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On 2 Jul 2002, Bhakti Vikasa Swami wrote:

 

> > So my humble request is that the debate be allowed to continue.

>

> If the main point of the debate was whether in Vedic culture women have

> varna independent from their husbands, then there doesn't seem to be much

> more to discuss, as the fallacy of this position has been abundantly

> demonstrated.

 

 

Please accept my obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

 

I humbly beg that the way you have stated the above could be subject to

misinterpretation and misunderstanding, and perhaps uses terms that are not

clearly defined.

 

Syamasundara clearly pointed out, and there were ample sastric quotes to

confirm this, that women each have their own guna, which can be ascertained

through astrology, observation of their personality and activities, and their

family (the same methods for ascertaining a boy's varna). A girl should then,

ideally, be married to a boy of a suitable guna. At *that* point, her "varna"

is defined in relation to her husband, certainly, and one must understand that

(ideally) she was married to a particular man because she also had a similar

nature.

 

In other words, women are not all one homogenious class where any individual

woman can marry any man and automatically mold herself to his mentality.

Prabhupada writes that such a marriage between those of different castes will

entail great suffering for both the man and the woman; and such marriages are

particularly not approved if the woman is "higher."

 

At the same time, if it happens, as it does frequently in modern society, that

the man and woman have radically different castes, with the woman sometimes

being "higher," it is the woman's sastric dharma to do her very best to adjust

to her husband's mentality for the sake of a peaceful family and society. My

practical experience is that, even with very nicely trained and cultured

women, even such women from India, that such an adjustment to the husband can

be very difficult. Recently one devotee was speaking to me of a couple where

the man is obviously brahmincal, and said that the marriage was difficult

because the wife is a sudra....they are together serving Krsna and trying

their best, still the woman didn't become more "brahminical" simply because

she is a chaste, trained lady and her husband is brahminical. One can say such

is her fault--fine, but still it is what it is.

 

Then--on the level of varna. In a very real sense, all women are sudras

because they are not independent (as are the three higher castes) and because,

like sudras, they act as an *assitant* to their husband and male relatives.

One can also say they haven't the "karma" aspect of "varna" because

their *primary* duty is to their ashrama--of grhastha, vanaprastha, etc. At

the same time, historically, women generally assisted their husbands and male

relatives in the family business, whether that business was brahminical,

government, farming or business, or trade or domestic servant. Syamasundara

made the important point to me that whether or not a woman assists her husband

in the "karma" part of the "varna" is at the husband's discretion and under

his order. Such a point is most important and cannot be overlooked. It is also

of great importance that whatever a woman does to assist in the family

business cannot be at the expense of her basic household duties, child care,

etc.

 

With all the above caveats and albiets, married women in pre-industrial

society often if not generally were part of the economic support of the family

and society, though in a radically different way than we think of today.

 

Finally, I hope all of us acknowledge that our present situation is one where

a large portion if not the overwheming majority of women in and out of ISKCON

are in some sort of a "non-standard" or emergency situation. How to apply

varnasrama to our modern society, including India, including ISKCON, is not

simple nor can even the most clear and undisputed sastric statements about

women be preached and applied without individual consideration.

 

Your servant, Urmila devi dasi