Initiations in ISKCON

January 17, 2004

An open discussion regarding the initiations system in ISKCON.

The initiation system has undergone many modifications since Srila

Prabhupada's departure in 1977, and no doubt it will continue to evolve.

This conference will critically examine the successes and failures of

ISKCON's current initiation system. All viewpoints and analysyes are

welcome, however we ask that the devotees stick to the following ground

rules:

1. We ask that devotees support their philosophical points with evidence

from Srila Prabhupada's books or letters.

2. Please refrain from name calling and ad hominem attacks.

February 7, 2004

My Dear Vaisnavas,

Please accept my humble obeisances.

All glories to His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada.

Krishna Kant keeps telling us that to justify that Srila

Prabhupada's disciples can initiate disciples we have to defend

the GBC's position on this issue. This is not true. Srila

Prabhupada's mandate for his disciples to carry on the disciplic

succession by initiating their own disciples does not depend on

the GBC at all. It rests solely and wholly on the words of His Divine

Grace.

Of course the GBC as Prabhupada's appointed "watchdogs" of ISKCON do have a

responsibility to make sure that no one falsely poses himself as a guru

while remaining under the control of his six vegams. But it is not that

the GBC can create gurus by some kind of rubber stamp system. Gurus

manifest

themselves by their qualities and activities, not by GBC resolutions.

The opportunity on this PAMHO conference for a dialogue to bring

Srila Prabhupada's instructions clearly into focus will be fruitful

if we can always remain respectful to each other. Even though we

certainly strongly disagree with Krishna Kant and the IRM, still we can

have a cool headed discussion with him and other IRM members to hopefully

bring

them to the point of upgrading their philosophical understanding. In this

regard I want to emphasize that I am certainly open to being philosophically

upgraded if they can prove to me that Srila Prabhupada did not want

his disciples to become spiritual masters.

The most important thing is that while we discuss this issue we maintain the

highest standard of Vaisnava etiquette as if Srila Prabhupada was seeing

everything that

we are doing. Why should we do this? Because he is.

Regarding the point of Vaisnava etiquette I can never forget the wonderful

visit

I had to the Bangalore temple several years ago. Madhupandit Prabhu asked

me to give the Srimad Bhagavatam Class, which was very well received by all

of the

devotees. Then he and I took breakfast prasadam together and he spent the

better

part of the morning giving me a wonderful tour of the temple. As the

morning ended we

had a friendly discussion in his office and he gave me a valuable gift. I

still have

that gift and I value it very highly to this very day.

This nice mood of loving exchange and respectful dealings between devotees

should always remain the standard because Srila Prabhupada ordered us not

to fight amongst ourselves. We may sometimes disagree as to the best way

to please Srila Prabhupada, but we must never let our spiritual

disagreements

cause us to commit Vaisnava aparadha.

Vaisnava sanga ki jaya! ISKCON solidarity ki jaya!!

There is nothing sweeter in all the three worlds!!!

Hoping this meets you in good health,

Always your humble servant,

Sankarshan Das Adhikari

Krishna Desai [kkdesai (AT) vsnl (DOT) net]

Friday, February 06, 2004 4:40 AM

Vraj Eco Vill; Initiations in ISKCON

RE: Start at the beginning

Mr Dear Vaisnavas,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

1) First Samba Prabhu says he wants to leave the conference.

2) Then he comes back by attacking BTP.

3) Then he says he will not do a tit for tat on my reply.

4) Then he DOES try and do a tit for tat response.

5) Now he says we should forget all this and discuss something else.

At least he has the honesty to admit he is 'fickle'! Actually I did not

know whether to even respond, since maybe Samba Prabhu may have yet

ANOTHER suggestion by the time the evening comes! All the above seems

nothing more than a strategy to try and somehow distract attention from

the glaring fact that NO ONE has been able to take up my challenge to

defend the GBC's position. I am more than happy to move onto something

else, but let the conference FIRST agree that the GBC's current position

regarding 'Initiations in ISKCON' (The title of this conference) is

INCORRECT.

There is also nothing 'legalistic' about discussing the position of the

GBC - the body supposedly guiding ISKCON, the body that is supposed to

the managing authority of ISKCON, the body that all ISKCON devotees are

supposed to give their allegiance and loyalty to - in regards to

'Initiations in ISKCON', which is what the conference was set up to

discuss. And if we are to move on then let us at least agree that the

GBC position is not being defended by anyone on this conference because

it CAN'T be defended.

[Plus Samba Prabhu cannot even phrase the question below correctly. The

disciplic succession does NOT STOP if Srila Prabhupada continues as the

Guru. By 'loading' the question in this way, Samba Prabhu is simply

assuming that which needs to be proven.]

Your servant,

Krishnakant

Vraj Eco Vill [Vraj.Eco.Vill (AT) pamho (DOT) net]

Friday, February 06, 2004 1:41 PM

Initiations in ISKCON

Start at the beginning

Some devotees were discussing today and trying to get to the root of

theThe

issues in the ritvik debate. The irm's insistance that we focus on a

legalistic angle, seemed to us to be compromising the most important

aspect

of the argument: Is the disciplic succcession supposed to continue or

not?

