idea that I impose on the object that makes it what it is.

Prabhupada: No. No. Your idea, that is foolishness. But you learn from a teacher that this is pen; this is not a weapon. You have to learn it. If you don't learn it, then you will go on making experiment whether it is pen or it is weapon or it is this or that. Go on. But it will never come to any conclusion.

Mahamsa: Like giving a child a pen who does not know...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Mahamsa: ...that we have to write with it. He has to be taught that we have to write.

Prabhupada: Everywhere you have to learn from the perfect person. Then his knowledge is perfect. So our proposition is that: learn from Krsna and you get perfect knowledge.

Kesavalal Trivedi: That is why he is jagat guru.

Harikesa: We've invented this pen, so we can invent how to use the pen.

Prabhupada: You have not invented. Some experienced more than yourself, he has done. You have been given the pen to use it for that purpose.

Acyutananda: Yes. Whenever some scientist does something, the whole nation of that scientist takes the credit. That is another idea. They say, "We made the pen," or something. Everyone in India takes the credit.

Prabhupada: That is animalism. Dehatma-buddhih. "I belong to some particular body, and he belongs to the same body or same nation. Therefore we become..." Instead of "I," we become "we."

Acyutananda: Recently there was an atomic scientist whose all major education was in America and Europe, and he won a Nobel Prize award...

Prabhupada: That is the tendency everywhere. The Britishers.... You go to the Parliament and Westminster Abbey. They have kept all the statues of Sir Isaac Newton and this Churchill, this.... Mean, they want to show that "It is only our nation who has produced all these intelligent persons."

Kesavalal Trivedi: Yes, yes. From "I-ness" to "we-ness."

Prabhupada: [break] This is basis of Gita. Tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya [bg. 4.34]. Learn from the real person, tattva-darsinah, who has seen, who has actual experience of the truth. Learn from him. The Gita never recommends that you imagine and make your theories. Never said. That is the Vedic culture. Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Tasmad gurum prapadyeta jijnasur sreya uttamam [sB 11.3.21]. This is the way. Take lesson from Krsna or Krsna's representative. Then you will get experience. This is Krsna consciousness. What is the use of imagining?

Harikesa: I mean, after all, all this talk about God was simply there because of man's desire to explain the unknown. He saw a thunderbolt and...

Prabhupada: It is unknown to the rascal man. It is known to the sober man. (laughter) He should become sober instead of becoming a rascal. That is required. Vidya-vinaya-sampanne [bg. 5.18]. Acaryavan puruso veda: "He knows, who has accepted the acarya." This is Theosophical Society, I think. Huh? That trademark. Or Ramakrishna Mission.

Acyutananda: No, Salvation Army.

Prabhupada: Salvation Army, oh.

Mahamsa: This is also school.

Harikesa: Actually we're the only Salvation Army.

Acyutananda: [break] ...the authority of a authority. We're accepting his authority, but his experience comes from his direct perception, which comes back to...

Prabhupada: We don't take such authorities, who takes experience from others. We take authority who is...

Kesavalal Trivedi: Experienced.

Prabhupada: Automatically. (sic:) Parasya bhaktir vividhaiva sruyate svabhaviki jnana-bala-kriya ca. Svabhava..., you can.... Just like if you ask me how to do something, if I say, "Yes, you do like this," svabhaviki. I have got by nature knowledge how to do it perfectly. That is going on. Mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram [bg. 9.10]. Krsna is dictating that "You do like this." So, you see, everything is coming perfect. From the nim seed a nim tree will come. It is so nicely made by Krsna-bijo 'ham sarva-bhutanam [bg 7.10] -- that it will come nim tree, not mango tree. The chemicals are so combined. You do not know what is there, a small seed, bata vrksa. And a huge banyan tree will come out, not other tree. That is knowledge. He has given the whole, I mean to say, operation in a small seed. Therefore Krsna says, bijo 'ham sarva-bhutanam. There is no mistake. You simply take it and cultivate. You'll get the result.

Acyutananda: So that principle, which makes things grow, the Isopanisad says, so 'ham asmi: "I am that principle."

Prabhupada: Hm?

Acyutananda: The Isopanisad says in the ultimate sloka, so 'ham asmi: "I am that."

Prabhupada: Asmi means "It is my energy. It is my energy."

Acyutananda: No, it says...

Prabhupada: If I say that "I am ISKCON," what is the wrong there? Because I have created this; therefore I say, "ISKCON means I. I am ISKCON." So what is the wrong there? It is like that. By energy of Krsna, everything has come out. Therefore says, "I am this, I am this, I am this, I am this." Vibhuti-bhinnam. Because everything.... Janmady asya yatah [sB 1.1.1]. Everything has come from Krsna.

