Women's role and intelligence

[Guest guest]

On 29 May 2002, Balaji Prasad wrote:

 

> 7) Also, in devotional service, everyone has to take a subservient position,

> why only women. I don't see anything wrong, or that we are going against

> Srila Prabhupada's teachings, if the wife goes to office and earn money to

> take care of family and the husband stays back at home and takes care of

> children, and house hold activities, as long as they follow regulative

> principles and chant 16 malas and preach to the extent possible. I know a

> few devotees having this arrangement, circumstantially.

 

 

Men who take care of the house and children while the wife supports the family

are 82% more likely to die of a heart attack than men who support the family.

The more authority a woman has in her career, the more likely she is to die of

a heart attack. Such medical facts indicate that such activities are against

nature and Krsna's plan.

 

Your servant, Urmila devi dasi

[Guest guest]

Mukunda Maharaja wrote this as an editorial for the Hindustan Times. I think

it is excellent and deals with many of these issues. Personally, I understand

that it is primarily because occupations were no longer home based and

marriages no longer compatibile, that many of these issues have arisen.

Anyway, here it is...

 

Meditations:

 

Published 11 October 2001

 

RESEARCH SHOWS that the countries with the largest percentage of women in

business, government and education are Sweden, Norway, Denmark and New

Zealand. But are these truly the marks of "freedom" and even if India comes

further down the list, does that mean that its women are less free?

 

The Vedas teach that Krishna has an eternal, equal, female counterpart, Radha,

who is the personification of love of God. God is, therefore worshipped in the

dual Radha-Krishna form.

 

Throughout history, there have been great women devotees of the Lord, who are

honoured and respected. On the spiritual platform, men and women are

considered equal, with the same opportunity for spiritual progress through

bhakti-yoga. There were, however, different gender roles.

 

In an ideal Vedic society, the economy was household-based and husbands and

wives were partners, according to their social status. The economic base of

society was primarily agricultural and centered around households. This meant

that both men and women would be part of the same economic unit, though with

different roles. Generally, men would be involved in ploughing and herding

cows, and women would be involved in activities around the household.

Kshatriyas would be involved in military and administrative affairs.

 

With time women also became engaged in fighting and ruling but continued to be

loyal assistants to their husbands. At the same time they also played a role

appropriate to their status as queens, princesses, etc. The wives of brahmins

would assist their husbands in the performance of religious rituals and

teaching. In each case, the men and women would be partners in a particular

activity of their social order, but with different roles in the partnership.

 

In the modern West-influenced society, India has made adjustments. The economy

is not totally agricultural or household-based. So Indian citizens might

follow the standard patterns of either both husband and wife working at some

occupation away from the household, or the husband pursuing a career while the

woman stays at home and takes care of the children. But men and women, as in

the Vedic society, have equal access to spiritual wisdom.

 

According to tradition and philosophy, women may take the position of the

guru, or spiritual master, and this has already taken place. In our society we

have seen women occupy positions of importance in the government. But the

eternal question remains whether Indian women are freer than ever?

[Guest guest]

On 23 Jun 2002, Shyamasundara das wrote:

 

>

> you never once in your response to me or Sita Mataji quote any

> sastra. Not even once. What you would do is along the following lines:

>

> On June 20th, 2002 Urmila said:

>

> "The results are the same either way. And either way could be sastricaly

> substantiated. "

>

> "The fact that there are various material classifications of women is

> clearly sastric, and certainly our practical experience."

>

> "Some conclusions from the above:"

>

> You assume that your position is sastricaly sound without providing the

> sastra to prove it. Then you draw conclusions from these unproven

> assumptions. Is this not an oxymoron?

>

> I mean, am I the only one who sees that there is something very un-Vedic in

> your presentation? Maybe you are not even aware of it yourself. Mataji don't

> get me wrong. I have been a friend of you and your family for a long time

> (since 1979) so take it as a well-wishing god-brother who is pointing out a

> blind spot (especially since we are supposed to see through the eyes of the

> sastra--sastra caksus).

