Women's role and intelligence

[Guest guest]

Please accept my obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

 

We have to understand sastra, guru, and sadhu in a complete way, not by

selecting only some aspects.

 

It is true that women in general are classified as sudra because, like sudras,

they cannot be independent and because, like sudras, they work as assistants

to their male family members. It is also true that women's varna is classified

according to the varna of her husband. However, that is only *part* of the

picture. Consider (again):

 

"PURPORT

The men of the higher classes -- the brahmanas, ksatriyas and vaisyas -- do

not beget children in the wombs of lower-class women. Therefore the custom in

Vedic society is to examine the horoscopes of a girl and boy being considered

for marriage to see whether their combination is suitable. Vedic astrology

reveals whether one has been born in the vipra-varna, ksatriya-varna,

vaisya-varna or sudra-varna, according to the three qualities of material

nature. This must be examined because a marriage between a boy of the

vipra-varna and a girl of the sudra-varna is incompatible; married life would

be miserable for both husband and wife. Consequently a boy should marry a girl

of the same category."

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 6.2.26

 

 

1)Here, Prabhupada refers to boy *and girl* as being in the four varnas.

 

2)Astrology is given as one means of ascertaining that varna for both of them;

hence the girl's varna, or guna, or caste (in this purport, at least,

Prabhupada uses the word "varna") cannot be ascertained only or merely from

her father's family. Also there are innumerable references to the fact that

varna, or guna, or caste, cannot be determined solely by a person's birth.

Nowhere is an exception explicity made for women--that a man's qualities can

not be determined by birth, but a woman's can.

 

3)Although there are many places where it is stated that a woman should mold

herself after her husband, follow his vows, etc. in the above purport

Prabhupada states that married life will be miserable for both husband and

wife if they are not compatible before marriage in their varna, or guna, or

caste. Why? Obviously it's not so easy for a woman to mold herself to a man

who's of a very different nature. Particularly, a marriage between a higher

caste woman and lower caste man is not recommended, as it is difficult for a

woman to serve a man who is lower. Of course, a determined and dharmic woman

will do her best under such a circumstance of fate.

 

4)The fear that acknowledging that a women have different natures in ways

similar to the ways that men have different natures will lead to women having

careers out of the home, having excuses to look down on their husbands, and so

on, is not a good reason to deny both scripture and obvious fact. We need to

figure out ways to understand and apply the scriptures, not deny whatever we

fear may be misused. Saying that women are subordinate can be misused, as

well, and has been, by those who are abusive. Still, we should preach that

women should be subordinate and submissive to their male authorities.

 

I would like to end this discussion.

 

Your servant, Urmila devi dasi

[Guest guest]

On 8 Jul 2002, Mrgerald (AT) aol (DOT) com wrote:

 

> Therefore, the shastra informs us of only a single varnashrama system. The

> injunctions regarding the mutual distinctions between the four varnas and

women

> (as well as the subsequent dependence of women' varna identity on that of

> their protectors) are very relevant to Vaishnavas in Kali-yuga and cannot be

> filtered out under the rationalization of a fictitiously alternative

> "daivi-varnashrama" system or neglected because we are of the "bhakti

movement"

> or "bhagavat-parampara". Women's varna, according to the one and only

> varnashrama system of shastra, is a reflection of their protectors' varna.

To

> be taken seriously, the examples regarding women maintaining a varna status

> distinct from their husbands' changes need precedence in shastra.

 

Please accept my obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

 

Prabhu, did you receive the text where I quoted the purport where Prabhupada

states that if a man and woman of dissimilar varnas (he used the word varna)

marry, as *determined by astrology* (not the father's family, though, yes,

that would certainly also be considered) that both the girl and boy would be

miserable? I also sent a text some time ago where Prabhupada writes of the

guna of the boy and girl being determined by astrology (yes, I know that the

family and practical observation would also be considered) or again, both

would be miserable?

 

Please explain those two purports (and the many statements about not having

inter-varna marriage in general, especially where the woman is higher than the

man) so that both they *and* the statements about a woman's varna being that

of her husband are all harmonized. Please do not attempt such harmonization by

saying that a woman's varna/guna/caste is determined by birth family unless

you can find clear sastric evidence to support such a conclusion, evidence

that also harmonizes with the other evidence. I believe I have already given

such an explanation, but perhaps you felt it insufficient in some way. I am

surprised that, if you did find it insufficient, you haven't pointed out the

defect.

 

Your servant,Urmila devi dasi