Guest guest Posted May 9, 2006 Report Share Posted May 9, 2006 Indeed. Is there any 'body' which is not Bhagavan, or even any 'thing'... ? A simple, challenging meditation point, and yet how comforting ! anbudan John Siva-Siva - Peter RamanaMaharshi Tuesday, May 09, 2006 8:45 AM [RamanaMaharshi] Gem's from Bhagavan: Miscellaneous No one can be out of sight of the Supreme Presence. Since you identify one body with Bhagavan and another body with yourself, you find two separate entities and speak of going away from here. Wherever you may be, you cannot leave me. (from "Gems from Bhagavan", selected by A. Devaraja Mudaliar) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 Dear John, One can also give attention to the verb 'to be' in... "wherever you may be you cannot leave me." Thus - wherever you may be, there 'I AM'. Isn't this what Bhagavan states in the first Mangalam of The Forty Verses? 'Can there be a sense of existence [being] without something that [eternally] is? and later in the Mangalam... ".... And who is there, distinct from It, to meditate on It, the Self whose nature is Reality Consciousness? Know that to meditate on It is just to be at one with It within the Heart." (Lakshaman Sarma's translation.) anbudan Peter _____ RamanaMaharshi [RamanaMaharshi] On Behalf Of John 09 May 2006 09:51 RamanaMaharshi Re: [RamanaMaharshi] Gem's from Bhagavan: Miscellaneous Indeed. Is there any 'body' which is not Bhagavan, or even any 'thing'... ? A simple, challenging meditation point, and yet how comforting ! anbudan John Siva-Siva Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 Peter, It is a funny thing that you should reply thus, because the next job on my list was to set out Bhagavan's First Mangalam Stanza for the Forty Verses in tabular form. Your mail had the effect of speeding the process up! >One can also give attention to the verb 'to be' in... It is crucial to pay attention to the verb 'to be'. In this Stanza (from which Sri Lakshmana Sarma made his translation) the Tamil verb used is 'uL(Lu)' which, if anything, is more profound than the regularly used verb 'iru', meaning 'to be' (it also means 'to remain' or 'to sit down'). Lakshmana Sarma's translation, as found in "Revelation" is excellent, so there is really not much to add. Only we can point out that there is a little bit extra in the Kali Venba Version written for chanting, but as the "extra" in this stanza locks onto the second Mangalam Verse, although in the first Verse the difference is academic. As you are well familiar with the Verse, it may be a useful exercise to take a look at the table, to see how the translation is reached, or indeed make your own translation : http://acalayoga.suddenlaunch3.com/index.cgi in the "Collected Works" Department. >wherever you may be you cannot leave me." Yes indeed, this is a wonderful Talk...: "You do not go anywhere away from the Presence as you imagine. The Presence is everywhere. The body moves from place to place; yet it does not leave the one Presence. So no one can be out of sight of the Supreme Presence. Since you identify one body with Sri Bhagavan and another body with yourself, you find two separate entities and speak of going away from here. Wherever you may be, you cannot leave ME. " (Talk § 470) anbudan John - Peter RamanaMaharshi Wednesday, May 10, 2006 9:06 AM RE: [RamanaMaharshi] Gem's from Bhagavan: Miscellaneous Dear John, One can also give attention to the verb 'to be' in... "wherever you may be you cannot leave me." Thus - wherever you may be, there 'I AM'. Isn't this what Bhagavan states in the first Mangalam of The Forty Verses? 'Can there be a sense of existence [being] without something that [eternally] is? and later in the Mangalam... ".... And who is there, distinct from It, to meditate on It, the Self whose nature is Reality Consciousness? Know that to meditate on It is just to be at one with It within the Heart." (Lakshaman Sarma's translation.) anbudan Peter RamanaMaharshi [RamanaMaharshi] On Behalf Of John 09 May 2006 09:51 RamanaMaharshi Re: [RamanaMaharshi] Gem's from Bhagavan: Miscellaneous Indeed. Is there any 'body' which is not Bhagavan, or even any 'thing'... ? A simple, challenging meditation point, and yet how comforting ! anbudan John Siva-Siva Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2006 Report Share Posted May 13, 2006 hello everyone, who can explain this statment "The wise > man's heart is at the right hand and a fools heart > is at the left".what dose that mean structrully,dose it refer to the structre of subtle body.thanks for anybody who can expand it . M.G.Hamed --- Peter <not_2 (AT) btopenworld (DOT) com> wrote: > > > The Bible says, 'Be still and know that I am God,' > Psalm 46. Found in > Ecclesiastics: 'There is one alone and there is no > second' and 'The wise > man's heart is at the right hand and a fools heart > is at the left'. > > (from "Gems from Bhagavan", selected by A. Devaraja > Mudaliar) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tired of spam? Mail has the best spam protection around Visit your group "RamanaMaharshi" on the web. Terms of Service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 John, It was marvellous