>

> One of the main reasons that compelled me to become a disciple of Srila

> Prabhupada was that I immediately noticed that in all of Srila Prabhupada's

> writings (and later lectures) he ALWAYS backed everything he said by sastra.

 

 

Please accept my obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

 

Thanks for pointing out the defect, where I have violated one of the

austerities of speech--in not refering to sastra. Here's some of my

references:

 

Sukadeva Gosvami continued: Because such a marriage is not sanctioned by

regular scriptures, King Yayati did not like it, but because it was arranged

by providence and because he was attracted by Devayani's beauty, he accepted

her request.

PURPORT

According to the Vedic system, the parents would consider the horoscopes of

the boy and girl who were to be married. If according to astrological

calculations the boy and girl were compatible in every respect, the match was

called yotaka and the marriage would be accepted. Even fifty years ago, this

system was current in Hindu society. Regardless of the affluence of the boy or

the personal beauty of the girl, without this astrological compatibility the

marriage would not take place. A person is born in one of three categories,

known as deva-gana, manusya-gana and raksasa-gana. In different parts of the

universe there are demigods and demons, and in human society also some people

resemble demigods whereas others resemble demons. If according to astrological

calculations there was conflict between a godly and a demoniac nature, the

marriage would not take place. Similarly, there were calculations of pratiloma

and anuloma. The central idea is that if the boy and girl were on an equal

level the marriage would be happy, whereas inequality would lead to

unhappiness. Because care is no longer taken in marriage, we now find many

divorces. Indeed, divorce has now become a common affair, although formerly

one's marriage would continue lifelong, and the affection between husband and

wife was so great that the wife would voluntarily die when her husband died or

would remain a faithful widow throughout her entire life. Now, of course, this

is no longer possible, for human society has fallen to the level of animal

society. Marriage now takes place simply by agreement. Dampatye 'bhirucir

hetuh (SB 12.2.3). The word abhiruci means "agreement." If the boy and girl

simply agree to marry, the marriage takes place. But when the Vedic system is

not rigidly observed, marriage frequently ends in divorce.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 9.18.23

 

 

"My dear Lord, You have stated that a marriage between persons equal in social

standing, beauty, riches, strength, influence and renunciation can be a

suitable match.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => KB 60: Talks Between Krsna and Rukmini

 

 

It appears from this verse that during the time of the Pandavas free contact

between man and woman was allowed in certain conditions only. The higher-caste

men, namely the brahmanas and ksatriyas, could accept a woman of the vaisya or

the sudra community, but a man from the lower castes could not contact a woman

of the higher caste. Even a ksatriya could not contact a woman of the brahmana

caste. The wife of a brahmana is considered one of the seven mothers (namely

one's own mother, the wife of the spiritual master or teacher, the wife of a

brahmana, the wife of a king, the cow, the nurse, and the earth). Such contact

between man and woman was known as uttama and adhama. Contact of a brahmana

with a ksatriya woman is uttama, but the contact of a ksatriya with a brahmana

woman is adhama and therefore condemned.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 1.14.42

 

 

One who desires to establish family life should marry a wife of his own caste,

who is beyond reproach and younger in age. If one desires to accept many wives

he must marry them after the first marriage, and each wife should be of a

successively lower caste.

PURPORT

As stated in the Vedic literature,

tisro varnanupurvyena

dve tathaika yatha-kramam

brahmana-ksatriya-visam

bharyah svah sudra-janmanah

The purport of this verse is that one's first wife must always be sadrsim, or

similar to oneself. In other words, an intellectual man should marry an

intellectual wife, a heroic man should marry a heroic wife, a business minded

man should marry a woman who can encourage him in such activities, and a sudra

should marry a less intelligent woman. The wife must be beyond reproach in

terms of her background and character and should always be younger than

oneself

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 11.17.39

 

 

When a male is united with a female of a lower caste, the offspring is called

anuloma; but when a male unites with a woman of a higher caste, the offspring

is called pratiloma.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => KB 78: The Killing of Dantavakra, Viduratha and

Romaharsana

 