Acyutananda: No, the Isopanisad says that you are that principle. Isopanisad says the principle which is lighting the sun...

Prabhupada: Yes, a devotee accepts.... That we accept.

Acyutananda: ...that "I am that principle. The being that is lighting the sun, I am that."

Prabhupada: I do not follow you.

Acyutananda: So 'ham asmi. That sixteenth...

Harikesa: "Like unto the sun, as am I."

Prabhupada: Oh. Yes, so 'ham asmi -- because I am part and parcel.

Acyutananda: No, but it says "I am that, " not that "I am part of that."

Prabhupada: No.

Acyutananda: "I am that.Like unto..."

Prabhupada: If it is said, it can be accepted, because I am qualitatively the same.

Kesavalal Trivedi: Quantity, much difference.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Acyutananda: No, but the direct statement...

Prabhupada: I am.... If I say, "I am Indian," what is the wrong there, if I say, "I am Indian"?

Acyutananda: That is something else.

Prabhupada: Yes. Not something else.

Acyutananda: But to directly accept the sruti, it says you are that same principle.

Prabhupada: And therefore you have to learn from the guru. And if you directly take, then you remain a fool. Therefore you require a guru. That is the instruction of sruti. Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. You have to learn sruti. You have to come to a guru.

Acyutananda: No, but this is after that. The ultimate conclusion of that Upanisad, sruti, the authority, is that you are that same principle.

Prabhupada: Yes, I am the same principle. Nityo nityanam.

Acyutananda: Well, nothing can be more eternal than another eternal.

Prabhupada: Everyone is eternal.

Acyutananda: It is contradictory then. Nityo nityananam. You cannot say that one thing is more eternal than another thing.

Prabhupada: No, no. That is not the point. Everyone is eternal.

Acyutananda: So how can one be more eternal than...

Prabhupada: As God is eternal, so you are also eternal.

Acyutananda: Then why the distinction...?

Prabhupada: But because you have accepted this material body, you are foolishly thinking that you are not eternal. Otherwise, as God is eternal, you are also eternal.

Acyutananda: Then why should one be distinguished from another if they are both eternal?

Prabhupada: Just like the sun distinguished from the sunshine, but qualitatively heat and light is there. But because sunshine is there, you cannot say sun is there. That you cannot say. Mat-sthani sarva-bhutani naham tesv avasthitah [bg. 9.4]. Clearly said.

Kesavalal Trivedi: I think, Swamiji, you explained this, and I could draw rationality from it, that "I am isa, but not I am sarvesa. I am atman but not Paramatman."

Prabhupada: Yes.

Kesavalal Trivedi: "I am amsa but not Paramamsa."

Prabhupada: That is explained in other.... You have to take reference. Isvarah paramah krsnah [bs. 5.1]. I am also isvarah. That I explained so many times. But that does not mean I am paramesvara. Paramesvara is Krsna. What is this building? Hm?

Acyutananda: This is more of that Christian...

Prabhupada: Huh?

Acyutananda: Same seal as the Christian...

Tamala Krsna: What about that?

Acyutananda: This is a mosque.

Kesavalal Trivedi: Aham brahmasmi I was not able to explain till I heard Swamiji on the first day at Rajeswara in Mandapur.(?) That fits in. Otherwise Mayavadins, "All right, but Sankaracarya saying, aham brahmasmi. Why you say no?" Because so many persons ask me question. And when I was confronted, I was not able to say that. But the way the mukti was defined, mukti, yes, and in the lecture, and isa, sarvesa, all those things -- atma, Paramatma, amsa, Paramamsa -- there I found that it can be explained. Because so many persons, they ask in public meeting like Lions Club, where we take up these topics. Then we feel at our wit's end. But now I think I can explain them.

Prabhupada: So that day my explanation was all right?

Kesavalal Trivedi: Yes, that is how I feel. And that is what will apply also to Acyutananda Swami's question also, I think.

Acyutananda: No, I'm just fencing.

Kesavalal Trivedi: No, no, that's all.... I know.

Acyutananda: So Durga is higher than Visnu because Visnu required Durga to awaken Him from the yoga-nidra to kill Madhu and Kaitabha. So she controls Him.

Prabhupada: Yes, if I ask my servant that "You ask me to get up at seven o'clock," that does not mean.... (laughter) Kesavalal Trivedi: No, some of these things we could not follow. As a matter of Madhu-Kaitabha-vadha, I have read it several times.... (end)

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- January 3, 1976, Nellore