There seem to be two positions:

1. Srila Prabhupada intended and instructed that he should

be the last and final spiritual master in his disciplic

succession (forever or--for some reason--for the next ten

thousand years).

2. Srila Prabhupada intended and instructed that his

disciples should in turn become spiritual masters and

make more disciples, and the disciplic succession should

continue.

If the first position is correct and the disciplic succession is

supposed to stop, there's no use talking about any particulars of how

it's supposed to continue, whether those particulars come from the GBC

or anyone else.

Only if the second position is correct and the disciplic succession is

supposed to continue need we talk about *how* it's supposed to

continue.

So let's not waste time by "starting in the middle." Let's begin at

the sensible beginning:

Is the disciplic succession supposed to stop?

Or is it supposed to continue?

Is Srila Prabhupada the last and final

spiritual master in his disciplic succession

or are his disciples supposed to become spiritual

masters too?

This is the fundamental question. So let's focus on it.

Your servant

Samba das

-----------------------

To from this mailing list, send an email to:

Initiations.in.ISKCON-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

February 7, 2004

My Dear Vaisnavas,

Please accept my humble obeisances.

All glories to His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada.

Sankarsana Prabhu has claimed:

"Krishna Kant keeps telling us that to justify that Srila Prabhupada's

disciples can initiate disciples we have to defend the GBC's position on

this issue."

I have not said this once, never mind having said it repeatedly!

The reasons I gave for discussing the GBC's position are in my reply to

Samba prabhu, and I will repeat them again here for Sankarsana Prabhu's

benefit:

" There is also nothing 'legalistic' about discussing the position of

the GBC - the body supposedly guiding ISKCON, the body that is supposed

to the managing authority of ISKCON, the body that all ISKCON devotees

are supposed to give their allegiance and loyalty to - in regards to

'Initiations in ISKCON', which is what the conference was set up to

discuss."

You see the GBC, like everyone else DOES have a justification as to why

Srila Prabhupada's disciples can initiate their own disciples. It has

also documented this position in writing. Now I have to choose whose

justification I should discuss. A body that represents the vast majority

of ISKCON, whose position is clearly documented, or numerous individuals

each with their own position as to what Srila Prabhupada really meant,

and whose position is NOT documented in a systematic fashion that anyone

can refer to, but rather evolves as you discuss it with them! I choose

the GBC each time.

Sankarsana (das) ACBSP (Austin, Texas - USA)

[sankarsana.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net]

Saturday, February 07, 2004 1:59 AM

Bhakti Charu Swami; Bir Krishna Goswami; Jayapataka Swami (GBC);

Purnacandra (das) ACBSP; Krishnakant; Mahashakti dasa; Sankarshan Das

Adhikari; Sudama das; Initiations in ISKCON

Re: Initiations in ISKCON

My Dear Vaisnavas,

Please accept my humble obeisances.

All glories to His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada.

Krishna Kant keeps telling us that to justify that Srila

Prabhupada's disciples can initiate disciples we have to defend

the GBC's position on this issue. This is not true. Srila

Prabhupada's mandate for his disciples to carry on the disciplic

succession by initiating their own disciples does not depend on

the GBC at all. It rests solely and wholly on the words of His Divine

Grace.

Of course the GBC as Prabhupada's appointed "watchdogs" of ISKCON do

have a

responsibility to make sure that no one falsely poses himself as a guru

while remaining under the control of his six vegams. But it is not that

the GBC can create gurus by some kind of rubber stamp system. Gurus

manifest

themselves by their qualities and activities, not by GBC resolutions.

The opportunity on this PAMHO conference for a dialogue to bring

Srila Prabhupada's instructions clearly into focus will be fruitful

if we can always remain respectful to each other. Even though we

certainly strongly disagree with Krishna Kant and the IRM, still we can

have a cool headed discussion with him and other IRM members to

hopefully

bring

them to the point of upgrading their philosophical understanding. In

this

regard I want to emphasize that I am certainly open to being

philosophically

upgraded if they can prove to me that Srila Prabhupada did not want

his disciples to become spiritual masters.

The most important thing is that while we discuss this issue we maintain

the

highest standard of Vaisnava etiquette as if Srila Prabhupada was seeing

everything that

we are doing. Why should we do this? Because he is.

Regarding the point of Vaisnava etiquette I can never forget the

wonderful

visit

I had to the Bangalore temple several years ago. Madhupandit Prabhu

asked

me to give the Srimad Bhagavatam Class, which was very well received by

all

of the

devotees. Then he and I took breakfast prasadam together and he spent

the

better

part of the morning giving me a wonderful tour of the temple. As the

morning ended we

had a friendly discussion in his office and he gave me a valuable gift.

I

still have

that gift and I value it very highly to this very day.

This nice mood of loving exchange and respectful dealings between

devotees

should always remain the standard because Srila Prabhupada ordered us

not

to fight amongst ourselves. We may sometimes disagree as to the best

way