 

n the similarly, woman class, they are taken as sudra, sudra. Just like the

thread ceremony is given to the brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, but there is no

thread ceremony for the woman class. Although the woman is born in the

brahmana family, she has no that reformation. Because striyah, woman class,

are taken less intelligent, they should be given protection, but they cannot

be elevated. But here in the Bhagavad-gita, He surpasses all these

formalities. Lord Krsna surpasses all these formalities. He is giving facility

to everyone. Never mind what he is. In the social structure, you may consider

that woman is less intelligent or sudra or less purified, but in spiritual

consciousness there is no such bar. Here Krsna accepts everyone.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 9.29-32 -- New York, December 20, 1966

 

 

So sudra women, they are not chaste. Some of them are practically professional

prostitute. But that is not in higher caste family -- brahmana, ksatriya,

vaisya. But at the present moment it is very difficult to distinguish who is

brahmana and who is sudra. But formerly this is the system of Vedic

civilization -- ideal character, ideal behavior of the brahmana; less, little

less, ksatriya; little less, vaisya; and less than the vaisya, the sudra; and

less than the sudras are called candalas. First class, second class, third

class, fourth class, and then fifth class.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.1.66 -- Vrndavana, September 2, 1975

 

 

My comment: In the first quote, Prabhupada says that women in general are

classed as “sudra” but in the second quote he refers to “sudra women” as

distinguished from women of a higher caste or varna. Therefore one can

conclude that, although women are equivilent to sudras, in another sense they

are also of the different varnas.

 

 

aho -- alas; me -- my; paramam -- extreme; kastam -- miserable condition;

abhut -- became; avijita-atmanah -- because my senses were uncontrolled;

yena -- by which; viplavitam -- destroyed; brahma -- all my brahminical

qualifications; vrsalyam -- through a sudrani, a maidservant; jayata -- being

born; atmana -- by me.

TRANSLATION

Ajamila said: Alas, being a servant of my senses, how degraded I became! I

fell down from my position as a duly qualified brahmana and begot children in

the womb of a prostitute.

PURPORT

The men of the higher classes -- the brahmanas, ksatriyas and vaisyas -- do

not beget children in the wombs of lower-class women. Therefore the custom in

Vedic society is to examine the horoscopes of a girl and boy being considered

for marriage to see whether their combination is suitable. Vedic astrology

reveals whether one has been born in the vipra-varna, ksatriya-varna,

vaisya-varna or sudra-varna, according to the three qualities of material

nature. This must be examined because a marriage between a boy of the

vipra-varna and a girl of the sudra-varna is incompatible; married life would

be miserable for both husband and wife. Consequently a boy should marry a girl

of the same category.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 6.2.26

 

 

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu never acknowledged the stereotyped caste system by

birthright; rather, He strictly followed the verdict of the sastras in the

matter of one's svarupa, or real identity.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => SB Introduction

 

 

This spirit of ksatriya was prevalent even, say, three hundred years ago in

India. There was a king, Yasomanta Sena. He was the commander-in-chief of

Emperor Aurangzeb. So in one fight, he was defeated and came back to his home.

So his wife heard that "My husband has been defeated. He's coming back home."

So she asked the caretaker to close the door of the palace. So when Yasomanta

Sena came there, he saw that his palace door is closed. Then he sent message

to the queen that "Why you have closed the door? I have come home." So

messenger came and informed that "The king has come. So he is asking to open

the door." The queen replied, "Who is king? Yasomanta Sena. No, no. Yasomanta

Sena cannot come being defeated. Yasomanta Sena either he conquers the battle

or he lays down his body there dead. So the man who has come, he must be

somebody pretender. He is not King Yasomanta Sena." So she refused to open the

door. This is the spirit of ksatriya spirit.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 2.33-35 -- London, September 3, 1973

[Guest guest]

My dear old and good friend Sita,

 

Please accept my obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

 

Thanks for your fine response. It's wonderful that there are devotees such as

your good self who are dedicated to restoring varnasrama and keeping us in

line with Srila Prabhupada.

 

I hope this meets you in good health and blissful Krsna consciousness.

 

Your servant, Urmila devi dasi