to be able to go to the Acalayoga forum and find the first mangalam there. I hope you will be adding the other 41 verses! That's if you have time, of course - as you are already posting a translation from the Tamil version of "Who am I?" and 'The Eleven Verses'. Its wonderful to see the steps between the Tamil and the English translation in all these. Thank you for this. Yes, I had been working my way through The Forty Verses again. Had meant to look at one verse a week, but started reflecting on the first mangalam about 3-4 weeks again and seem unable to move on, it has such a pull. If we take your suggestion and look at the Tamil verb uL(Lu) which is used for 'to be' in the first mangalam, and if we also consider uLLam = Heart, then it is quite something just to scan the Tamil words in this mangalam and all the repeated variations of uL(Lu). To this untutored mind, which knows next to nothing of the Tamil language, one just senses 'being' and 'the heart' pulsating in every word and throughout the whole verse. anbudan Peter _____ RamanaMaharshi [RamanaMaharshi] On Behalf Of John 11 May 2006 19:24 RamanaMaharshi [RamanaMaharshi] Re: Gem's from Bhagavan: Miscellaneous Peter, It is a funny thing that you should reply thus, because the next job on my list was to set out Bhagavan's First Mangalam Stanza for the Forty Verses in tabular form. Your mail had the effect of speeding the process up! >One can also give attention to the verb 'to be' in... It is crucial to pay attention to the verb 'to be'. In this Stanza (from which Sri Lakshmana Sarma made his translation) the Tamil verb used is 'uL(Lu)' which, if anything, is more profound than the regularly used verb 'iru', meaning 'to be' (it also means 'to remain' or 'to sit down'). Lakshmana Sarma's translation, as found in "Revelation" is excellent, so there is really not much to add. Only we can point out that there is a little bit extra in the Kali Venba Version written for chanting, but as the "extra" in this stanza locks onto the second Mangalam Verse, although in the first Verse the difference is academic. As you are well familiar with the Verse, it may be a useful exercise to take a look at the table, to see how the translation is reached, or indeed make your own translation : http://acalayoga.suddenlaunch3.com/index.cgi <snip> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 Dear M.G., Sri Ramana maintained that while the physical organ called 'heart' was on the left side of the body, the spiritual centre called 'Heart' was on the right. He pointed to literature from Aruvedic sources and also from the Bible to support this. However, when pressed upon this issue by His devotees, Sri Ramana also said the above was given only for those who identify themselves with the body and that in truth, the Heart is none other than the Self. Everything exists within the Self, the Heart, rather than vice versa. There are some valuable references to Heart ( Hridaya) in "Talks". And also a particularly valuable passage in "Ramana Gita" (by Ganapati Muni), chapter 5 which begins "Now the chapter on Hridaya Vidya is commented upon. This is a discourse of Bhagavan Maharshi given of his own volition..." This seems to suggest that what Bhagavan says on this is of particular importance. ( "Talks" can be downloaded for free from Terms of Service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 The question of the Heart comes up periodically among Bhagavan's devotees because Bhagavan often spoke of it and many of his devotees experienced it. The following sections were written some years ago and provide some information. community blog is at [url="http://.net/blog/"]http://.net/blog/ "Love itself is the actual form of God." Sri Ramana In "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma Terms of Service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 Dear Peter, Thank you for this. >I hope you will be adding the other 41 verses! That's if you have time, of course - as you are already posting a translation >from the Tamil version of "Who am I?" and 'The Eleven Verses'. Its wonderful to see the steps between the Tamil and the >English translation in all these. Yes, all being well, the remaining 41 Verses will be appended. In this case the problem was not so much understanding the Tamil, but understanding how to encode the posts in the forum to represent coherent tables. That problem is now solved, and this type of post can be made from both England and India, which was not possible earlier on. I can explain that a lot of processing power is needed in the brain to make a translation; if we think of it as a hard drive spinning round driven by its chip (the 'chit' of consciousness), there is a considerable slow-down pushing it through to translation, and often our native language does not easily accomodate Tamil phrases. - Hence the idea of representing the Tamil phrases as Bhagavan wrote them, to accompany them with matching English 'molecules' or 'globules'. These can be read straight through. They may sound 'funny', but that is is exactly what the Tamilian will hear, the strangeness is merely due to being unaccustomed to it. You have probably found already that the word order is starting to make sense. If those molecules still seem odd, the next step is to proceed to a translation. You certainly have a much greater Tamil vocabulary than you realize; and in a parallel way we know already that when a child begins to speak, using primal words and sounds, that its word store is actually quite large - I believe it is some hundreds of words. The child is not interested in such things as grammar, inflexions or words, and so on. They just come out, often in a semi-digested way; and that is a great point to remember, for it is our mother tongue which is so deeply rooted. So we can also emulate what we did as kids; we are all Sri Bhagavan's Children. Translators are sometimes rather secret about how they arrive at their translation... You have doubtless realised that there is so often the subliminal desire for "my" translation to be the best one! Hence what we attempt on the Deep Forty, and on the specialist forum also, is to "cut out the middle-man" (the translator) as much as possible. By hearing the original sounds, "you", the devotee, can connect directly with the words, following the Triple-Set patterns in the same way that a musician follows his music score. After a little practice, and once the rhythms and words have seeped in, a direct experience of Sri Bhagavan's words can, and does, ensue. In this way, the teaching of Sri Ramana is directly known; the way it is, the way it has always been. Those perceived "good old days" of the bodily form of Bhagavan sitting in the Old Hall have not passed; by leaving the body-form, He taught us a valuable lesson, that "...I..." am not the body. What a blessed lesson this is to us all! These words are his priceless gift to us all; as in Verse 16 of uLLatu NARpatu, we know from deep within that 'We' transcend Time and Space; not only in words, but in fact. anbudan John Siva—Siva RamanaMaharshi, "Peter" <not_2 wrote: > > Dear John, > > One can also give attention to the verb 'to be' in... > > "wherever you may be you cannot leave me." > > Thus - wherever you may be, there 'I AM'. > > Isn't this what Bhagavan states in the first Mangalam of The Forty Verses? > > 'Can there be a sense of existence [being] without something that > [eternally] is? > > and later in the Mangalam... > > ".... And who is there, distinct from It, to meditate on It, the Self whose > nature is Reality Consciousness? Know that to meditate on It is just to be > at one with It within the Heart." (Lakshaman Sarma's translation.) > > anbudan > > Peter > > _____ > > RamanaMaharshi [RamanaMaharshi] > On Behalf Of John > 09 May 2006 09:51 > RamanaMaharshi > Re: [RamanaMaharshi] Gem's from Bhagavan: Miscellaneous > > > Indeed. > > Is there any 'body' which is not Bhagavan, > or even any 'thing'... ? > > A simple, challenging meditation point, > > and yet how comforting ! > > anbudan > > John > > Siva-Siva > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 Hi MG, What's mind? It's a poor reflection of the SELF. For a reflection there has to be reflecting surface in action. Such reflecting medium is furnished by the aggregate of the vasanas of the individual and lies in the spiritual heart. Self is in the Heart and the vasanas are also there in an exceedingly subtle form. Therefore the seeker’s aim must be to drain away the vasanas from the heart and let no reflection obstruct the Light of Eternal Consciousness This is well explained by Bhagwan to Q - as given below. (imp lines are marked in bold) D.: Is the Jivanadi (jiva: the individual soul; the ego---nadi: yogic nerve) an entity or a figment of the imagination? M.: The yogis say that there is a nadi called the jivanadi, atmanadi (atma (n): Self) or paranadi (para: higher; in Tantrism unmanifest sound). The Upanishads speak of a centre from which thousands of nadis branch off. Some locate such a centre in the brain and others in other centres. The Garbhopanishad traces the formation of the foetus and the growth of the child in the womb. The jiva isconsidered to enter the child through the fontanelle in the seventh month of its growth. In evidence thereof it is pointed out that the fontanelle is tender in a baby and is also seen to pulsate. It takes some months for it to ossify. Thus the jiva comes from above, enters through the fontanelle and works through the thousands of the nadis which are spread over the whole body. Therefore the seeker of Truth must concentrate on the sahasrara, that is the brain, in order to regain his source. Pranayama (pranayama: regulation of breathing) is said to help the yogi to rouse the Kundalini Sakti (kundalini: yogic power called the serpent power--sakti: power) which lies coiled in the solar plexus. The sakti rises through a nerve called the Sushumna, which is imbedded in the core of the spinal cord and extends to the brain. If one concentrates on the Sahasrara (sahasrara: the highest yogic centre located in the brain) there is no doubt that the ecstasy of samadhi ensues. The vasanas,(vasana: habit of the mind; latent tendency or impression) that is the latencies, are not however destroyed. The yogi is therefore bound to wake up from the samadhi, because release from bondage has not yet been accomplished. He must still try to eradicate the vasanas in order that the latencies yet inherent in him may not disturb the peace of his samadhi. So he passes down from the sahasrara to the heart through what is called the jivanadi, which is only a continuation of the Sushumna. The Sushumna is thus a curve. It starts from the solar plexus, rises through the spinal cord to the brain and from there bends down and ends in the heart. When the yogi has reached the heart, the samadhi becomes permanent. Thus we see that the heart is the final centre. Some Upanishads also speak of 101 nadis which spread from the heart, one of them being the vital nadi. If the jiva comes down from above and gets reflected in the brain, as the yogis say, there must be a reflecting surface in action. That must also be capable of limiting the Infinite Consciousness to the limits of the body. In short the Universal Being becomes limited as a jiva. Such reflecting medium is furnished by the aggregate of the vasanas of the individual. It acts like the water in a pot which reflects the image of an object. If the pot be drained of its water there will be no reflection. The object will remain without being reflected. The object here is the Universal Being-Consciousness which is all-pervading and therefore immanent in all. It need not be cognised by reflection alone; it is self-resplendent. Therefore the seeker’s aim must be to drain away the vasanas from the heart and let no reflection obstruct the Light of Eternal Consciousness. This is achieved by the search for the origin of the ego and by diving into the heart. This is the direct method for Self-Realisation. One who adopts it need not worry about nadis, the brain, the Sushumna, the Paranadi, the Kundalini, pranayama or the six centres. The Self does not come from anywhere else and enter the body through the crown of the head. It is as it is, ever sparkling, ever steady, unmoving and unchanging. The changes which are noticed are not inherent in the Self which abides in the Heart and is self-luminous like the Sun. The changes are seen in Its Light. The relation between the Self and the body or the mind may be compared to that of a clear crystal and its background. If the crystal is placed against a red flower, it shines red; if placed against a green leaf it shines green, and so on. The individual confines himself to the limits of the changeful body or of the mind which derives its existence from the unchanging Self. All that is necessary is to give up this mistaken identity, and that done, the evershining Self will be seen to be the single non-dual Reality. The reflection of Consciousness is said to be in the subtle body (sukshma sarira), which appears to be composed of the brain and the nerves radiating from it to all parts of the trunk, chiefly through the spinal column and the solar plexus. When I was on the Hill, Nayana (Kavyakantha Ganapathi Muni) once argued that the brain was the seat of the vasanas, because it consisted of innumerable cells in which the vasanas were contained and illuminated by the light of the Self which projected from the heart. Only this set a person working or thinking. But I said, “How can it be so? The vasanas must be with one’s Self and can never remain away from the Self. If, as you say, the vasanas be contained in the brain and the Heart is the seat of the Self, a person who is decapitated must be rid of his vasanas and should not be reborn. You agree that it is absurd. Now can you say that the Self is in the brain with the vasanas? If so, why should the head bend down when one falls asleep? Moreover a person does not touch his head and say ‘I’. Therefore it follows that the Self is in the Heart and the vasanas are also there in an exceedingly subtle form. “When the vasanas are projected from the Heart they are associated with the Light of the Self and the person is said to think. The vasanas which lie imbedded in an atomic condition grow in size in their passage from the heart to the brain. The brain is the screen on which the images of the vasanas are thrown and it is also the place of their functional distribution. The brain is the seat of the mind, and the mind works through it.” So then this is what happens. When a vasana is released and it comes into play, it is associated with the light of the Self. It passes from the heart to the brain and on its way it grows more and more until it holds the field all alone and all the vasanas are thus kept in abeyance for the time being. When the thought is reflected in the brain it appears as image on a screen. The person is then said to have a clear perception of things. He is a great thinker or discoverer. Neither the thought that is extolled as being original, nor the thing, nor the country which is claimed to be a new discovery, is really original or new. It could not manifest unless it was already in the mind. It was of course very subtle and remained imperceptible, because it lay repressed by the more urgent or insistent thoughts or vasanas. When they have spent themselves this thought arises and by concentration the Light of the Self makes it clear, so that it appears magnificent, original and revolutionary. In fact it was only within all along. This concentration is called samyamana in the Yoga Sastras. One’s desires can be fulfilled by this process and it is said to be a siddhi (siddhi: supernatural powers; realization; attainment). It is how the so-called new discoveries are made. Even worlds can be created in this manner. Samyamana leads to all siddhis. But they do not manifest so long as the ego lasts. Concentration according to yoga ends in the destruction of the experiencer (ego), experience and the world, and then the quondam desires get fulfilled in due course. This concentration bestows on individuals even the powers of creating new worlds. It is illustrated in the Aindava Upakhyana in the Yoga Vasishta and in the Ganda Saila Loka in the Tripura Rahasya. Although the powers appear to be wonderful to those who do not possess them, yet they are only transient. It is useless to aspire for that which is transient. All these wonders are contained in the one changeless Self. The world is thus within and not without. This meaning is contained in verses 11 and 12 - Chapter V of Sri Ramana Gita “The entire Universe is condensed in the body, and the entire body in the Heart. Thus the Heart is the nucleus of the whole Universe.” Therefore Samyamana relates to concentration on different parts of the body for the different siddhis. Also the Visva or the Virat (Virat: totality of gross beings--Visva: the individual being in the waking state) is said to contain the cosmos within the limits of the body. Again, “The world is not other than the mind, the mind is not other than the Heart; that is the whole truth.” So the Heart comprises all. This is what is taught to Svetaketu by the illustration of the seed of a fig tree. The source is a point without any dimensions. It expands as the cosmos on the one hand and as Infinite Bliss on the other. That point is the pivot. From it a single vasana starts, multiplies as the experiencer ‘I’, experience, and the world. The experiencer and the source are referred to in the mantra. Two birds, exactly alike, arise simultaneously. When I was staying in the Skandasramam I sometimes used to go out and sit on a rock. On one such occasion there were two or three others with me including Rangaswami Iyengar. Suddenly we noticed some small moth-like insect shooting up like a rocket into the air from a crevice in the rock. Within the twinkling of an eye it had multiplied itself into millions of moths which formed a cloud and hid the sky from view. We wondered at it and examined the place from which it shot up. We found that it was only a pinhole and knew that so many insects could not have issued from it in such a short time. That is how ahankara (ego) shoots up like a rocket and instantaneously spreads out as the Universe. The Heart is therefore the centre. A person can never be away from it. If he is he is already dead. Although the Upanishads say that the jiva functions through other centres on different occasions, yet he does not relinquish the Heart. The centres are simply places of business (vide Vedanta Chudamani). The Self is bound to the Heart, like a cow tethered to a peg. The movements are controlled by the length of the rope. All its wanderings centre around the peg. A caterpillar crawls on a blade of grass and when it has come to the end, it seeks another support. While doing so it holds on with its hind-legs to the blade of grass, lifts the body and sways to and fro before it can hold another. Similarly it is with the Self. It stays in the Heart and holds other centres also according to circumstances. But its activities always centre round the Heart. Peter <not_2 (AT) btopenworld (DOT) com> wrote: Dear M.G., Sri Ramana maintained that while the physical organ called 'heart' was on the left side of the body, the spiritual centre called 'Heart' was on the right. He pointed to literature from Aruvedic sources and also from the Bible to support this. However, when pressed upon this issue by His devotees, Sri Ramana also said the above was given only for those who identify themselves with the body and that in truth, the Heart is none other than the Self. Everything exists within the Self, the Heart, rather than vice versa. There are some valuable references to Heart ( Hridaya) in "Talks". And also a particularly valuable passage in "Ramana Gita" (by Ganapati Muni), chapter 5 which begins "Now the chapter on Hridaya Vidya is commented upon. This is a discourse of Bhagavan Maharshi given of his own volition..." This seems to suggest that what Bhagavan says on this is of particular importance. ( "Talks" can be downloaded for free from http://www.ramana-maharshi.org/ at the "Downloads" page.) Regards, Peter RamanaMaharshi [RamanaMaharshi] On Behalf Of Mahmoud Gholami Hamed 13 May 2006 01:52 RamanaMaharshi Re: [RamanaMaharshi] Gem's from Bhagavan: Miscellaneous hello everyone, who can explain this statment "The wise > man's heart is at the right hand and a fools heart is at the > left".what dose that mean structrully,dose it refer to the structre of subtle body.thanks for anybody who can expand it .. M.G.Hamed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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